OldEagle4Life Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 My troop has attended several camps over the Northeast Region over the preceeding years, and we have spent several summers at Camp Schoellkopf in the Greater Niagara Frontier Council out of Buffalo NY. In the past this camp had a decent program, nice landscape, and generally good atmosphere. However over the past few years the quality of the staff has diminished greatly, which was one of the major attractions of this camp. They do not have very good waterfront activities (which our boys always look as a major attraction at a camp) they have tried several older boy programs, but all of them have met with little success. Their most recent older boy program involved older boy merit badges. I.e. eagle required badges that were meant for just the older scouts, but with no active screening process to keep younger boys out and these were badges not really appropriate for scout camp (The Cits, as well as First Aid and Communications). They had a really good younger boy program for a bunch of years, but then they changed the staff makeup and leadership of that program, and it too just seemed to go down hill. Their COPE field is very nice, but highly understaffed and under utilized (2 staff members apparently with an average camp attendance of 1800 for the summer I'm told!!). Their Trading post has especially taken a dive over the past 3 years with very little merchandise, few new products, and by the time our troop got there near the end of the summer almost all products were sold out or had very few options available size wise, or color wise. This past summer they apparently fired a good portion of their staff, with very few explanations that could stand up to scroutiny given, and had staff openly and actively bickering, complaining and pulling pranks on each other in open view of the scouts. I used to think this was a decent camp, but my troop is definetly not returning here any time soon, and will not return until we know for a fact that they have improved the quality of their camp. There are a few other camps in the general area of Western New York, all roughly in the same state of decay, only Camp Merz has any redeeming value in that it has a nice beach front property on Lake Chataquatua (spelling???), a rather nice sized lake. But this camp has been plagued by bad staff and bad atmosphere as of late as well, so that gives it several negative aspects as well. Camp Ditmer is not a bad camp, but I heard that they were not very loyal to even their long term resident troops, which makes us even more hesitant to camp there for any length of time. Just wanted to let everyone know what is happening to the camps in Western New York. Anyone else have any good camps to go to in NY, or for that matter, to stay away from!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASM416 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Well this is not good news. My troop has decided to return to Schoellkopf after many years away. We have spent most of our time at Camp Merz as of late. They do have a great waterfront, even if its under staffed. They used to have a good all around program and were very loyal to long term troops (Us). In the last few years the loyalty has gone down the tubes. The program had also been suffering. Last year there were 2 staff members (waterfront not included) and the rest of the program was run by CIT's. They also did not have a Health Officer on duty most of the time. In fact two years ago myself (an EMT for a local ambulance service) and my scoutmaster (a trauma nurse for many years) got roped into filling in for a very inexperienced health officer. They begged us to help and at the end of the week not so much as a thank you and a hand shake. Anyways, I am hoping for a good year camping back in our own council. I guess we will see! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouter9933 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 When things started going wrong at our Camp Owasippe (the Council pulling similar stunts), the CAC decided they "needed" to sell the camp, despite the amount of offers of help ($ for repairs & workers to do it for 0), and now we are in the battle to keep this camp... Hope all works out for you. ScouterHelen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 OldEagle, sorry to hear this. My son went to Schoelkopf as a provo last year and had kind of a lousy experience too. The provo troop consisted of about 30 boys that week and ONE "scoutmaster" who was about 22 years old at most. The poor guy had no help at all, probably violating all kinds of 2-deep rules in the process. My son was signed up for the 1st year program but didn't attend at all - just "hung out" in his camp site the whole week during the afternoons and...no one noticed...including the SM. From a parental view I wasn't too thrilled with that. If he'd been missing in the woods, would anyone have noticed that? My son had an "ok" time but doesn't want to go back this year because he wasn't impressed either. I'm disappointed because we spend a lot of the summer in WNY every year. Also we had a family tradition of three generations attending and working at Schoellkopf, but it isn't one my son wants to continue after last year. Anyway - What about Scouthaven? Does GNFC still run camps there (I seem to recall they used to, but the troops had to do their own cooking, unlike Schoellkopf)? There are also several bsa camps in the finger lakes region, many of which aren't more than a few hours drive from WNY. Good luck and let us know what you decide Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEagle4Life Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 ASM416: Sorry to hear that you guys will be going back this year. This camp has many major problems, if its not too late...run!!! Scout9933: I hope things do work out, but fortunately the council