Docrwm

Sounds like a serious set of issues here. Lots of folks will tell you what you should do. Problem is that when its your son you have every right to handle it however you choose. If he shoved your son without adequate provocation or reason then you could simply, and correctly, go to the Sheriff's office and file charges without talking to anyone at all. Folks need to get a grip and understand that just because BSA says something doesn't make it so. That said, if it were my son - I'd talk to him 1:1 and let him know a) if he touched my son again, for any reason other than saving him from harm, he'd be looking at a warrant for his arrest quick as look at you, b) drinking is never approved at any BSA event and it must stop, period, and c) his demeanor is not appropriate (e.g., language, etc.) and must change. I'd ALSO have a chat with the Troop CC on this in very frank terms. My 2 cents, your mileage may vary/

Hal,

Don't wait for the paperwork - for YP it can be taken online without a number and it counts. Just make sure that they print off the certificate AND use the name exactly as they have put it on the official paperwork so it matches in the antiquated computer systems BSA uses.

It is tough to understand how folks aren't aware that BB & Archery can only be done at District and Council level events. Its printed on ALL the materials - I mean all the Cub Scout manuals, including the ones for the boys. District and Council means that its been SPECIFICALLY approved in WRITING so that the BSA and/or Council Liability Insurance applies. Also, a Shooting Sports Director is required to be on property for the Insurance to apply. The first rule of any shooting sport within BSA is SAFETY. Having someone else check your perimeter, flow, procedures, and lines of sight is really important as we all can get so wedded to our own ideas, plans, and work that we fail to see what someone else with the proper training can seen in an instant sometimes. Since the insurance is run through BSA National in most (all?) instances it seems odd that the rules could vary from District to District as they should be based on the same legal documents.

Go with your son. But, try to get the new leaders up to speed by bringing in the Commissioner's staff from your District. You may or may not have a Unit Commissioner. I know you've been told here that every unit has one - fantasy. The Commissioner's Service is down roughly 40% nationwide from the last figures I saw at UC training. Your District does have a District Commissioner and probably Asst DCs who can help you. Frankly, given the very small size of your unit its likely that you're not on the Commissioner Staff's radar. Also, the Paid BSA Employee for your District has as part of their evaluation the continuance of units and membership generally. They should also be able to help with supporting the unit.

Good luck.

Thanks for the update.

Definitely NOT a fan of the new look.

The Trainer is plain wrong. The rules are Grade OR Age for each rank as are the rules for transition to Boy Scouts. YOU can choose to hold him back or his parents can but your District Trainer has no role in the process at all and really should read the manuals. Too many Red/Green tab folks know next to nothing about Cub Scouts but shoot their mouths off. I see it routinely with Roundtables with Commissioners that are Boy Scouters doing CS Roundtable and not knowing what they're talking about on a regular basis. Did the boy earn his rank - Yes or No. If yes, then why punish him and make him do it again? His academic progression only matters in so far as you may want to keep him with his classmates - however you may also want to keep him with his current friends with whom he has been successful in Scouts.

The bottom line is - did he legitimately pass the requirements for his rank? We've got plenty of rules to allow boys to do optional progressions - particularly if they are disabled. Simply because he had trouble passing in school is no reason to take away his achievement in Scouts.

Just FYI - the old SB pants are on the BOGO again until July 4th. I finally picked up two and am so much happier with them than the old pants!

" The Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award is a COOL award that we are pushing strongly. The toughest part, really, is satisfying the summer camp portion. It isn't difficult, it is just that a lot of boys don't go to summer camp. We are trying to rectify that in our Pack. "

FYI - the Summertime Camp option is an option not a requirement. Look at each rank and see that it has different requirements. For Wolves its " Assemble the "Six Essentials for Going Outdoors" (Wolf Handbook, Elective 23b) and discuss their purpose, and complete FOUR of the outdoor activities listed below." That means ANY 4 of the 13 listed. Should make it more manageable for your Pack. Good luck.

Taken directly from

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/csoutdooractivityaward.aspx

Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award

Tiger Cubs, Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts have the opportunity to earn the Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award. Boys may earn the award in each of the program years as long as the requirements are completed each year. The first time the award is earned, the boy will receive the pocket flap award, which is to be worn on the right pocket flap of the uniform shirt. Each successive time the award is earned, a wolf track pin may be added to the flap. Leaders should encourage boys t o build on skills and experiences from previous years when working on the award for a successive year.

Requirements

All Ranks

Attend Cub Scout day camp or Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camp.

Rank-Specific

Tiger Cubs

Complete one requirement in Achievement 5, "Let's Go Outdoors" (Tiger Cub Handbook) and complete three of the outdoor activities listed below.

