What is an active Scout?

[Hunt 11]

It seems to me that the Clinton Valley Council interpretation just can't be squared with what National has said on the FAQ, which to me clearly says that time in POR will count for advancement, but that the SM should remove a boy who ultimately can't be persuaded to perform. How could a BOR find that performance was inadequate when the POR requirement has been signed off by the SM?

[Beavah 205]

Yah, acco's got a good point, eh? What are the boys being told? To add to his response, here's what they're told in da Patrol Leader's Handbook, right at the very start of the book:

 

What is Expected of Me?

 

While you are a patrol leader, your troop and patrol are going to count on you to live up to some clear expectations. They will look to you to:

 

* Represent the patrol at all patrol leaders' council meetings and the annual program planning conference. (emphasis mine)

 

* Keep patrol members informed of decisions made by the patrol leaders' council.

 

* Play a key role in planning, leading, and evaluating patrol meetings and activities.

 

* Help the patrol prepare to participate in all troop activities.

 

...

 

* Set a good example by having a positive attitude... and expecting the best from yourself and others.

 

* Devote the time necessary to be an effective leader.

 

...

 

 

Seems like dat's a bit more than "be registered, hold a position title, and don't get fired." Certainly, speaks much more to the kind of man I hope Scoutin' will produce.

 

Beavah

(edited for brevity)(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Venividi 35]

Hunt,

 

Considering the information on the CVC web site FAQ to be an interpretation would be easier if they didn't attribute the statement to the National decision. But the words are in quotes, and the National decision is cited.

 

What is puzzling is why National didn't post the same BOR text that CVC posted on the National web site (This is assuming that CVC is indeed providing a direct quote).

National's intent might be clearer if they posted the entire decision. Or issued a memo ;-).

[BrentAllen 10]

How did we ever get so far off course?

 

Aren't we supposed to be teaching the boys to be responsible citizens?

 

What happens if you miss work without calling in? What happens to Johnny if he misses a Varsity football practice without an explanation? Is Scouting more important to our sons than football? It should be! Why not teach them to be responsible about Scouting?

 

Why not expect/require Scouts to notify their PL if they are going to miss a meeting or activity? They should understand they have an obligation to their Patrol and Troop. Every time they miss a meeting, campout or activity, they leave their Patrol mates short a man. If they have a sports team or band commitment that conflicts with Scouts for a few months, that is fine - explain it to the Troop leadership and do your thing, but don't expect to be advancing in rank during that time. And don't expect to hold any POR.

 

If a Scout misses a meeting or activity with no notification, his PL should call him and find out why he wasn't there, or why he didn't notify the PL.

 

If a Scout misses a month of meetings with no explanation, the ASM over his Patrol or the SM should give him a call and find out what is going on. That is "engaging" him. If the Scout doesn't understand his commitment to his Patrol and Troop, explain it to him and see if he wants to continue. If this continues to happen, explain to the Scout that he will have his registration fee refunded on a pro-rated basis and will be dropped from the rolls if he doesn't show up and want to be part of the program.

 

The boys cannot learn leadership if they aren't present and working together as a Patrol. I want as many boys as possible in Scouts, but only if they are going to be a Scout. That means showing up and being part of the team.

 

I welcome your thoughts.

[FScouter 24]

"What is puzzling is why National didn't post the same BOR text that CVC posted on the National web site"

 

The answer provided to the FAQ What can a Scoutmaster do is poorly answered by essentially saying theres nothing you can do. Only a volunteer writing an FAQ on a local council web site would get away with an answer like that. Theres a ton of stuff out a SM can do to help a boy be successful in a position of responsibility. Its a lousy FAQ answer to cite 1 or 2 lines out of a confidential letter to wrongly promote the notion that time in the position is good enough to meet the requirement. Time in position is most certainly NOT a policy.