can't sell this camp (or any of their remaining camps). In the past when they were Cash poor and land rich the council sold other properties they owned which angered many of the leaders and scouts in the council, since they sold the most popular of the camps. Now they have 3 camps left, not bad pieces of land, but from what I'm told they only kept schoellkopf because it was given to them through a loan/lease deal- continuing to this day, and so they can't actually sell it, or I'm sure they would have. I place most of the problems for the camp in the hands of the Council Leaders. They have changed camp directors several times in the past years, and the man who is camp director now seems to have a big chip on his shoulder (he was also the assistant director for the 2 years before 2005, and these are the 3 years that the trading post stock has dwindled, and the 3 years the camp has been in decline!) LisaBob- We had 1 scout go to provo as well, and you're right. From what he told us, the Provo SM did not care about the scouts too much, in fact he spent much of his time on his laptop in the sight. And our boy also told us that there were times the scouts were told they couldn't be in the site, because of having only 1 leader, since the Provo SM wanted to spend time with his friends at the waterfront. If that is any indication of what type of person he is, I feel really bad for people going to the camp this year, since he is their Program Director according to the council webpage! OldEagle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 You know, I sometimes think that summer camp is a darned if you do/darned if you don't thing. If you have a good program and a good reputation, you can't fit everyone in who wants to come. One bad summer or a previously bad program and your bad reputation keeps people away no matter what you do to improve it. Let's say that the camp in question cleans up their program and has a dynamite program this year. Based on previous problems, no one will come. If the money doesn't come in, can the program be sustained for next year? Regaining a good reputation is a long term proposition. Will the council think that everything they threw in to the program to improve it was a waste of time since no one came? It is a catch-22. Perhaps camps need to charge more so they can provide a better program. Is trying to keep the price low or in line with what it was 10 years ago creating a hardship for the camps. I remember going to our council camp two years ago. The guy who was supposed to run the health lodge had some health issues that had him running back home to his doctor. We had a surgical nurse and battlefield medic in our unit that were enlisted to fill in for him the majority of the week. They were appalled at the condition of the health lodge and the small amount of inventory to work with. The camp ran for 5 to 6 weeks with probably 500 campers a week. The council had alloted about $200 a week for supplies. They ran thru that in the first 2 days and were having to get creative in their medical care. I'm sure that running a camp is not a cheap proposition. But throwing money at a poorly organized and untrained and uncaring staff isn't the answer either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 You get only one chance to make a good first impression. That goes for scout camps, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASM416 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Lisabob - GNFC does still run Scouthaven. It is used for winter camping and Cub Scout resident camp. There is a large piece of land on the other side of the highway that was supposed to be developed into a Boy Scout summer camp years ago. They even went so far as to dig a pond for it. This was long before my time so I don't know what happened. I imagine that money just ran out. I would have liked to have seen it finished, it really is a nice piece of property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 ASM416 - Thanks for the update on Scouthaven. I'll be curious to know what your troop decides to do and how it works out. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASM416 Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Lisabob - Well, we are committed for this year. The scouts have decided, the reservations are made. Just hoping our SM's eval of the place is correct. He made a trip there during last years summer camp and had good things to say. Hoping for the best! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM12505 Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Hello to all, Sorry to hear your trouble, it is really unfortunate to see a camp fall in to a depression like that. If I may be able to offer some advice (putting on my salesman cap) if you are looking for a new camp, I would like to highly recommend Camp Workcoeman, of the Connecticut Rivers Council. As I realize that it may be a trip for you to come down but it is really worth it, Workcoeman is one of thee best camp in the NE region being only rivaled by that of Yawgoog (but we are catching up quickly). I can personally assure that we have awesome summer camp program, and we have an excellent staff that will blow your hats off. I know that you would have some reservation about this camp but we have many troops coming from all over the country; including one of your neighboring councils Theodore Roosevelt council. I can assure you that this camp is worth it, If you would like more information about this wonderful camp please private message me or visit the councils website at: http://www.ctrivers.org/camps.asp?regionalID=21&campID=765 . Thank you! YIS, SM12505 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScout Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 ASM416, How did Schoellkopf turn out in 2006? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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