Poor Training?

[Laurie 10]

I'm not sure I'm new anymore (sure feel like I've been at this for a long time!), but here's my take on training:

 

My first training session was BALOO. It was the first offered, and I went. I loved it. It was the first BALOO course offered at the district level in the council last year, and only 2 from our district came and 3 from a neighboring district. The trainer loves Scouting, knows what he is doing, and was able to clearly present the materials. There was some time allowed for questions, and I had many. The other trainers there were all good, some dull and some enthusiastic, but all very capable and desiring to help us to learn.

 

I came home excited, talked it up in the pack, and 3 leaders went to the next training session of BALOO--a year later.

 

I was invited to roundtables during this training, and I go to every one. At roundtables I have received Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat trainings, but best of all have met with other unit leaders and learned a lot about how to apply what was learned.

 

When YP, NLE, and position specific was offered, I went with 3 others. We all had been actively involved for a year at this point, but it was the first time this course was offered. We all came home feeling we had benefitted, and we implemented some changes in program. I liked the Ages and Stages part--learned a lot in that. The den leaders like the den leader training and came home ready to build up their meetings, which were already good, but now they were easier and more fun. Not one of us felt it was a waste of time though we all wished more could have been covered.

 

We liked it and talked about, so those who had missed it signed up for the next course a few months later. Two went. Both are den leaders, and both are good den leaders, but they came home with new ideas and an enthusiasm they hadn't had before.

 

Funny thing: I've been promoting Program Helps and Themes. It hasn't caught on. BUT these last 2 who took training--they wanted to know if we could do themes and wanted to know where that book was. Do you mean this one I ask as I pull my copy out of my tote that goes to every meeting? Whatever took place in training, it made things that have been talked about finally fall into place. The one leader said I knew you had this book, knew themes sounded good, but in training it all just seemed so clear. That's the key -- it brought the tools available to light and to life.

 

The leaders have been asking me what training comes next. Training does not get promoted to the units very well, not even through roundtable, so this is a weak area that could be improved. The training team is trying to work on that too. They are small, but they are good. Did I learn new things? Yes, even those things that were familiar were seen in a different light by me. Quite frankly, I anticipate taking some of the same classes again because I know the first time was just a little overwhelming. This time I will be able to evaluate what I do as a leader as I go through the training.

 

This is all Cub training. My husband wants to know what comes between SM training (which he took) and Wood Badge. He said there must be more because he felt the SM training did not cover a lot. I thought that odd because he spent 2 nights of classroom training then a full week-end away putting into practice what was learned. He loved it. I asked him if he felt he understood the program. He said yes, training was great for that. So I asked him what more he wanted. He grinned, realizing where I was going with this. I look at training as the opportunity to learn the basics, then we learn more as we put them into practice. So it looks like he's off to Wood Badge after all if it's not too late

 

In this unit and the unit my husband started out with, regardless of how long one was leading or how new one was, the training provided a fresh perspective and a chance to evaluate if we were doing what Scouting is designed to do.

[Eamonn 61]

Eaglewings2002

Of course I can't give you a good reason to want to attend training's. I don't know you. I don't know know what your needs are. I don't know the area in which you live. I can't tell you if your local zoo offers a discount for Scouts or what the Cub Scout camping policy is in your council. I can't tell you if your Council Camps allow you to use liquid fuel stoves.I can't tell you if there has been problems with your chartered organization in the past. I can't give you the E-mail address of the person to contact about high adventure programs in your Council. I can't tell you what sort of facilities camp whatever has.

I don't know if you need any of this sort of information. Sad as it might this sort of information will never be covered by a On line Training.

I'm not sure if that answers the question as to why these can't be offered on line?

Most of the Scouter's that attend training's even if they do know a lot about the material that is being presented and even if the presentation isn't that great do find that by being there they can share what they know with others and other Scouter's can share their ideas and experiences with them. While this is no excuse for poor presentations, even this would seem to invalidate "In ALL cases I found that I did not learn anything that I did not already know."