Wolf Cub Scouts

Assemble the "Six Essentials for Going Outdoors" (Wolf Handbook, Elective 23b) and discuss their purpose, and complete four of the outdoor activities listed below.

Bear Cub Scouts

Earn the Cub Scout Leave No Trace Award (Bear Handbook, Elective 25h) and compete five of the outdoor activities listed below.

Webelos Scouts

Earn the Outdoorsman Activity Badge (Webelos Handbook) and complete six of the outdoor activities listed below.

Outdoor Activities

With your den, pack, or family:

1. Participate in a nature hike in your local area. This can be on an organized, marked trail, or just a hike to observe nature in your area.

2. Participate in an outdoor activity such as a picnic or park fun day.

3. Explain the buddy system and tell what to do if lost. Explain the importance of cooperation.

4. Attend a pack overnighter. Be responsible by being prepared for the event.

5. Complete an outdoor service project in your community.

6. Complete a nature/conservation project in your area. This project should involve improving, beautifying, or supporting natural habitats. Discuss how this project helped you to respect nature.

7. Earn the Summertime Pack Award.

8. Participate in a nature observation activity. Describe or illustrate and display your observations at a den or pack meeting.

9. Participate in an outdoor aquatic activity. This can be an organized swim meet or just a den or pack swim.

10. Participate in an outdoor campfire program. Perform in a skit, sing a song, or take part in a ceremony.

11. Participate in an outdoor sporting event.

12. Participate in an outdoor Scout's Own or other worship service.

13. Explore a local city, county, state, or national park. Discuss with your den how a good citizen obeys the park rules.

The award requirements are detailed in the Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award brochure, No. 13-228.

I am replying, as I said I was going to continue to read here, for 2 reasons: all the PMs I have gotten and some apparent mistaken conclusions. So I will try to clarify in an effort to not foster further dissent here.

First, thank you for the PMs folks. As I said to most, I have two new District projects that may just eat up a substantial portion of my hour a week for scouting.

Second, many PMs put the blame for my leaving on Bob White. Nothing could be further from the truth. His responses to me have been uniformly polite, respectful, and in keeping with what I see as the "Scout Spirit". When he and I have disagreed he has asked me to clarify my statements, not attacked me either directly or indirectly. His summary posted here is completely accurate from my perspective.

The Scouters whose behavior has soured me on this forum are the ones that consistently attack him, and ANYONE who dares agree with him (knowingly or unknowingly). There are loads of good folks here and yes, as the Mod stated, if all I had wanted was to read the manuals I could do so on my own (have-thanks). I thought that part of Scouting was the comradery? However, being told one is ignorant, stupid, or not entitled to an opinion is completely at odds with what I anticipated in a group of Scouters. As for others saying that things are worse elsewhere and to toughen up - Wow, that's like saying that having herpes isn't so bad, it could be worse. You've still got a disease that will impact your entire life. Add to that the fact that of all places one made up of volunteers to an organization devoted to teaching character to youth should be the last place where issues of character in the adults is an ongoing event and it gets a bit surreal, IMHO.

Sorry to barge in again, but I felt that the misinformation could lead to further problems.

YiS,

-Robert

I am writing this and will then be removing myself from participation on this forum. So, many may want to ignore this post, or worse. They have that right - obviously.

First, I've gotten several back channel emails that have been.....well.....a bit high and mighty. Basically, each of them has implied that since I have admitted to being new to Adult Scouting my views are not worth much. None has offered any, ANY, reasoning to support their positions other than their own self-proclaimed expertise based on their claims to having many years, held various posts, etc.

I'm a reasonably well established professional in my own profession. I can read a manual, listen to a lecture, and ask my own questions. When I have done so, from people I know to be in authority, have read the actual manuals, and formed my own positions I am not merely going to nod like a small child and say "Yes, Sir. Thank you, Sir." whenever anyone asserts that they know better. That is what happens here over, and over, and over again. Seldom do people here offer actual citations, references, or other access via links or quotes to materials that support their assertions. I do when I can. I've also been wrong, and have admitted such here and apologized. However, all too often I see posts that belittle other Scouters instead of trying to educate, inform, and uplift. I see posts that are snide, superior, and just unScout-like.

For example, one post stated that since I had "confessed" to having just been appointed.... (BTW, go read my posts, I never claimed to hold that position - merely to have received the training). Now, in my world to accuse someone of confessing implies rather strongly that they have done something wrong. How is acknowledging openly that I'm new something that I could "confess". Before you write to say that's petty - its an example of a pattern I have seen here with various posters. One example an infestation does not make - but, it sure should make one stop and look to see if its isolated or not.

