Dedicated Dad

cj, I do so love your songs and I have to say my very favorite is My Country, Tis of The. Its been long enough that I couldnt begin to remember the last stanza and how much it means to me, thank you for singing it. Since youve got so much time on your hands would you mind singing it in its entirety?

and I, too, have noticed that several people seem to have quite a bit of time on their hands. Oh my, the nerve of those several people, how dare they have more time than me. Lets see here, last Friday before the close I went long 1K shares of GE at 38.12 and sold Monday at 39.00 also right before the close, that evening I made dinner early and then took #1 son to our wrestling practice until 8:30. Tuesday I placed a limit order on SWFT for 21.00 and the price never reached my bid so did have a lot of time that day but we had our seeding meeting for the upcoming championships and I didnt get home till 11:45, Mrs. Dedicated Dad was not happy. Wednesday I sold short 1K share SWFT at 22.60 and wound up sleeping with it, not my usual practice, then I made leftovers, went to wrestling practice with #1 son and then dropped him off for his BSA meeting and then went to a late business dinner for my wifes firm. Thursday I bought to cover SWFT at 21.82 just before close then had weight practice with #1 son, then made dinner again for Mrs. Dedicated Dad and took the night off. Today, Im putting in a limit order on TOO to sell short at 31.89, well see if it hits my ask, and tonight wrestling practice till 8:30 with #1 son and movies from block buster after that. Saturday, #1 son has Emergency Preparedness merit badge training, Im going with, they didnt have that one when I was a scout. Sunday, no church, wrestling championships start at 7:30 till? Anyway, Ive got too much time on my hands to be writing this, better go now to do my womens work and clean the house.

OK OGE, Where bouts did you go to High School, Leyden, or Proviso East?

HOW does it weaken traditional marriages? (Revisited)It weakens the concept of the traditional, best equipped, ideal family unit. It weakens the traditional family unit because giving equal status perverts the concept of a man/woman relationship and its role in survival of the species. Based on the procreative aspects of marriage the best equipped family is one that has both a stable man and woman for parenting, each to give the lessons and values unique to each gender, giving equal status weakens this concept down the raod. And, because it is the best equipped family unit it is the ideal family. If equal status is given to same-sex couples, then its fair to say bi-sexual triads or more should be granted similar status and next of course would be the incestual marriage followed by the bestial marriage all of which deserve similar status based on the concept of equal opportunity. The ideal is the only legitimate argument for favored standing in the first place otherwise no preference should be granted period, it would all be considered the same, right? Oh, and please save the what about when age, hysterectomy, vasectomy, et al arguments for when procreation is unlikely and why they should have equal status, its because deference is given for the possibility that exists/existed that reproduction could occur at all. Obviously those who pretend an anus is a vagina have no possibility of producing anything but dirt babies. Dont forget its immoral and should not be legally recognized as having the same status as traditional marriage, also please insert usual analogy of how incestual marriage doesnt deserve the same status. Leaglly recognizing same-sex marriage as equal status would of course make marriage legally as immoral or amoral if you will.

Asked and answered mom!

They're defending free speech, they aren't advocating anything about age of consent laws. Of course it does, its like defending those who advocate the right to scream fire in the theater or to demonstrate in a public forum to say, kill the Jews. Youre defending the right to coerce illegal activity. And no, gay marriage doesn't affect other marriages; some churches have performed gay marriages for years. I dont see the connection, how does one affect the other? A conflict of religion and states interests if I ever saw one.

If your case is allowing same-gender marriages, please explain how that is a threat to a traditional marriage. Wow mom, not were defending same-sex marriage? It weakens the concept of the traditional, best equipped, ideal family unit. Dont forget its immoral and should not be legally recognized as having the same status as traditional marriage, also please insert usual analogy of how incestual marriage doesnt deserve the same status. Please also state a case of age of consent laws being done away with by the ACLU. Umm. That would be in their defense of NAMBLA! What do you think?

OGE, youre missing the point entirely and your analogy is loaded. But thats OK, we can still be friends.

Now that I've been drawn into this debate I would like to ask you a question. Let me preface my comments with the statement that I am strongly in favor of seperation of church and state. I do not want government in my religion. Like being drawn into the proverbial bug zapper isnt it? Please lay out for us how, in this instance, specifically how government is in your religion. My question to you is: In plain lanquage why is it so important to YOU that the Ten Commandments be posted on public property? This is a sincere and honest question. Respectfully Paul, Im not sure that you ever responded to one of my queries previous while I answered to both yours and Bobs questions with regards to your imperfect analogy on the other thread. And, I still look forward to those responses, I hold no resentment and am happy to answer this question. I think that it is important for the Ten Commandments to be on public property because its principles (though not all) were intrinsic to the inspiration that formed our government and the ideals that model our society. I think that the Judeo/Christian religion partly represents the basis, though not bindingly, the standard (historically) by which our system of government was formed and the ethics that our civil laws aspire to. The ACLUicans seek to destroy such concepts as marriage, profanity laws, age of consent laws and many other civil laws in the name of liberty. I am not willing to give up the rights of a local legislature to deny the access of legal prostitution or legal drug use into its jurisdiction for the sake of individual liberties. Many of our laws are based on the concept of a civilized society, originally and historically grounded in the principles of the Judeo/Christian religion and I see no reason not to publicly display these principles as they would pertain to that basis of our laws. Again, show me how that is an establishment of a religion, where is the public alter for worship?

