Patrol vs Troop POR

[oldsm 10]

I haven't seen this addressed directly. If it has been, someone please direct to the thread or other source. Otherwise, I'll appreciate responses...

 

Star, Life, and Eagle ranks require 6 months in a position of responsibility. These are well defined in the Star requirements:

 

5. While a First Class Scout, serve actively for four months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop):

* Patrol leader,

* Assistant Senior Patrol Leader,

* Senior Patrol Leader,

* Troop Guide,

* Order of the Arrow Troop Representative,

* Den Chief,

* Scribe,

* Librarian,

* Historian,

* Quartermaster,

* Bugler,

* Junior Assistant Scoutmaster,

* Chaplain Aide, or

* Iinstructor.

 

Assistant Patrol Leader is excluded.

 

Most patrols that I've seen appoint a Patrol Scribe and a Patrol Quartermaster. If the unit is truly patrol-centric, then the patrol scribe and patrol quartermaster are likely accepting and demonstrating a greater degree of responsibility than the Troop Scribe and QM.

 

Questions:

 

1. Do (can) Patrol Scribe and Patrol QM meet the advancement requirement?

 

2. Can the Patrol Scribe and Patrol QM wear the position patches on their uniforms?

 

One part of me says that only "troop level" should count. But another part of me wants to encourage the patrol indepdence and self-sufficiency. We've been troop-centric too long. I finally have two boy leaders (a new SPL and a new PL) who came back from NYLTC just champing at the bit to strengthen the patrols. I'm excited for them and intend to support them in any way I can.

 

So what's the answer?

[FScouter 24]

Is "patrol scribe" listed as one of the positions of responsibility required for the rank?

[oldsm 10]

No, "Patrol Scribe" is not listed as a position, nor is "Troop Scribe". The requirement just says "Scribe".

 

I've always assumed that "Scribe" IMPLIED "Troop Scribe", but I can't find that in writing. So I wonder, especially when emphasizing the patrol method.

[Trevorum 24]

The SM can identify any specific leadership responsibility as fulfilling this requirement. If the SM says that the job Patrol Scribe or Patrol QM meet his level of expectation for leadership and responsibility, then that's all that is needed.

 

On the other hand, I believe that the patches are for troop positions.

[evmori 11]

A Scribe or QM can be either a Patrol or Troop position. So can Instructor, Librarian or Historian.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter 24]

Correct me if I'm wrong anybody, but there is no position called "troop scribe". I believe the SM handbook refers to "scribe", QM etc., which are the positions that meet the rank requirement. The book goes on to describe patrol positions such as patrol scribe, patrol cheermaster, etc. There is no mention that the "patrol" positions meet the rank requirement.

[Trevorum 24]

FS, your reading is correct but your conclusion is wrong (IMO).

 

The bottom line here is that the SM may assign any "leadership project to help the troop" that he cares to. If this is a Patrol QM position, so be it.

[oldsm 10]

OK, I understand about whether or not a patrol position "counts" toward rank advancement.

 

What about the patches?

[Trevorum 24]

I don't know about the others, but I've never been a member of the Uniform Police. That said, my understanding is that the patches are for troop positions.

[SWScouter 34]

I believe the PORs listed are for troop positions. Actually, I think they are for positions reporting to the SPL, ASPL or SM. Positions such as Assistant PL (which is not a POR for rank), patrol scribe, and patrol QM, report to the PL. This is all shown in the troop org charts in the SPL, PL and SM handbooks.

 

Also, for librarian, the patch does say, Troop Librarian. This is not the case for Scribe, Quartermaster, nor Instructor.

 

Also, there was recently a thread on this very subject in the usscouts forums, see http://usscouts.org/discuss/messages/5/2859.html

 

SWScouter

[FScouter 24]

If it is the intent that patrol positions meet the requirements for Star or Life rank, why does the requirement not also list patrol scribe, patrol grubmaster, patrol cheermaster, and the rest of the patrol positions??

 

The alternative to holding a listed position of responsibility is carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop". Id really question how one of these patrol positions help the troop, and 2nd, the SM does not assign patrol positions. That is the domain of the patrol leader, not the SM.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Ok, so the logic that appears that needs to be followed is that Assistant Patrol Leader can't be used as a POR, but Patrol Scribe, Patrol Quartermaster, Patrol Historian, etc can be?

[Trevorum 24]

Well then, that's fine for your troop! In other units, the SM may well decide that having patrol QMs is in the best interest of the troop.

 

We don't do this, but if we did I could envision this scenario: 1) SM decides whether or not patrol QM meets his standard of leadership and service. 2) SM informs SPL. 3) SPL notifies PLs. 4) Interested Scout asks PL if patrol QM position is open, and if yes, 5) interested Scout talks to SM to get approval of proposed position for purposes of rank advancement. 6) Scout performs duties. 7) SM holds conference with scout to review performance, and if appropriate, 8) SM approves performance for rank advancement

[SWScouter 34]

OGE makes a very good point. That's also the reason I brought up the troop org chart. Reporting to the PL doesn't cut it. For the POR to be valid I believe the scout needs to report to the SPL, ASPL, or SM.

 

SWScouter

[Trevorum 24]

OGE,

Not necessarily. Certain specified positions automatically qualify in any troop (PL, ASPL, etc). However, my understanding of the rule is that the SM has wide latitude in identifying leadership opportunities to match a particular boy with the needs of the troop.