I've obviously walked into some ongoing in-fights. Thats genuinely sad in a forum that's supposed to be about networking for Scouters to improve programming for Scouts. When I agree with someone that actually cites BSA published positions, ones that are precisely consistent with what I was just trained by those I KNOW to be in authority, and ones that I can go and confirm - I am accused of blindly, and by implication stupidly, agreeing with someone who is ....well things I won't honor by repeating. So, it would seem that I am incapable of being a person of good will who has formed their own opinions because I either disagree with the poster or agree with their nemesis (or both)?!?!

I'm sorry but I thought I had joined a forum of adult Scouters. Men of good will can hold differing opinions and still be good people and worthy of respect. I have seen many, many incidents where that is just not the case here on this forum.

Second, I have said on two different fora here that secrecy seems to be something still tolerated and even encouraged by some here for official BSA activities. I stand by my conclusion based on reading hundreds of threads here over the past month. I can not change anyones position but perhaps I can open some eyes to the fact that this still occurs here. If an adult Scouter asks about a specific part of an official activity of BSA or any of its units they have the right to expect an open, honest, direct, and complete answer. All too often, people here seem comfortable with evasive, partial, or even less than honest answers to such questions. I should not need to receive back-channel descriptions of official BSA sponsored activities.

Finally, pseudonyms are nice and all but they make things difficult. I have had several people claim all sorts of BSA "authority" whose posts and answers do not correspond to what I read in official BSA sources or to what I was taught by people I KNOW to be in genuine BSA posts of authority. That makes me question the honesty of those claiming such positions because their statements are at odds with what I know to be true.

Thank you for hosting this forum. I hope that when I check in to read posts from time to time that I will see a place that I can feel comfortable participating in. For now, I will direct my efforts to improving the operations of my Pack and my District and wish all of you the very best in creating the most interesting and effective Scouting programs possible!

YIS,

-Robert

Does ANYONE here read the content of posts prior to posting? Sometimes I do wonder.

I quoted both the relevant BSA manual AND the actual Commission (you know the document from NATIONAL that says you're a Commissioner) both of which say that "on advice of local Council" BSA National Commissions such-and-such.

Are local Commissioners "managed" by the local Council - yes and no. Unit Commissioners actually are "managed" by the District Commissioner. The ADCs are "managed" by the DC. Roundtable Commissioners are "managed" by the DC. Who manages the DCs? The Council Commissioners.

Who "manages" them does not change who commissions them. A Commission in the US Armed forces comes from where? Does that mean that all Officers are "managed" from that same source or perhaps they have a Chain-of-Command and a local "manager"? Doesn't change who commissioned them nor does it give the local "manager" the authority to commission their own new officers (leaving aside Brevet Commissions for the time being).

(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Before folks take time away from actually working to improve programming for actual scouts, please read my response to Beavah in the original thread.

Thanks.

-Robert

Beavah,

The Commissioner training that I took told me that the main role of BSA Commissioners is to support units, help them access resources, clarify how BSA sets out things to be done, and generally to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. We were also given several examples of how we might have folks in units who had been there a long time, were wedded to how they did things, and would argue that they knew best because of their tenure..........

-Robert

Evmori wrote:

"Just Google "The Game of Life" or "Win All You Can" and you will find it! I question why there needs to be games like this in the 1st place?"

The point isn't that the information is not available online but rather that apparently many associated with WB seem to think that keeping things private, avoiding answering direct questions about the nature and content of the training, etc. is just fine. Yes, I can find out about TGofL online, but then if I've asked a polite and direct question of another scouter about what goes on at WB I really shouldn't have to then go to Google to find out the truth, now should I?

On your second point - I've read loads of posts that describe in varying detail near riots that have broken out at WB training (i.e., directors being physically threatened, people quitting and/or threatening to quit, etc.) over this game. I must agree with you that it seems clear that it has no place in BSA training - even if it CAN work out well when done by particular people under particular circumstances.

YIS,

-Robert

Bob White,

I was referring to the pattern of behavior across multiple posters regarding keeping the information hidden. Many have argued that it should not be talked about, that is a form of secrecy. As for the actions of the moderator - I respect his personal decision and am in no way challenging his right to decide as mod what is, and is not, allowed to be posted.

My point is broader. From my reads here on this topic and in the OA area it seems clear as crystal to me that many still cling to ideas about how things should be instead of abiding by BSA policy on how they are regarding secrecy. Its the impression I have drawn from reading hundreds of threads here.

-Robert

Thank you for letting us know about these additions.

