Troop Uniform Policy?

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Bev,

 

Hopefully, you will reconsider your emotional stand on this issue and with the things that I have written. I believe in the Brotherhood of Scouting and have found great value in every corner of it that I have had the honor to visit since I first joined as a Cub Scout years ago.

 

If you look closely, you will find that your argument is not with me but with the BSA program. Most of what I said was direct quotes from the official BSHB. The Uniform is one of the official Methods of Scouting. I support the Uniform as a Method because of the practical values that are instilled when used.

 

I sincerely like the integrated features of the Scouting program and how it works as a whole. When looking at the individual items, it is easy not to remember the other Methods or that all of it is moving in one direction and relies on each of the parts to get there. That is the reason that I support the Methods of Scouting because each one helps to achieve the Aims of Scouting. I believe that the Aims of Scouting are the best our Country and the World has to offer youth today.

 

FB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Fuzzy, my emotional stand is not on uniformin'. The troop I came from before doin' district work is a full-uniform troop (well, except for socks). I wear a full uniform when I visit most units, though I recognize that I'm a guest and when in Rome I try to dress Roman.

 

My emotional stand is on the members of our Scouting brotherhood who judge, critique, and criticize fellow brothers and sisters for their real or perceived failing to follow every jot and tiddle of BSA guidelines. I don't find it loyal, helpful, courteous, kind, obedient, reverent, mentally awake, or morally sound. I don't think it's consistent with the Golden Rule. In short, I find the Uniform Police and other Handbook Lawyers distasteful. They seem to spend more time on exacting compliance with the methods than achieving the Aims with the kids. I believe that approach, not troop uniform tweaks, is a "tremendously lousy example." So when I see it turn up, I automatically take the other side.

 

Like I said, I guarantee that no program out there is followin' da BSA guidelines perfectly. In fact, I'd wager the more well uniformed yeh are, the more adult-run you are, and the more likely you are to be an advancement mill. Dat's not necessarily bad; we all make tradeoffs. We should respect our brothers who make different choices in their tradeoffs, and avoid judging them unless we actually see their program failing to achieve the Aims.

 

Because who knows? That way we may learn something. The troop I am most affiliated with wears full uniform, but there are plenty of other things that some shirt-and-jeans troops do far better, program-wise. Maybe their example is the one to follow, not ours. Time, energy, dollars and adult "social capital" are all limited. They should be spent on things that help kids most. And maybe that's not pants.

 

But we'll never learn if we don't relax, listen, and support each other. These forums are the only ones I know that frequently tell new, inexperienced parents to go back and complain to or fight with their SM or troop committee, who must be "wrong." Dat's poor advice, eh? We want kids and parents to support their troop and its leaders.

 

 

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

When I was a SM, there was no option on the complete uniform, including the socks.

The reason was that it is a Method of Scouting, the BSA sets that policy and each Scout and Leader chose that program.

 

You might ask the question about enforcement or how was the Method implemented.

Every Scout and parent was given a uniform inspection sheet and told how and where patches were to be sewn, etc. We had monthly inspections. Scouts were expected to wear their uniforms on road trips and general assemblies, etc. Scouts were also told about the Troop Savings plan for Summer Camp, Uniforms, equipment, etc. Scouts were encouraged to enter into Fund Raisers to generate money for their accounts. We also had a Uniform closet run by one of our Committee persons. Our bead program had a bead for 100% uniform for the year. A Scout could earn the bead if he owned a complete uniform or had a plan with a due date to purchase the uniform or parts thereof. So, we generally had 100% participation and compliance even though we always had Scouts with partial uniforms but they were actively engaged in the process of obtaining the complete uniform.

 

The same could be said about being properly equipped for our monthly outdoor activities. We expected every Scout to be prepared even if they were in the midst of purchasing good equipment. They still needed to be able to know about and use secondary type equipment that would fulfill the mission. They got a bead for going on each excursion. Each activity was Scout planned and Committee and Leader supported, so in effect they were rewarded for doing what they wanted to do.

 

Overall, learning Thrift through one Method was essential to obtaining their goals and along with it came a few unexpected things such as, fitness, citizenship and character development.