Eamonn

[Twocubdad 665]

Eamonn and Scoutldr nailed the problems with training earlier. The problem with Cub position specific training is structural. When CS Basic Leader Training was scrapped a few years ago in lieu of the current system, all the basic program info (organization, advancement, uniforms) was pushed into position specific courses.

 

That causes three main problems:

 

First, this basic info is repeated in every course. Bob White is correct that the training needs to be geared to the untrained leader taking the course for the first time. But the training overlooks the fact that many, many leaders track along through the program with their Scouts. (Hence Webelos leaders throwing themselves out of windows when the trainer yet again pulls out the Pin the Badge on the Cub Scout game.) The greatest complaint we hear about training is that it was all a repeat of the last course. And the order the courses are taken doesn't matter. Subsequent courses alway repeat the first because they all plow the same ground. This is a direct result of how the overall system of position specific courses are organized.

 

The second problem is that repeating all the basics pushes out more of the games and activities which I think is what most new Cub Leaders are looking for. Granted, that info is available at Roundtable and Pow-Wows, but telling folks they'll have to come back for that info is frustrating for the trainees and doesn't help them answer their Number One question: what do I do with these eight boys this coming Monday night?

 

Third is the problems cause for the training committees trying to organize five separate courses. Ten-to-fifteen people would be a great turn out for a Scoutmaster Fundamentals course, but when you divide that over five position specific courses, it's hard to justify each individual course. And this may just be a problem for our local trainers, but with the emphasis on Powerpoint, they are having a problem finding facilities with five separate "smart classrooms" to conduct the training.

 

I think a re-shuffling is in order and would suggest the following:

 

-- Combine Tiger and Cub Leader training. With the push to integrate Tigers into the Cub program this makes sense. Plus, there has never been enough difference between the programs to warrant two courses.

 

-- Combine Webelos Leader position specific with Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. I don't understand why training committees don't do this now, tacking the two courses together. Given a choice of completing the training all at once versus taking two or more weekends, most folks will want to do it all at once.

 

-- Combine Cubmaster and Committee Member training into one one "Pack Leader" training. The current Commitee specific course is the most useless of the bunch. I can also see the advantage of having mutiple leaders cross-trained at the Cubmaster level.

 

This plan would address the first and third problems well, but the second on less so. Being able to include more Pow-Wow-like material is simply a matter of finding the time. Unfortunately, the most popular way of doing training is to get it all done in one day, Fast Start and New Leaders' Essentials in the morning and position-specific in the afternoon. I like the NLE course and think the idea of all BSA volunteers understanding the big picture of the program is a good one. But using the morning for Fast Start and NLE is what has forced all the basic Cub Scout material into the position specific courses. While I like NLE, I'd still like to see the Cub p-s coursed tweaked to accommodate more games, skits and activities.

 

Related to that, let me ask a question regarding Fast Start. Our local trainers treat Fast Start as a separate course required for "trained" status. As a result, the first hour of the training day is spend with everyone viewing the FS videos. Seems to me this hour could be better spent. My understanding of FS was that it has always been part of the required training, it was originally considered as much a recruitment tool as it was training. When a new leader agrees to take on a position, they were given the FS video with the idea that it was a quick overview of the program to tide them over until they could take the full training course. It seems redundant to have everyone sit through FS and then jump right in to NLE and position specific. How is this handled in other councils?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[scoutldr 732]

Thanks, twocub. You echoed my sentiments exactly. It is very frustrating as a trainer to have to tell Den Leaders in an April course, "of course come September when you become a WL, you are no longer trained and have to take WL training which is 75% a repeat of this course." In fact, this is so stressful that I am thinking of stepping down as a trainer and trying some other underserved position, such as Commissioner.

 

As to Fast Start, our training is advertised as "Fast Start training is a prerequisite". Then I just assume they have all had it, realizing, of course that in reality very few have done it.

