Webelos Scouts' Use Of Scout Sign

[Adrianvs 10]

While it seems obvious that a Webelos scout would use the Scout sign when reciting the Scout Oath or Law, it has come to my attention that this may be the normative sign given by the den if they choose. In other words, it appears that a new Webelos den may begin using the Scout Oath and Law in place of the Cub Scout Promise and Law (at least during den activities). Is this the case? Can the den permanently "upgrade" to the Scout Oath and Sign when it sees fit? If this is the case, then does that make the normative salute for the Webelos den the Boy Scout salute? Does it at least give them the choice of which salute to use?

[ScoutNut 147]

To earn his Webelos rank a Webelos Scout must demonstrate the BS salute, sign, and handshake and explain when to use them. They must also explain the BS Oath, Law, Motto & slogan. To earn his AOL he must memorize and explain the BS Oath & Law.

 

What better way to memorize something than to say/do it repeatedly. I think using these every week as a part of their den meetings is a great idea.

[Bob White 20]

For the AOL the scout neds learn about Scout Sign and Salute. part of that is not just knowing how to do them but when to.

 

According to the Boy Scout Handbook The Scout sign is used when saying The Boy Scout Oath and the Boy Scout Law, and when you want a group to queit done and pay attention. The Boy Scout Salute is used to show Respect to the Flag When in your Boy Scout Uniform.

 

The Cub Scout handbooks all say that the Cub Scout sign is to be used when saying the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack, and when you want a group to be quiet and pay attention. The Cub Scout Salute is for Showing respect for the flag in When in a Cub Uniform.

 

So it would seem to me that the thing to do would be to follow the handbooks. Yes?

[Adrianvs 10]

The Cub Fast Start Guide instructs Webelos dens to open meetings with either the Scout Oath and Law or the Cub Scout Oath and Law. The video images provided for online Fast Start training show Webelos Scouts using the Scout sign while reciting the Scout Oath or Law. This seems to indicate that a Webelos den may (or is encouraged to) use the Scout Oath and Law (and thus Sign) exclusively. IF a den were to use the Scout Oath, Law and Sign exclusively, then would the Scout salute be used normatively by the Webelos as well. The designations based on uniforms are not helpful as it is not clear whether a Webelos scout's uniform is the "Boy Scout Uniform" or "Cub Scout Uniform." Is there a qualitative difference between the tan Webelos uniform and the blue one? Should the "tan" Webelos scouts use the Scout sign for salutes and the "blue" Webelos scouts the Cub Sign? Should the den use the same salute?

 

So it would seem to me that the thing to do would be to answer the question without an arrogant and condescending pretense that the answer is obvious. Yes?

[Bob White 20]

I'm simply pointing out that the answer is in the handbooks, not in personal opinions.

 

You use the Scout Sign when doing the Scout Oath or Law, you use the Cub Sign when doing the Cub Scout Promise or Law of the Pack. You use the Boy Scout Salute when in a Boy Scout Uniform and the Cub Scout Salute when in a Cub Scout Uniform. The Webelos tan shirt is a Cub Scout Uniform.

 

Webelos should use the appropriate sign for the appropriate oath and the appropriate salute for the appropriate uniform. So no, they should not permanently switch to the Scout Sign.

 

Please do not look at it as an upgrade. Cub Scouting is just as important as Boy Scouting. They are different, not greater or lesser. That to me is condescending.

 

Can they use the Boy Scout Oath and Law for Den meetings? That is a good learning tool from time to time, but they are still Cubs and should continue to pledge to the Cub Promise and Law of the Pack as well. The purpose of Webelos is to prepare them for Boy Scouts not to be Boy Scouts.

 

BW

[Adrianvs 10]

"Can they use the Boy Scout Oath and Law for Den meetings? That is a good learning tool from time to time, but they are still Cubs and should continue to pledge to the Cub Promise and Law of the Pack as well."

 

Please inform the authors of the Fast Start Guide of this as they continue to list the Cub Scout Promise as an option for den meetings after the Scout Oath or Law.

 

"Opening...Recite the Scout Oath or Scout Law, or the Cub Scout Promise or Pledge of Allegiance."

 

"Closing...Or they can recite the Scout Oath, Cub Scout Promise, or Scout Law, if not done earlier in the meeting."