-Robert

I'd honor his stated wish by not singling him out. That said, I'd also given him a framed photo of the boys. It can be done privately with no one involved who does not already know or it can be done publicly but no mention of his financial role can be mentioned. I'd tell him that the photo was just the boys way of thanking him.

-Robert(This message has been edited by docrwm)

To answer your question about the adult earned knots - you can either show your current uniform or the certificate that was issued when you were awarded the knot. As for the AOL - that's a hard one as many adults have lost their certificates or any documentation. Our Cubmaster has gotten replacements by signing a form attesting to something for the Scout Shop. Best bet, wear your current shirt and tell them you need new ones for new uniforms.

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that I should stick to working with those in my local Pack and District as that seems productive and those with whom I interact focus on facts. I've interacted via the internet since the Bitnet days and this is the first time I have ever resorted to the squelch option for any members.

One last attempt - I have posted what the BSA literature that I have gotten from my very recent Commissioner training states. No one has contradicted what I have posted by citing, referencing, or otherwise pointing to any other contradictory authority. What has happened is a huge number of Resorts to Authority - which is a logical fallacy - by merely asserting how the poster "knows things are" and in several instances people have essentially pointed to their chest and implied that because they have more knots they know better. I have also seen personal attacks which are either done snidely or in a veiled manner. None of this impresses me nor does it do much to increase my respect for either the posters or this forum.

I have genuinely attempted to post facts, citations, and be helpful in doing so. On the several occasions, in other threads, where I have had errors in my posts pointed out I have endeavored to apologize and absorb the information. The goal is to both live by the Scout Laws and be improved in my ability to work in making the programs for the boys (I'm a Cub Scouter and we don't serve girls) better.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Interesting assertions and such. Not being a volunteer with Boy Scouts but with Cub Scouts I'll refer to the Cub Scout Leaders Book.

Chapter 23 (p. 23-4) states, in the list of Committee Chair responsibilities, that the Chair:

"Ask the committee to assist with recommendations for Cubmaster, assistant Cubmasters, Tiger Cub Den leaders, Cub Scout den leaders, and Webelos den leaders, as needed."

There is language describing each Committee Members role and nowhere in that langauge for a number of positions (e.g., secretary, treas., advancement comm chair, etc.) does it say anything whatsoever about being responsible for, or even participating in, the selection of adult leaders for the pack.

Taken with what is clearly on the new BSA National Adult Volunteer form regarding the only people to approve volunteers I think its quite clear that the CC and NOT the Committee is responsible for the appointment of adult leaders and the committee is responsible for lightening the selection process load for the CC.

-Robert(This message has been edited by docrwm)

BW,

Thanks. It is secrecy and thats all there is too it. Sadly, I am seeing more of it the more I get involved in BSA beyond my District. Its why I stopped posting to or even reading the OA threads. So far, thank G*d, I haven't run in to it locally.

When I ask a reasonable question about a course I am to take and I get either double-talk or evasive answers I pass on it. I do that as a professional and now, unfortunately, as a Volunteer.

As for the content. Been a manager, been a professor, am a Clinical Psychologist who has taught conflict resolution, active listening, and mentorship and who has been paid way more than $1200/day to teach those things. NONE of it is a secret. No game should be pivotal to what you are teaching - it should be one tool out of many for the same concepts. If that game routinely results in the reactions that I have read here on, literally, dozens of posts then its a bad idea - period.

My thoughts, my opinions, and yes, as someone who was never any kind of animal......

YIS,

-Robert(This message has been edited by docrwm)(This message has been edited by docrwm)

I'm probably going to make more friends with my comments here but.....

A big problem with secrecy or "in group" information is that one defense by the "in group" is to claim that only those who have gone through what they did can truly have an opinion on the ordeal/process/event/experience. Sorry but that is complete nonsense. Like I have told my Cubs - you don't have to jump off a cliff to know it hurts a lot at the end and its stupid under nearly all circumstances.

My problem with ALL this is that BSA has a VERY specific rule about no secrecy. I keep seeing it broken in regards to OA and WB. Makes me wonder as a relatively new BSA Volunteer..........

NeiLup,

No problem. Email is an imprecise communication mechanism at best.

-Robert

There are recommendations for how to distribute the load, yes. However, when one distributes the work that does not mean that the originally responsible party has delegated, or has the authority to delegate, the authority granted to them by the higher agency. What that means is that it may be well and good to have an adult volunteer selection committee in order to lighten the CC's load (Great - all for that), but it is a committee that has several people who can veto ANY action it recommends - the CC, the IH, and the SE.(This message has been edited by docrwm)