[Eamonn 61]

Our District Training Chairs have made sure that each unit has a copy of the Fast Start Tapes. As these seem to get lost there are extras. The DE, the District Commissioner and the Training Team all have extra copies and I seem to have a garage full of tapes. The only thing that seems to disappear faster is the Guide that goes along with the tape and what's worse is that people don't ask for a replacement copy. So what seems to be happening is that the new guy is just given a tape to watch and that's that.

While I like most, in fact nearly all of the suggestions that Twocub Dad has come up with. Here is an idea that I have been toying with.

As I keep telling everyone I am a very lazy person. I only got involved as Cubmaster because it looked easy. The fact that I later got involved with a Webelos Scout Den, was totally unplanned.

Now it could be that I was doing something wrong, but the guy who had even less to do then the Cubmaster was the Assistant Cubmaster.As I have posted we as a District seem to lose about half the Tiger Cubs that we recruit. I wonder what would happen if we done away with the position of Assistant Cubmaster and made the Tiger Den Leader a Tiger Den Leader/ Pack Trainer position? This person would be working with the new parents in the Tiger Den and could set them off on the right foot. He or She would ensure that the Tiger Den was getting a quality program. I don't know how many new leaders most packs select in a year but unless the Pack Trainer is doing the job that the old Den Leader Coach was doing, the work load of a Pack Trainer isn't that great and once a Tiger Den is up and running he or she could step back a little.

I am aware that as things are at present you can't do this and get your charter to go through. It's just an idea that still needs work.

Looking at Training in general. I know that I'm biased but one of the things that has made Wood Badge so great is the fact that most of the people who take Wood Badge are the people who want to be there. Where as at times the people who attend the other training's feel that they have to be there and it becomes "Let's get this done and out of the way." This really does put a heavy responsibility on the District Training Team. Very often we as a Council will pick the brightest and the best to staff a Wood Badge Course, and not really think that we need to do the same for the "Early Training's". We really do need as Trainers to be aware that if we don't deliver the goods at the very first training, those attending will leave not wanting to come back.

While I'm all for Pow Wow and round table the fact is that at times we are lucky to have one person from a pack attend round table and they are there to get the latest news on District Events and what is going on in the Council. We have in our Council a group of Pow- wowers!! They just love Pow Wows, but during my term as Council Training Chair the most we ever got to attend a Pow Wow was 86, from a Council with over 100 packs. Even with only ten adults in each pack and only half of them attending we ought to have seen a lot more. Sad to say it was "On my watch" that we decided to give Pow Wow a rest. This even though the survey that the participants turned in at the end was full of kind words.

In our District we see about 60 new Cub Scout Leaders a year at training and I joke that there is a big black hole somewhere as I never see them again. I visit Day Camp and I see lots of parents who have taken time off work too help out and when I ask what position they hold in their pack the answer is none, and when I ask why? they reply that no one has asked.

While I disagree with On Line Training, I do think that there is a place for On Line Round Tables?? Not to replace the real thing, but as another way of trying to improve the quality of the program that our kids receive. No on line program will ever replace the comradeship and fellowship that happens when a bunch of Scouter's get together.

Eamonn

[scoutldr 732]

On line roundtables? Isn't that what we're doing here???

[Bob White 20]

It is very frustrating as a trainer to have to tell Den Leaders in an April course, "of course come September when you become a WL, you are no longer trained and have to take WL training which is 75% a repeat of this course."

 

What it is, is very poor scheduling on the District/councils part. Why after they have been den leaders for two years and are moving to Webelos in 30-days would you invite them to get trained for the job they are leaving?

 

This is not the training contiuums fault, this is poor local administration of it.

 

Consider this. NLE and Den leader training and Cubmaster training is done in the late summer/early fall for Cub Leaders entering a new den level or position of responsibility. It is then done in late spring for people who will be starting new spositions in the fall. In the winter and early spring do the pack committee training and train Pack Trainers.

 

On-line Roundtables have existed for years now in councils where overwhelming geographic size of the District makes regular meetings almost impossible. You do not need national BSA to tell you you can do it. This is a local council decision.