There is a fundamental difference between universal and absolute, for example. Do I propose that there are no universal moral imperatives? Alas, correct. Alas, I concur. Unfortunately, as Im sure you already know, were not talking about obligatory rules of moral conduct universally accepted around the world and Im surprised you would frame your opening paragraph around that false premise. Or is it me? If Im guilty of poor writing that gave you that assumption please save your ink, I dont think for an instance that everyone accepts exactly the same things as moral or immoral. The question of an absolute moral code is a different animal. Where the concept of universalism poses the question of scope, absolutism is a question of commitment. I get it. Your isms are about I, I, I, I, I, I The only thing that is absolute to me is me, am I right so far? I have a pretty good grasp of words, I take the Scout Law and my Oath just as seriously. Words ARE subjective things, different in the ears of each of those who hear them. I assume the Oath and Law means much the same things to you, me, and every committed Scouter. Well how can we assume that if absolutes are personal and not universally accepted? The different degrees of Trustworthy must boggle the mind. We could philosophically debate whether trusting your brother not to tell Mom about your fight at school is being trustworthy and by your logic whether the boy whoNEVER tells the truth is being trustworthy because 1. The word trustworthy is subjective and B. trustworthy in his culture may not mean the same thing and third but not least, trustworthy to him (the I factor) may not have the same absolute meaning to him. Do I have this correct so far? Now if we reexamine my post previous I think youll find my reference to by your definition there exists nothing in this world that is universally moral or immoral, is pertaining not to the universal acceptance but as an objective occurrence, acknowledged or not. The holocaust was universally immoral whether the Nazis believed it or not, right and wrong exists objectively. Right and wrong exits and occurs invariably to all whether or not it is accepted or affirmed. The boy who never tells the truth is objectively not trustworthy regardless of how you define it, how your culture accepts it or if you personally believe differently. Absolutes exist universally with or without concurrence or any isms at the end of the word. I am not a student of Baden-Powell but here it goes. He was a world traveler, a soldier, author, a visionary, committed to the youth of the world and the values he so eloquently laid down in the Movement. He did not use his voice to condemn anyone who believed differently than he, or use a tarred brush to brand those outside his vision as sinners. Not that I think youre making that up but do you have a cite for that reference? Notwithstanding, while he was a soldier did he not raise his voice or condemn the enemy while he kindly and courteously slayed his evil foe? Maybe that is how he felt, in other times and places. So what youre saying is that while on a scouting trip and he encountered evil he would be cheerful when he thwarted the perpetrator? Evil exists universally in the world, accepted or not, and I think B-P wouldnt have been contrarian to battle with whatever means necessary. I've yet to come across mentions of the terrible swift sword of self-rightgeousness. Back to self again are we? I, I, I, me, me, me. Righteousness is one of those things that exists independent of any isms, beyond any cultures and selfishness, it stands alone whether the majority or minority is behind you. B-P spoke of these two things back to back. Not to offend one another. To fight for the defense and welfare of their country. Can one fight without offending? This is the conundrum that will plague our debate for some time to come. Talk about it amongst yourselves, well get back to you. Maybe he felt that the actions of Scouts who followed him would say all he wanted or needed to say. I certainly hope so and a big bump to that! My thought was that such venom wouldn't be welcome around any campfire or crackerbarrel I've been to. I cant say Ive been around a campfire/cracker-barrel where someone (Invoke analogy here=>) tried to justify pedophilia and Im not sure how scoutlike anyone could be held to rules of decorum should that happen. Id imagine OLE B-P might offend some in defense such an objective evil.

Oh my my, throw a little red meat out there and you never know what kind of carrion eaters it will attract. BTW, Mr. LeRoy, defend the ACLU defending NAMBLA.

North says he supports posting Ten Commandments

Retired Lt. Col. Oliver North signs autographs for Boy Scouts Daniel Tucker, 10, left, Jacob Schilz, 10, and Johnquez Waggoner, 14, at a patrons' luncheon for the Boy Scouts at the Renaissance Hotel.

By JIM EAST

Staff Writer

Wilson County commissioners made sense Monday night when they unanimously voted to support posting the Ten Commandments in public buildings, conservative radio talk show host Oliver North said yesterday.

