Eagle Project Liability

[mdlscouting]

My son is working on his eagle project which is to provide a local youth organization with a (portable) skateboard park. My question is: Has anyone working on a project obtained a release of liability for after the project is complete. If so, is this part of the project or something that my husband and I should do. I realize there is a release for the people involved in while working on the project but what about two years down the road if someone used the equipment and got hurt?

[Basementdweller]

If you have to ask about liability then I would pass on the project.

 

 

That park could be around for years and it would be a bad surprise to be served with a lawsuit for an injury 10 years from now.

 

Irregardless of release from liability you will be named in the lawsuit. Everyone gets named and the courts sort it out.

[Twocubdad]

Of course, 20 years from now the picnic tables my son built could collapse when someone sits down at them. A product defect or lack of maintenance by the beneficiary organizations?

 

While BD probably has the practical advice, the real answer is to ask the beneficiary organization. What sort of insurance do they have? Like the BSA, most volunteer groups have insurance which covers their volunteers. Do they -- and you -- understand that the Eagle candidate and his helpers are working for the beneficiary, not the troop or the BSA?

 

It's also a question you can ask your own insurance agent.

 

 

[desertrat77]

Even if insurance covers you, is it worth the worry that some day, your son might be named in a suit? And if someone does sue, it is worth the time and trouble to deal with court dates, attorney fees, wrestling with insurance companies, etc?

 

To be even more jaded, if the youth org and your insurance agent give you the green light now, there is no guarantee they will stand by you and your son the first time a lawsuit pops up. They might weasel out and leave you holding the bag.

 

And a more important question: what if a skaterboarder splits his skull open on the Eagle project, and he ends up brain dead or worse? Can I live with that? Every one will have a different answer, but if the answer is "Wow, I would feel awful" perhaps a different project is in order.

 

While we can be sued for just about anything, skateboarding parks are inherently dangerous places. Broken bones and such are regular occurrences. They keep emergency room staffs, lawyers, and insurance companies full employed.

 

Disclaimer: I'll freely admit I don't understand skateboarding these days. I skateboarded in the '70s, when the board was primarily transportation, and tricks involved stuff that was all on the ground--zig zagging around papercups, wheelies, etc. Very tame by today's standards.

 

Today's skateboarders seem to spend more time falling off their boards, and picking themselves off the ground. Few know the joy of just riding down a few miles of brand new asphalt road, smooth as silk, bearings/trucks humming......

 

I'm getting old.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmm. Welcome to da forums, mdlscouting. Please don't think my remarks are offensive in any way, but they are meant to be challengin'. And informative.

 

The challengin' comes from my astonishment. Guess I'm just an old fellow. Some folks are sending their kids to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan, and some are afraid of sending their child to build a skate park?

 

Theres this story I remember, about a man injured by robbers and left along the side of the road, and various upstanding citizens going by. I suppose a few may have thought Maybe he or his family will sue me if I dont do a perfect job helping. And so they leave him there, eh? Only a young Goth fellow (or someone from another outcast group that good families sneer at) has the courage and decency to assume the risk that comes with doing what is right. We remember him as the Good Samaritan.

 

If your good deeds are contingent on being risk- or inconvenience- free, then I reckon they arent worth much. I think its better that yeh teach your son that America is the home of the Brave, eh? We do good deeds even when there is risk and liability. As oft as not, we put our sons and daughters in harms' way to help others.

 

But in this case, there is almost no risk.

 

1. As a volunteer for a not-for-profit, you have statutory immunity from negligence claims. You are exempt by law.

2. As a minor, your son doesnt likely have any personal responsibility.

3. As the parent of a minor, most states cap your responsibility for his actions at some very low dollar amount (if they allow such claims at all).

4. As a community, da skaters and other extreme sports folks tend to take personal responsibility. They arent a very sue-happy bunch. That distinction is reserved to the old and the well off.

5. Despite what yeh hear, the liability waivers used in such places can be effective for extreme sports.

6. Its hard to imagine a jury of ordinary folks finding such a claim cognizable. Despite what yeh hear on the internet, more than 99% of da time the court system works well.

7. It would be the park respondin to any plaintiff action. Then maybe da BSA and the CO. That puts yeh behind tens of millions of dollars of insurance cover.

 

In short, you and your son have as much protection from liability as it is possible to have in a free society. Backing your car down your driveway is ten thousand times more risk in terms of liability.

 

Dont be afraid of doing good deeds for your community. Ever. And please don't teach your children to be afraid.

 

Buildin' a skate park is a fantastic idea, and a needed service in many communities where da young folks need a place to play and the old folks don't like 'em doing it around town. Your son is thinkin' well, and should be commended and supported, even if it's not da project you would have chosen.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[desertrat77]

Beavah, I'm fully on board with the good samaritan principle. I just don't see the parallel between providing the indigent with food/rainment/water/medical care (necessities) and skateboarding, which is optional, and a hobby, and a dangerous one at that.

 

Your knowledge of the law is superior; however, my original point is "do you even want the risk or hassle." Even in your run down, we have these qualifiers:

 

"...there is almost no risk."

2. "...doesn't likely have any personal responsibility."