 

Indeed, it is abundantly clear that the policy for positions of responsibility is that the boy is expected to fulfill the duties of the job. The Boy Scout Handbook, SM Handbook, Advancement Guide, PL Handbook, Troop Leadership Training, and the new training materials on the BSA web site all support the idea that the boy is to actually do the work. The Scoutmaster is ultimately responsible to see that the boy is trained and is successful. There is nothing in any publication anywhere that suggests that meeting the POR requirement is merely holding the title for the required minimum time.

 

I suspect that appeals to the national council are usually decided in favor of the boy because the adult leaders have first failed to adequately perform their responsibilities. A boy's failure after 4 months or 6 months in a position is simply not an option available to a Scoutmaster.

[acco40 95]

CVC direction - I agree with the comments about the CVC web posting. FYI, at a University of Scouting training session held by CVC this was brought and the "students" were told that while the POR is fulfilled by time served, the SM could easily and rightly determine that the Scout was not demonstrating Scout Spirit if he did not perform his POR to his satisfaction.

 

P.S. Don' shoot the messenger.

[John-in-KC 311]

Acco,

 

OK, I won't shoot the messenger.

 

Someone, though, needs to shoot the instructor for that Scout Spirit comment.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

What are we back to advocating death again?

[nusplash 10]

I am not sure that the answer to a FAQ makes what is said there an "official Policy interpretation". We don't know who wrote the answer, or how that interpretation was determinded. Are there a National set of Bylaws that can be referenced? If I look in the dictionary for what active means I get the impression that the definition, in Webster or American Heritage dictionary, of the word goes a lot further than what was stated in the FAQ by some unknown person.

[John-in-KC 311]

Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA #33088.

 

You can buy it at your Scout Shop, or you can contact your District Advancement Chairman and look at his copy!

 

The way National has reorganized the website, if those words are not in the 2008 edition, I'll be amazed. Many things read as though they were lifted from BSA publications verbatim. The National Council has been very hot on speaking with one voice, using "The Language of Scouting."

[Beavah 205]

Are there a National set of Bylaws that can be referenced

 

Yah, sure.

 

Theyall give the common-sense definition of active, responsibility, and character. Kinda like the Patrol Leader Handbook quote above, eh?

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

lets see, you go to the web page of the National Organization website and then find a document titled:

 

Rank Advancement and the Board of Review Process: Frequently Asked Questions

 

with the introduction that reads:

 

Unit leaders and other Scouters often ask the same questions about the rank advancement program and board of review process. Here is a quick reference guide of answers to some of those frequently asked questions

 

and then the question is whether or not its Official BSA policy?

 

I admit its not in bold print, but here, have percentage requirements in your troop. Deny a kid Eagle because he didnt make "enough" campouts and then when they ask you if you have ever seen this page, what do you say(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[FScouter 24]

Are there a National set of Bylaws that can be referenced?

 

Tons of references:

The Boy Scout Handbook

Scoutmaster Handbook

Advancement Guide

Patrol Leader Handbook

SPL Handbook

Troop Leadership Training

Troop Committee Guidebook

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/videos/advancement/index.html

 

among others.

[Beavah 205]

Nah, OGE and F.

 

He wasn't askin' for "support materials" like FAQ and some of the program books.

 

He was askin' about real bylaws and regulations adopted by the National Council, eh? Leastways, that's the way I interpreted it. He's right in sayin' that most of the FAQ and program material documents can are written (and edited/compiled) in all kinds of different ways. Some are fairly well vetted. Some are just one guy doin' his best. And some get butchered by the editor or webmaster

 

B

 

[nusplash 10]

Exactly,

I guess I will have to buy "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA #33088" to see if the answer is really in there. One would think the answer would be in the Scoutmasters handbook. It is tough to manage all the parents if no one is allowed to interpret what "active" means. After all it will the parents that won't understand and complain, not the boy. My feeling is if our troop comes up with a defintion that the Scoutmaster can work with and everyone has enough warning then all the scouts will know what is expected of them. It seems silly to think that simply paying your dues makes you active. If the Scoutmaster's only leeway is in deciding if the Boy show's spirit, then I could place the restriction on myself, and say I must observe the boy while he is participating in at least 1/3 of the activites before I can make a decision about his ability to demonstrate Scout spirit.