North, in Nashville as the keynote speaker for the annual patron luncheon of the Middle Tennessee Council-Boy Scouts of America, said that while he did not like to get too involved with local politics, ''if it happened in my home of Clarke County, Virginia, I would be for it.

''I've got the sense that if 'In God We Trust' is good enough for us to put on our coins, the Ten Commandments ought to be good enough for public buildings,'' North said.

North, a former national security adviser to President Reagan, was convicted of a quintet of charges that included conspiracy, making false statements to Congress and obstructing congressional inquiries into the Iran-Contra affair. He and his boss, Adm. John Poindexter, arranged the sale of arms to Iran and used the proceeds to support the Contra rebels in Nicaragua.

The five 1990 felony convictions against North were overturned when an appellate court ruled that he had been granted prosecution immunity because of his forced testimony before Congress.

Yesterday, North noted that the U.S. Supreme Court on Monday refused to hear a claim by Indiana state officials who sought to erect a 7-foot monument with the Ten Commandments on state property. Appellate judges had barred the Indiana display as an unconstitutional ''establishment of religion.''

At the luncheon, North said that he was the son of a Boy Scout, had been a Scout himself, was the father of a Scout and that he hoped his new grandson, born yesterday morning, would become a Boy Scout.

Eagle Scout Robert Baird, of Woodmont Christian Church's Troop 92, and Life Scout Johnquez Waggoner, of the Morgan Park Community Center's Troop 35, were introduced at yesterday's luncheon, which drew more than 1,200 business and community leaders and is one of the scouting nation's most successful fund-raising events. The luncheon, at the Renaissance Hotel in downtown Nashville, raised more than $1,469,000, Scout spokeswoman Deborah Varallo said.

''It's pretty intimidating,'' Baird said of shaking hands with North. ''I'm trying to get into a military academy, so I think I will ask for his help.''

mom, I'm pleased you are using the compass in your lessons. Dont forget to learn about magnetic north and declination. Here is a site that will calculate the declination reference field for you, hope it helps.

http://www.geolab.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/e_cgrf.html

Dedicated Dad, I've read your posts in many places, to my great enjoyment and benefit. Here, alas, mom was right. You lessen yourself and the uniform you wear with your acid. Debate, argue, contest, rebut, enjoy!, but maybe joust a little more gently. Big Beard, Im only going to respond to a couple things here because much of it has already been covered in depth. One, if morality is individual or cultural then by your definition there exists nothing in this world that is universally moral or immoral and I reject that premise in its entirety. Even tjhmmr acknowledges some things are absolutely immoral though with his relative definition he cannot conclusively prove anything is unequivocally immoral. With your, logic morality does not exist and for that matter words have no real meanings except for what the individual thinks they mean. Therefore our Oath and Laws dont exist because it all depends on what your definition of is is, I mean of Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful and Morally Straight is. And B., with regards to the lessening of myself and the uniform, I would submit the following. I know homosexuality is intrinsically evil. I think the question is what would Baden-Powell do (wwbpd) when he encountered evil. wwbpd if he had a conversation with someone who tried to justify that evil is moral and just? Would he just say I disagree? Would he try to make the person feel comfortable with his/her position? Or would he be a warrior for what is good, right and true? I think the latter, and I am untroubled with that position and how it reflects towards those who disagree. As far as Im concerned, you may as well declare that pedophilia is good and I would treat you exactly the same way. I will never let anyone feel comfortable holding that belief and I will fight you by any means necessary to not allow you to further that position and agenda. When I think about wwbpd in the same situation, in my heart I think he would approve and find righteousness in the effort. So if you want to be the worthy of the uniform or being scoutlike police I would challenge from whom do you receive that authority?

Sorry NJ, I went to publik public school. I dint lern to sel to gude.

Hey Brad, Hey Scoutmom, I checked some statistics and the most recent I could find are from 1996, but I would suspect they are not much different than today. Home School 2.7%Private School 11.1%Publik School 86.2%Now if those who dont publik school are 43.5% here at Scouter.com and the national average is 13.8% that would be an increase of 215.2% of Scouters over the national average. In contrast, if those who publik school are 56.5% and the national average is 86.2% that would be a decrease of 34.5% of Scouters under the national average. Yes the majority of Scouters still use the Publik School System but at an alarming decrease for those who post on this board. Very interesting statistics indeed.

Well, I'll just have to point out that the courts don't agree with your arguments; Not in every Circuit. And like I said, cert. denied is not a precedent. not posting your religious tenets on government property doesn't infringe on your first amendement rights, because it isn't a public forum. You're free to post them on your own property, or carry a sign all day if you like. Back to this again? Where is the governmental endorsement of religion, its not in there! It being used as a basis of inspiration not an endorsement. Apples and oranges. And you still haven't reconciled the first commandment with the first amendment; the government has no business telling its citizens what gods to follow. How can it if there is no endorsement. If there is no endorsement there is no ESTABLISHMENT?

