A tale of two Tiger Dens (sorry, long first post!)

[3scoutsmom 10]

Hi everyone. I'm a Pack Committee Member, designated as a go between for the Tiger leaders and Pack leadership. The idea was that the new Tiger leaders would have someone to go to if they need assistance during the year. My youngest son is a Tiger and I have two older boys who are now Boy Scouts, so I guess I have some experience (although this is my first year as a leader.)

 

We have 12 Tigers, split into 2 dens, one with 8 boys, the other with 4 (was 5 but apparently one boy has dropped out.) The split was based on which night worked for the families, which is why the numbers aren't even. I myself had to choose a den based on my schedule, and became assistant Den Leader in the larger den.

 

The leader of our den has done a wonderful job. We have a shortened Pack year, but it looks like all the boys in this den will easily accomplish all the requirements for the Tiger Badge and quite a number of electives. The meetings are regular, fun, and the parents have been very responsive.

 

The smaller den is like the night to that den's day. Very long story short, they haven't earned any achievement beads at all, they've been meeting but doing what the den leader calls "crafts", completely unrelated to the handbook. There is no assistant, the one person who was interested was the one who dropped out. The leader hasn't called me once for help, and has turned down offers of assistance from me and from the other den leader. It seemed like all was well for the first few months, but obviously not.

 

Our Pack year ends in March, traditionally we don't hold regular meetings again until September (that's a whole nother issue!) There is simply not enough time for the boys in the smaller den to earn the Tiger rank before then, and it honestly looks like the parents aren't motivated to even try. The den leader accepts responsibility but seems to have an "oh well" attitude about the whole thing.

 

At this point I just want the boys to get some kind of reward, even if unofficial, when we award ranks to the other Tigers. They haven't been included in achievements during Pack meetings since they got their Tiger Totems in October.

 

I realize this is probably more of a vent than anything else, but I'm hoping there might be some ideas on how to encourage the boys to continue into Wolves, even if the boys most likely won't earn the Tiger Rank. I'd also love any hints on how to get more parents to become active- because at this point there will be no Wolf leadership for that den at all, and we as a Pack will not allow a den with more than 9 boys, so they can't all join the other den.

 

 

Thanks!

[JerseyJohn 10]

I am in a similar situation only with Webelo 1's. I had 13 Tigers in 2001-2002 and excellent parents who did whatever I asked. We had to break them into to Wolf dens due to the numbers. The other leader is somehwat less enthusiastic as I am. Thru Wolf, Bear and now Webelo 1 I have invited the other den to everything I am doing except for den meetings. All correspondence I send to my parents, I sent to the otehr dens parents.

 

I have a group email list for my den and the other den. When I am having an event, trip or whatever, I simply add the other den and extend an invite for them to participate if they would like. Sometimes one boy comes, sometimes all of them come.

 

When you do a discover trip or whatever, invite the others. Be sure to have the "ok" from the other den leader. Consider yourself that dens ADL. Since the parents must attend with the Tigers, there is no extra burden on you.

 

BTW, of the 13 Tigers that I had in 2001-2002, all are still with me except two who moved.

 

John

[SemperParatus 1]

3scoutsmom,

I guess I am a little thrown by the 'our pack year ends in March'! What happens in March? Do the scouts crossover to the next rank? Are these Tigers expecting to crossover to Wolves then? If not, then why not allow them to complete their Tiger Badge requirements after the Pack year-end (as a den) and cross them over when you get started up again in September?

 

Just reading your message, it sounds as if there are several problems - a short pack year, an untrained den leader with little understanding of the advancement program, and parents that don't know any better and are just going along with the den's 'unprogram'. The den leader's refusal of help and 'oh well' attitude is in need of serious adjustment. If she is unwilling to commit to some level of advancement work and following of the program outlined in the handbook, then she simply must be replaced with a den leader that will make such a commitment.

 

As for awards - is it possible to have the den leader at least review the handbook and what has been done, to figure out if some achievement beads have been earned? Does the pack provide Wolf neckerchiefs at crossover?

 

I would seriously look at extending the Tiger year for this den, stress to the den leader the advancement opportunities, and see if the year can be salvaged (its only been 3 months!). You and the CM should possibly schedule a meeting with the den parents to address. If everyone's attitude is 'oh well' then so be it...it may change when they actually see the other den receiving their awards.

[Twocubdad 665]

I'll second SP idea. Although we make a big deal of everyone moving up at the end of May, we also turn somewhat of a blind eye toward the timing of any advancement during the summer. If a boy need more time in the summer to finish last year's rank, fine. If he wants to get started on next year's (which most do as summer camp), that's okay too.

 

Besides getting the TDL trained, I would also involve the Cubmaster and Committee Chairman. (Although if these are the ones coming up with the goofy schedule, I don't know that they will be much help.) The pack is in great danger of loosing these five boy and someone needs to intervene NOW. It isn't the Den Leader's den to do with as she wishes. Here commitment is to deliver the program as it is outlined by BSA. If she wants to simply do crafts, she needs to start a different club for that.

 

Point out to her that coming up with a craft out of the blue every week is a whale of a lot tougher than to simply follow the program. Franlky, most of the Tiger stuff is pretty basic and easy to execute.

[cajuncody 10]

I see problems in this on so many different levels. But to stick to the point ...

Why can't they complete the Tiger Requirements. They may not get any electives but I was TDL last year and remember the book very well. You could handle the den items more than one at a time in a meeting and just really push the go see its, combine some. Do the hike and the historical site at the time at the same place if possible. The Fire department could be on the way to the TV station, just add plenty of time and a gathering at the next school level game would cover the other. I know that you will hear about "rushing" things not being good for the program but it is no good for the program to have Tigers not getting awards. I would rather rush and combine (as long as it stays fun for the boys) and get them their badges then to lose them due to lack of interest because the feel left out of the awards process.