 

The contiuum works because the den structure and activities in Tigers is far different from the other ranks. Some basic info is repaeted a year later in Wolf/Bear beacuse not all the participants were Tiger leaders and even if they were it has been a year since they learned it (if they even attended trainng), and a few minutes for refresher won't hurt them.

 

Wolf/bear training is good for two program years. before they return for Webelos Training. Some basic info is reviewed because not all particiapants attended their training before as they should have, or they are new, or it has been two years since they learned it and a few minutes of refresher won't hurt them.

 

Webelos training is separate because it has a very different advancement, uniforming and den structure as well as a different outdoor program.

 

Cubmaster and Committee are separate for a very good reason, the jobs are different.

 

One more thing. The uniform game can be altered between Wolf/Bear and Webelos sessions. Nothing says you can't focus on the Webelos awards for the Webelos course and the Wolf/Bear awards for the Wolf/Bear leaders. This is one of those situations where the abilities of the trainer makes a difference.

 

I hope this helps to explain some of the areas that have been brought up so far.

 

 

[Herms 10]

I have been watching this thread and have seen lots of great ideas (some of which I have printed out and will bring up at the Adult Training Development Conference this weekend).

 

After talking with my wife again about some of the things I've heard in this discussion, I think her frustration was with the Tiger Specific training. She liked the Youth Protection and New Leader Essentials, but thought that they spent to much time on those, and not enough time learning how to run, and what to do during den meetings, i.e. activities, games etc. (guess she'll have to learn it from me, Ha! Ha!)

 

She is brand new to Boy/Cub Scout leadership (but has done lots of parent activities) and I think part of her expectation of the training was she was looking for ideas. I like Twocubdad's idea of merging the Tiger and Cub training to get a few "more experienced" leaders in with the newbies for just such ideas.

 

I have heard in a lot of the posts that it may be because of the trainer and not the material. Like many other councils, I guess it is in part because we don't have enough trainers, and that the ones we do have are adding an additional "duty" to their already busy schedules, like me where I fill as Cubmaster and an ASM. I like LPC_Thumper's ideas on preparation. I think that if we trainers know the material better we can then focus on adding the enthusiasm and energy to the presentation.

 

Like some others, I don't much care for the idea of online Specific training, as some of the best benefits of the training I have attended was the interaction and exchange of ideas I got from other Scouters (kind of like this forum).

 

On a few Saturdays, the schedule has the leaders going to Youth Protection, New Leader Essentials and then the Specific trainings. My thought is that maybe this is trying to cram too much at leaders (especially new ones) into one day.

 

With so much to teach/review, are we doing the Specific training an injustice and losing the quality by lack of time?

 

How has weekday evenings worked for others out there?

 

Another suggestion presented to me through a private message was to maybe bring in some volunteer boys from some packs to demonstrate a den meeting or pack meeting?

 

Would this be appropriate? And would it be beneficial?

 

Lastly, our council holds the training about 3 or 4 times a year, in different districts. Is this enough?

 

Keep the thoughts flowing.

 

Thanks,

 

Herms

 

P.S. The only place I have voiced my (and other leaders) concerns of the training was this forum. Shhhhh.

I guess that is why I am getting involved at a higher level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Laurie 10]

I would love to have had more time in the leader specific break-out time. That to me just flew by, and I know more could have been covered just because we had such a lively discussion going too--everyone wanted to know the how-tos not just have an explanation of what to do. That would not have allowed for everything to be covered in the time allowed though.

 

That said, I had quite a suprise when I observed the Den Chief training. It was almost all hands-on. Some boys were leading the "den meeting" or teaching games to the other boys--then they switched. It was fast paced, packed with lots of things, only a few hours long, and so much fun the time flew. I learned more about being a CM by observing this 4 hour course than I did in any other training; it looked to me like a pack meeting in action -- so yes, I think seeing a meeting in action does help, even if it's a pretend one such as that I just mentioned. I went to learn how to best utilize our Den Chiefs, but I came home realizing how simple it can be to have a ton of fun during meetings. The adult training is far less hands-on, and for me, though it was a beneficial time, the youth training was more fun and therefore "stuck" better. The leader training provided me with what I should be doing; the Den Chief training provided me with how I should be doing it. Hmmm... maybe that says more about this leader than the training (This message has been edited by Laurie)

[Bob White 20]

As a trainer with limited time (due more to the participants time constraints then to my own) I can teach more craft and activity ideas by teaching the resources available such as the Cub Scout Song Book, How To Book, Pack Program Help, Ceremonies for Packs and Dens, Den Sparklers, and Boys' Life, then I could teach by actually doing the crafts during the training. That activity is better used in Roundtables and Pow Wows.