Bump to that BOB!

Dedicated Dad, could you point me to more information about the U.S. laws being based on the Ten Commandments? Are there specific books or authors that you know of that address this subject? I am very interested in reading more about this. Mom, I dont know where to begin other than Im excited for your interest. I would use Google and start with a search for each amendment that youre interested in. No, start with the Constitution, its not light reading but not too long to get through. If you read John Adams you should have no problem with the Constitution, it would be cake for you! Then do your search on each amendment or parts of the articles youre interested in. Read the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge book and become a councilor so you can put your newfound knowledge to work. Good Luck and God Bless. PS. READ THE Federalist Papers!

Which is exactly why the TEN commandments don't deserve Oops, I missed that little jab, its not up to you and the ACLU to determine who or what is deserving of states interest. If you want to have your say, try running for office.

Which is exactly why the TEN commandments don't deserve to be posted by the government; many of them directly contradict the constitution. Again irrelevant. If the Ten Commandments were/are a basis of inspiration for law, as it was for our founding fathers (Jefferson, even though a Deist) to even write the constitution, its tenets are immaterial to the promotion of religion and have nothing to do with the establishment clause.

And no, legislators do NOT have the authority to promote their constituents' religious views. Not the point and repeating it over and over wont make it applicable to a representative government. Do you think it would be legal for a city hall to have a permanent sign saying "don't be a polytheist"? Yes if it had a secular reason for its existence and it was approved by local legislature. What would be the states interest? That isn't promoting a religion, either, so by your reasoning it'd be legal. It would be against the free exercise clause should there be no reason as stated above. Same with "don't be a Jew", or the more sinister implication of "don't be a Jew in THIS town". Again, what would the compelling states interest, a monument to how discrimination raised public awareness? Id be hard pressed to find a context that would work here.

But such a display should not allow your "Gods are myths" sign, because that is a purely religious (anti-religious) statement not consistent with the context of the display. Bob, I respectfully disagree. You can find the law in Capitol Square Review and Advisory Board v. Pinette if youre talking about a temporary/non-permanent sign.

And yet, here I am, having been at various times a member of both. (I let my ACLU dues lapse awhile back.) And why does that not surprise me?

As far as I know, it's still in litigation; I think your example only helps my position, since atheists have to file lawsuits to get their point of view displayed in the same manner as religious points of view. If it was a real public forum, anyone could put up their views WITHOUT having to sue for the right to be heard on the same basis as anyone else. Its the states interests that would weigh on permanent monuments and indeed that would support my point. This is obviously a false reason, as it's always the ten commandments that gets pushed, instead of English common law or the Magna Carta or something like that. Not really, the same case can be made that the Ten Commandments were the origin of these systems as well and its none of your concern how a local issue is determined be valid or not. If they think their laws came from Buddha thats their interpretation. Plus, who's version do you use? Jews, Protestants, and Catholics all number & phrase them differently. Thats irrelevant because the act is not specific to religion but to the origin of law. Tenets of other religions could be used under similar premise. Because it isn't true. Ill concede a few of these but it still isnt called the five commandments. But for fun lets examine the following: "thou shalt not take the name of the lord in vain This can certainly be considered cursing and is not protected against profanity laws. Remembering the Sabbath is remembered in a variety of ways, hunting restriction, state and private liquor distribution, government agencies are closed routinely in the vast majority of states as well as federal institutions over and above local blue laws. Honoring your mother & father isn't enforced by law in the US. Maybe but power of attorney is usually unchallenged from children, why does that honor exist? The ones that are left aren't even close to being unique to Christianity - don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, and don't commit adultery. May as well go back to Hamurabi for those. Thats sophistical at best, its in the Ten Commandments and thats point at hand, not the Magna Carta, English Law or the Hamurabi. I think it's pretty clear that people who support government endorsement of the ten commandments are doing to because they want the government to push their religion. Not really and I reject your insinuation of government endorsement, you havent logically proven that it is. If you want the Ten Commandments on public display, there's no shortage of private property where dozens of such monuments could be erected by the owners, such as churches or the lawns of private homes. They want the government to tell all its citizens to have "no other gods" except Jehovah. And they don't want a public forum where other people can put up contradictory messages, such as "gods are myths". Local legislatures deserve the right to represent their constituents.

FYI, Ive got access to software that searches the headlines for BSA related news. Quite often it has news different than Terrys news Headlines page and vise versa. As long a Terry doesnt mind Ill continue to post these articles as there have been several Scouters here who have been linked to or close to the subject matter.