 

These words seem to indicate that either may be used by Webelos dens. If any is to be favored by the Guide, it seems to be the Scout Oath as it is consistently listed first. In addition, the aformentioned video clips feature Webelos dens reciting the Scout Oath or Law and not the Cub Scout Promise. Granted, this emphasis may be merely to demonstrate that Webelos dens have the OPTION of using the Scout Oath, Law, and Sign, but it gives no indication that dens should do this only "from time to time" or that they should continue using the Cub Scout Promise.

 

This emphasis and indication in the Fast Start literature may very well be contrary to the handbook passages. Maybe it is an exception to the rules described in the passages. Perhaps the Fast Start Guide merely gives the wrong impression and the Scout Oath and Law are to be used only "from time to time." Perhaps the handbook is describing a general rule and fails to indicate a legitimate option (demonstrated elsewhere) for Webelos dens. What say ye?

 

BTW, I was wrong to characterize the passing from a "We'll Be Loyal Scouts" Scout to a loyal Scout as an upgrade. What was I thinking? How condescending of me.. One more question, though. Are the ranks within a program greater and lesser or are they merely different, too?

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"BTW, I was wrong to characterize the passing from a "We'll Be Loyal Scouts" Scout to a loyal Scout as an upgrade. What was I thinking? How condescending of me.. One more question, though. Are the ranks within a program greater and lesser or are they merely different, too?"

 

Boy Scouts cannot be an upgrade from Cub Scouts or Webelos because they are different programs for different age groups. They are stepping stones along the same trail. To imply that one is an upgrade, means that the other has less value and probably should have been skipped if possible.

 

You raise a good question about ranks. I question if they should even be called ranks. A Life Scout has no more power and commands no more respest than a Tenderfoot just by virtue of his rank. Perhaps we should call them awards.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Sorry AdrianVS,

I thought from your first post you were asking a question, I had no idea that you had already made your decision.

 

It seems to me that Fastart and I have said the same thing, it should be a mixture of both, That while they are LEARNING about Boy Scouts, they ARE still Cub Scouts.

 

 

 

 

[Adrianvs 10]

Bob WhiTE,

 

"I thought from your first post you were asking a question, I had no idea that you had already made your decision."

 

The first question was whether the den may begin using the Scout Oath and Law exclusively. The second question was whether the normative salute for Webelos Scouts doing so would be the Scout salute.

 

You remarked that the Scout Oath and Law should only be used from time to time. This (despite being a reasonable personal opinion) is not indicated by the Fast Start training or handbook. The issues are closely related, but not the same.

 

 

FOG,

 

Good point about rank. Perhaps we should call them merit badges.. Wait, that is already taken. Hmm.. What about "affirmation levels?" No, "level" is too..leveled. Hmm.. To call them awards would indicate that having the award is a state of greater value than not having the award. Since each state (having and not having the award) is entirely appropriate to the skills demonstrated by the boy, then one state must not be better than another. Having and not having the rank (or award) are both stepping stones along the same trail. Given this, we can't call them awards either. Drat. Alright, lets just call them "left pocket patches." "Badge" seems to indicate too much of a value to the state of possessing it.

 

Seriously though, "upgrade" probably wasn't the right word. That is likely why I put it in quotes. While the programs themselves are of equal value for the age of the boys in them, it would be a mistake to think that the skill levels and experiences acquired by the boys as they pass from rank to rank (and program to program) are not improvements. An upgrade isn't always something completely new replacing something previous. In many cases, it consists in adding to and building upon that which previously existed.

[Adrianvs 10]

By the way, Bob, you did answer my question about the salutes. Even if the Webelos scouts were using the Scout Oath and Law most of the time, they would still salute with the Cub Scout salute.

 

I do appreciate your answers even if I contest some of the premises used to formulate them.. ;-)

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Some of us remember when the BSA did stop using the term "rank," at least for Boy Scouts. (I am not sure about Cub Scouts.) During my last 4 years as a Boy Scout, Tenderfoot through Eagle were called "Progress Awards." I think "Scout," introduced at that time, has always been a "badge," not a "rank." I wasn't around for the change back from "progress award" to "rank," I suspect it occurred either in the late 70's when a lot of the 1972-73 "new stuff" was "changed back" or modified, or in the early 80's.

 

I do sometimes hear boys trying to "pull rank" on each other, as in "I'm First Class and you're only Tenderfoot so you have to do what I say." When I do hear this and the circumstances permit, I gently remind the rank-puller that rank does not equal leadership in the Boy Scouts, and that when there are "assignments" they are given out by the person who is in a leadership position at that particular moment for that particular task (in other words, SPL if it's something the whole troop is doing, PL if it's in a patrol, and including someone in an "acting leader" role in someone's absence.)