 

If your wife was not shown the many resources where crafts, songs, skits and ceremonies can be found, as well as the thematic agendas for an entire year available in the Program Helps book then the trainer did her an injustice by not following the training syllabus.

[FScouter 24]

Den Chief is an all day training. If yours was only 4 hours its no wonder it was fast paced. What did you think of the lunch activity?

[margo12 10]

I have read this whole thread with great interest, as I am about to conduct my first training session in 10 days (Cubmaster)...I am determined to do a good job at it, since that is the whole reason I decided to become a trainer. I attended 1 position-specific training where we were all in a room together the whole time regardless of position. I then attended a second training that was horrible. I have only been a Cubmaster for a little over a year, but as soon as I was done with TDC they were ready to have me conduct trainings.

 

I have been busily working on writing the presentation highlights on index cards so I don't have to read it from the book, but can just glance at my cards. I have the powerpoint presentation, I have created the Parking Lot poster and I am working on the uniforming game materials.

 

Every time I look through the materials I discover more I am supposed to do...I just noticed something about setting up a den doodle in the room as part of the room decorations...I guess now I have a reason to work on my Pack's den doodles. Wow, this is turning out to be quite the undertaking, but after this it will be easier.

 

Anyway, I am hoping that if I teach the material in the syllabus, and answer all the questions in the parking lot and stay afterwards to answer any additional questions, that people can walk away feeling like it's been worth their while. Wish me luck.

[OneHour 11]

margo12 ... I have been on both sides of the fence, a trainer and a student. From the trainer perspective, I would say cover all of the BSA ways of being a cubmaster, but add on there the "real-life" experiences and the hows-to (examples)while you are presenting these sections. Remember, most (I would say 80%) of your class have already been in the position anywhere from 1 month to 3 months (sometimes more). They are there to: 1)satisfy the requirement of being a trained leaders (these will be your critics) and 2) looking for advices on how to do it better or differently. Rarely, will you find someone who is there just becasue he/she is inspired to be a cubmaster, but you'll find them, too. Provide a lot of information (on CDs preferably) like songs, skits, plan for pinewood derby, raingutter regatta, etc that you or others in your District have successfully conducted and would like to share. Include Internet resources on paper or CD where these folks can find things. Bring in guest speakers (ex-CM) to share what they did that went so great and how they did that.

 

I go a lot of feedback such as ... "this is a waste of time, I already knew that. I just want to know what else do people do at other Packs." "I'm totally lost. How do I conduct a Pack meeting? How do I make it fun?" etc....

 

 

From a student point-of-view, when I sat there looking for answers, I wished that the class would have: 1) been divided into experience CM and in-experience CM and 2) more discussion time so that I can learn from other experienced CM.

 

Good Luck

 

1Hour

[FScouter 24]

There are 101 enhancements you can use to supplement what is in the syllabus and support materials. The dilemna always is how to cover the basic required material, add the enhancements, and still keep the training session to a reasonable length. I's say there is no way to do everything in one session. Skip the enhancements. End your session by inviting everyone to come to the monthly Roundtable meetings. There they can learn more, talk to other leaders, and benefit from their experiences.

[OneHour 11]

Fscouter and Eamonn ... I agree with you completely. The basics should be taught. I guess that our Roundtable could use some changes to include the supplemental stuffs. When I was the one who sit out there, I knew and was practicing most of what the syllabus provided, so the training session was a waste of time. I wished at that time that I could find out what other CMs were doing differently or where they get the resources (this was during POW WOW).