3. Most states...cap your responsibility...." [One still may have responsibility, and while it may be a small amount, it will still entail legal fees, etc.]

 

I agree that we shouldn't teach our children to be afraid. But if you'll re-read Mdlscouting's post, she has concerns about future liability. I think her concerns are well founded, based on what I know about skateboard parks and the injuries that kids get from them.

 

Everyone has a different risk tolerance level. Agreed, we should teach our kids to be afraid. But we aren't talking about feeding the hungry and worrying if someone is going to sue us because they got sick from a bad egg salad sandwich. We're talking about a high-risk activity where kids often fall and may be quite badly hurt.

 

One last note--with all due respect, the men and women in uniform that I work with every day aren't kids, and their parents didn't send them. They signed up on their own.

 

And their risk is not at the hobby level--they took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. They represent the best our country has to offer. To compare their willingness to lay down their life with the risk a skateboard takes when he jumps off a stair railing--well, there is no comparision.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[mdlscouting]

Thanks for all your input. I have always been told that scouts should pick eagle projects that they are excited about and are motivated to jump in and learn while completing. He is well into this project with the wood already delivered to our back yard. It's us his parents that wondered if it should be part of his project to look into liability waivers (another learning experience). In talking to a lawyer, a waiver was recommended. He however, didn't suggest he would help my son do this for his project but quoted $250 an hour.

My son skateboards and wouldn't agree with the older timers view on skateboarding (no offense), I must agree I think boys that put their energy into high adventure spend less time looking for adventure out on the streets. I will admit I have spent my time with kids in the ER from snowboarding and mountain biking (at scout camp) but we don't stop those activities, we try enforce better safety precautions.

 

I am assuming this has come up before with other scouts since a skatepark isn't an original idea. Thank you Beavah for your legal input (and no your comments were not offensive at all). I'll print those out and make sure my son checks into them with his organization. Basement, Twocub and Desert, thanks for bring up the issues that I need him to look into. I think the important thing is we go into this project knowing what the risks are and if possible take responsible measures to cover ourselves.

[Beavah]

To compare their willingness to lay down their life with the risk a skateboard takes when he jumps off a stair railing--well, there is no comparision.

 

Yah, desertrat77, that was exactly my point, eh? Thanks for making it clear.

 

The risks aren't the same. They are far less for the lad who chooses to give his time to build a skatepark than they are for the lad who chooses to give his time to the Armed Forces. So we should be (much!) less worried about the skatepark builder. Of course, both are giving to the nation and community according to their interest and calling (and age and ability), and therefore both are to be encouraged and supported even when we disagree with their cause.

 

And we have plenty of soldiers in da service who kept themselves fit and alert by skating, eh?

 

Even in your run down, we have these qualifiers:

 

Yah, force of habit, eh? Nobody is licensed to practice in all the several states, and we do call it "practice" not perfect.

 

But I was being completely honest when I said that the poster and her son had the maximum level of protection that is available while still living in a free society. Or, to put it another way, I challenge yeh to find any case anywhere that approximates these conditions was ever brought, let alone survived summary judgment.

 

If that isn't enough to allay your fears of liability, then I reckon yeh need to move to one of those middle eastern kingdoms and work for the king.

 

Beavah

who really must be addicted to this internet stuff to be writin' on legal issues from da field.

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Beavah]

In talking to a lawyer, a waiver was recommended. He however, didn't suggest he would help my son do this for his project but quoted $250 an hour.

 

What an arse.

 

Sometimes yeh just have to shake your head at some members of da profession.

 

Remember, mdlscouting, the job of an attorney is to give yeh the best possible, most conservative, legal advice. And bill yeh for it.

 

That's not the best possible overall advice, eh? In fact, in a lot of cases it's the worst possible business advice, or personal advice, or ethical advice. But the way the law works in this country, it's up to you to make decisions about all of those other things (or talk with an MBA, a friend, or a minister ). An attorney only provides you with legal advice. Lots of times, yeh need to thank an attorney for his advice and then ignore him.

 

Without giving you legal advice, which I can't, I'd gently suggest that I reckon this is one of those times when the man's behavior speaks for itself and you should ignore the fellow.

 

But if yeh really want your son to have this sort of "learning" experience, have him call your scout council office and ask for the name of an attorney serving on the district committee or council executive board. I reckon they'll be more Helpful and Friendly. And maybe your son can get a Law MB out of it.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[desertrat77]

Beaveh,

 

Actually, we have alot of folks in uniform that get hurt at the skateboard parks--limited duty, medical costs, someone else picking up their duties--and not much fitness is gained as they aren't skating, but going down ramps and rails for short distances, falling, etc. Not alot of fitness at these parks, and many military safety and legal folks cringe at the very mention of them.

 

I applaud the "maximum level of protection" principle. But the average man or woman isn't going to get that from the get-go. As Basement stated so well: "Everyone gets named and the courts sort it out."

 

So citizens may get justice--but they will spend a bunch of money and time worrying till "Justice" or that max protection arrives.

 

And the attorney who quoted $250 bucks an hour to help mdl's son achieve "maximum level of protection" is a prime example of the journey one must take to arrive at justice.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)