 

I hope this helps to understand my reasons behind supporting the full uniform.

 

FB

 

[Beavah 205]

Good reasons, Fuzzy. And a nice implementation of the program.

 

If a parent from your unit came to me to complain about your program or how you did things (after all, many of the ways troops implement scout accounts and fundraising are questionable, beads are not an authorized national advancement/recognition scheme, etc. etc.) I would tell them that Fuzzy is a great volunteer, and probably deserves their support and assistance, eh? I would support your implementation of the program, even if I didn't think it was "the best" or "the way I would do it" or "National's most current version" or whatever.

 

Why? Because I assume you're doing your best to achieve the Aims, with the tools and people that you have. And because arming a parent to go give you a hard time about something really wouldn't help you to achieve the Aims at all. I'd be loyal to you as a fellow scouter, helpful to your parent in understanding the hard work you're doing, etc. Even if I offered that there were other ways to look at it, I wouldn't badmouth you or suggest that you were "wrong" or that you should leave the organization.

 

And I expect you'd appreciate such an approach, eh?

 

Do unto others is all I'm suggestin', and not so much to you but to all of us. I blow it, too, sometimes, but it's pretty in-your-face around here, eh?

 

 

[acco40 95]

Beavah, I'm a unit commissioner and when I visit other units I would never dream of critisizing the adults or youth about uniform issues. However, if I was asked point blank, "Is it okay not to wear Scout pants?" I would reply what the BSA policy is. Again, that is not say the volunteers are bad, the boys are evil or that the program that the unit puts on is not high quality.

 

What would your response be to such a question?

 

Look at the original question. Can a Boy Scout troop set it own uniform policy? I think we owe a proper response to that question.

 

P.S. Has anyone really paid attention to the verbage on the Uniform Inspection Sheet - Conduct uniform inspection with common sense; the basic rule is neatness.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Beavah 205]

However, if I was asked point blank, "Is it okay not to wear Scout pants?" I would reply what the BSA policy is.... What would your response be to such a question?

 

As a fellow commish, I'd respond by asking 'em things like:

 

What do your youth leaders think?

 

What do your adult leaders think?

 

What do you feel best represents the ideals of the program for your unit?

 

What makes sense as a team uniform in the outdoors for your unit?

 

In short, apply the other methods (Youth Leadership, Adult Association, Ideals, Outdoors, etc.) to inform the question, as the unit tries to get to the Aims.

 

Giving them the official BSA policy ("A uniform is not required for scouting") or the BSA guidelines answer ("If a uniform is worn, it should always be worn as fully and correctly as possible") or the real-world answer ("Most troops expect the scout shirt, and some set other expectations for pants, etc.") doesn't help 'em much, eh? I want them to learn to focus on the Aims. I want them to think about how to use the (other) methods to inform how to use this method.

 

In short, I don't want to give 'em my answer. I want them to learn how to answer the question themselves, always mindful of their goals and their mission of service. Even if they make mistakes, they'll learn and grow and get better.

 

Same as we do with da boys, eh? Don't give 'em a fish. Teach 'em how to fish. More useful, more friendly, and a lot more fun.

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Bev,

 

There is always a question floating around regarding what we should be doing in this Forum. Another question is what people will do with the information they read and understand.

 

I see the answers to these questions as being multifaceted.

 

First, we are Scouters communicating with other Scouters using the Scout Oath and Law as a kind of limiting rational for how we communicate. Save Merlyn, there are few non-Scouters that frequent these columns. I have come to really appreciate how important this one factor is even beyond any answer given.

 

Secondly, we are Scouters with various backgrounds and similar training attempting to answer questions in written form without any of the physical cues that we normally have in face to face communication. I believe that this one makes most of us stumble more times than trying to write or figure out the answers.

 

Thirdly, there is a hidden IQ factor, emotional stability factor, environmental factor, and other possible physical properties that MAY inhibit an effective exchange of information.

We never know how people will use the information. We just simply have to trust that they will use their head and heart when engaging what they have learned.