If nothing else, can you atleast get them a belt loop or two?

I will await the reprecussions of my opinion now in the corner under my soap box.

Kristi

[ScoutNut 147]

I'm with the others. The rest of your Pack may turn into ducks come April, but there is no need for these Tigers to!

 

As the "designated as a go between" have you attended any of the meetings of this other Den? Why wasn't this spotted sooner? Is Shared Leadership being used? Is anyone in this Pack TRAINED????

 

Sheesh!!!!

[Its Me 10]

Cajuncody I absolutely agree with you. A solid effort over 8 - 10 weeks can get an entire tiger den to rank and even get a few electives. An ambitious parent may be able to do the tiger program in two weeks. Its only 12 requiremnets. Many are go see'em and home based family activities.

 

 

[CubsRgr8 10]

3scoutsmom, why does the program end in March? A boy is a Tiger until he's promoted to 2nd grade, so there's plenty of time to earn their Tiger ranks. If there are no pack meetings again until next fall, that's okay. Recognition can occur at summer camp, a pack picnic before school starts, or the first fall pack meeting.

[fotoscout 15]

We had similar problem with our Tigers at the beginning of this year. One den had an experienced DL and the other had a new DL. By our November pack meeting it was apparent that in spite of a huge effort to help the new DL, he just didnt get it. The parents and the boys all recognized that the other den was having regular den meetings, doing Go See Its, and receiving beads, while this den was not.

 

The experienced DL communicated with the new DL on a regular basis, we coached the new DL to the best of our ability, and this guy still didnt get it. For legitimate reasons he could not get to training. I cant begin to tell you how much time we spent with this guy. I spent over an hour with the guy explaining the achievements, beads, den meetings, Go See Its, Family Activities, and the Tiger Program in general, the guy looked at me and asked, How do they get the badge? Ultimately we had to combine the dens, with the understanding that next year the den will be split up. I suspect that splitting the den will be painful, but its the right thing to do.

 

We did our jobs and paid close attention to what was going on. Fortunately for everyone, especially the boys we stepped in before any damage was done.

 

[jens3sons 10]

I see a problem here that no one has addressed...Why is there not 2 deep leadership? I know you mentioned the assistant leader dropped out. It is so important to get someone to replace this position. Without 2 deep leadership, there shouldn't be a den! A reminder about the 2 deep leadership as well....married couples who are both leaders in the same den is NOT considered 2 deep.

 

Although having 12 boys in one den is a large #, I would consider combining the dens. We have 12 boys alone in one Tiger cub den this year as well. Our split would've also have been 8 and 4 because of location, but because I couldn't get a 5th leader (2 leaders are a married couple, thus not being 2 deep) I used BSA regulations to be my "blame" and forced it to be one den. The benefit...I have 4 very dedicated leaders, and never have to worry about 2 deep leadership, since there is always a back-up person.

 

(The other factor in our decision was if one or more of the boys dropped out of the smaller den, it would REALLY be a small den, and would probably require combining the two into one next year. However if more boys join as wolves next year, it still gives me the opportunity to split the den into 2.)

 

Talk to the Cub Master and committee about this and then I would suggest combining the 2 dens and using BSA regulations (even make it that council/district is getting on your case about this if necessary) as the "bad guy" here. No need for you to take the heat for forcing the proper decision here. Good Luck!

[ScoutNut 147]

There is no BSA regulation about 2-Deep leadership for den meetings. The 2-Deep regulation is for trips and outings ONLY.

 

There is also no BSA regulation that states that a married couple can not be the only leaders.

 

Your Pack, or your council, might have these additional requirements, but they are NOT from BSA National.

[jens3sons 10]

ScoutNut, I did some research after your reply to my post. You are right BSA requires 2 deep for only trips and outings. During my training it was stressed so much about 2 deep leadership I thought it applied to everything. Also during my training it was stated that married couples were not considered 2 deep. I can't find anything that says one way or another at the moment...but there are really good reasons for it. Anyways, regardless, this is something our pack believes in, even at den meetings...it doesn't necessarily have to be another leader, but another parent attending the den meeting at minimal. BSA does it's best to set guidelines/requirements for us all, but sometimes it is a good idea to go above and beyond just that.

[EagleInKY 14]

Also, many people get two-deep leadership and one-on-one contact confused. There should never be one-on-one contact in any situation (except for with your own child). Therefore, even at troop meetings, an adult should never be behind closed doors alone with someone else's son. Sometimes I may have a Scoutmaster's conference off to the side or "around the corner", but I know they are fully in public view and anyone can walk in at any time.

 

Two-deep leadership is always a good idea. It protects you and the boys. I've had a couple of instances during meetings where I was the only adult present. As long as we avoid the one-on-one situation, we're fine. But, I agree, it's always a good idea to go above-and-beyond. Therefore, we always try to have two deep in any situation. As for the married couple, I assume that's just another way of going above-and-beyond. As long as you treat it as a "best practice" instead of a "policy", I have no problem with it.

[ScoutNut 147]

There isn't a real need for Asst Den Leaders in the Tiger Den. If the den is run correctly, the Tiger Den Leader is more of a coordinator. Each boy must have a Adult Partner with him at all times. That more than covers any 2-deep problems. The Den should also be run using Shared Leadership. This means that each family should be taking turns running Den meetings.

 

Once the Den Leader gets to know the other parents they can find one who they can work with as an Asst. Den Leader starting in their Wolf year.