 

I am sure there are exceptions to this one but most Scouters here try their best with all of their thoughts and knowledge to answer questions or replies to their utmost ability. My experience here has shown me that no matter how good an answer one has, there is always something a little or allot better just around the corner. Sometimes it is more of a Hegelian Dialectical spiral than simply opposites taking potshots at one another.

 

On occasion, I take a topic and dump all of the answers in a Word file. It is amazing. FB

 

[Beavah 205]

Sometimes it is more of a Hegelian Dialectical spiral than simply opposites taking potshots at one another.

 

Uh, yah, yah. One of them there dialectical thingies. Put me down in da low IQ category

 

I think you missed a big factor, though. A lot of scouters here come at things with very different views of ethics. Some are very comfortable with revealed truth presented in written text, and may (appropriately or not) extend that view to wishing for authoritative text in other areas, eh? Others are more comfortable with finding "the right way" from a variety of sources, including text, and tradition, and evidence, and dialog with other people in the community. Still others distrust and rebel against "hard" objective notions of "right" in favor of personal freedom to develop and grow toward enlightenment.

 

Another question is what people will do with the information they read and understand.

 

This is my practical concern, too, eh? How is the recipient goin' to use the information we offer? Not all the parents on the forums are scouters, so we can't count on that interpretive lens, eh? And like all of us did at one point, many scouters are movin' from cubs to boyscouts to sea scouting/venturing and are often trying to adjust to a new environment and a new role.

 

If Merri took our words to heart that her troop was doin' something "wrong" and went and had words with the SM (or sicked the DE on her, yada yada) what's the likely outcome? I can't imagine da SM smacking her forehead and saying, "Of course! Some anonymous twad on the internet told you we were all wrong and should be shot. We'll change immediately!" Can you?

 

Nah, the SM thinks to herself, "I've spent 3 months thinkin' about this, talkin' to friends, kids, committee members, my other leaders, trying to balance competing interests, and now someone is gripin' over a move to cheaper pants?" Poor Merri gets put into the "problem parent" column, to be avoided and worked around (or worse, joked about with the SM's friends at the next roundtable).

 

Merri happily ignored our advice about makin' a fuss, and just asked if it was OK for her son to keep wearin' his BSA pants he got for his OA ordeal, so she wouldn't have to buy a new pair. Like I suggested they would, they said "no problemo." (Though we did get a hint of some of da other pressures the SM is dealin' with, in the MC who wants 'em all in khaki). I think Merri's was a good answer. Be helpful and respectful, and tweak the program at its edges if it isn't working for you.

 

Down the road maybe they'll end up in all green, or maybe it'll be better if they're all khaki, or maybe it'll stay a mix.

 

But they'll get there together. And that is the real purpose of bein' Uniform.

 

 

[scoutldr 732]

We're having a Hegelian Dialectical spiral???? COOOOLLLL!!!!!

 

Too bad Bob White's no longer around...this would have been REAL entertaining!

 

Let me say publicly that I really appreciate the civil and mature, albeit passionate discourse. We can agree to disagree, but in the end, we're still friends and brother (and sister) Scouters. That's what it's all about. Now let's go have a beer...the first round's on me!

[Eagledad 2780]

Ive said it before that I think the Uniform Method is the hardest Method for adults and easiest for the Scouts.

 

In general I find that there are two styles of ideals being presented in these types of discussions: One is applying the Methods on the scouts as a group equally, the other is applying the Methods on each individually.

 

When you apply the Method as a group, it comes off more as an enforcement of a rule or law because the scout basically isnt left with a choice. When the Methods are applied to scouts individually, generally the intent is to teach or coach the scout to understand the logic of the intended reasoning of the Method and letting him make the choice.

 

My experience is large troops apply methods more at the group because they lack the resources to apply them on individual basis. On the other hand, sometimes the smaller troops let the scout make the choice, but dont give any reasoning for making any choice or an expectation of right or wrong. The proper uniform is addressed in the scouts handbook, so there is no need to list a proper uniform, its really only a matter of morally justifying the choice made.

 

I love asking scouts why they do what they do, dont you?

 

Barry