Dedicated Dad

March 13, 2002

the question you ask "Who is the BSA program is flawed. "what is the BSA program" would be more accurate. Not really, you clarified it nicely at the end of your post, its a who and it is the appeals Board of Review, now all you have to do is tell me who sits on it and where its cited in the SM handbook. There isn't one, nor is there a rule that says they are not OK. the rule that does exist and that was sited early on is that you cannot "add to" or "subtract from" any requirement in the advancement program. Lets see here, we have two mutually exclusive points here. One, if a rule doesnt exist, like there is no rule against incest or as the Honorable Justice Scalia pointed out in Dale v. BSA there are not rules against ax murderers either, is there a need for one? I would contend, no because the BSA is a Traditional Values based organization and piercing, long hair, make-up ,lipstick or wearing dresses are not considered Traditional Values, surely we can agree on that. Second, I think we should examine your mistaken assertion that Membership Requirements are actually Rank Requirements. I think the first clue we have is they have two different names and therefor arent the same. Next, we can see they have two completely separate segments in the SM handbook, which give two completely different directives and therefor cannot be at odds with each other. If the Scout fails to meet Membership Requirements he may be, hopefully as a last resort, dismissed from the troop and is not member in good standing. If he is not in good standing he may not apply for rank advancement, thats putting the cart before the horse. See Membership Requirements. All I'm saying is let's play by the rules of the game. If you don't like the rules that's fine, but no one is forcing you to play. Increasingly its becoming apparent that you think this is some kind of game, I only wish you could accept the rules as they are written and not your personal interpretation. But if you can violate scoutings rules what does that say to the scouts in your care? Well as long as we dont have you pretending rules are being broken I see no consequences at all. As I said before don't sign the advancement if you don't want to. But unless you followed the rules of the program the Scout will be advanced by the appeals Board of Review. And as I asked twice before, Im glad youve finally helped me define who makes the precedent in cases like this. In the appeals Board of Review who has ruled in favor of your interpretation of the rules, and where can I find a reference for these rulings? How often have they ruled in favor of your interpretation? I forgot to include this point that you asked me to address. This is exactly what I said before. Within the scout boundaries (Scouting's membership philosophy) the CO can determine membership (admit or to continue the membership) of the scouts. Notice this does not allow The CO or the adult leaders to alter the advancement requirents. It allows the CO admit or remove scouts from membership. Bob, Im sorry but Im completely confused how you made the leap from Membership Requirements to Advancement requirements again. Are you saying a policy against long hair and piercings, et al is in conflict with the Scouting's membership philosophy?If so, what are legal policies that encompass the youth behavior clause, and how are body piercings, long hair, tattoos, and lipstick considered a race and ethnic background issue?

March 12, 2002

So, DedicatedDad, nothing about jewelry on your list, I see. Umm its been discussed in depth on the other thread, may I direct you to The Redundancy Office for the Department of Redundancy for a position statement? Dedicated Dad, you still have not stated what YOU believe is Traditional/Family values. Mom, Ill bet you a special delivery ice cream feast at your summer camp this summer, for you and your troop, that you can give my exact position on each and every one of the issues I stated previously. I only made the list as a staring point for discussion, there are certainly many more issues to debate.

March 12, 2002

Bob, thanks for copying and pasting that lengthy NEB organizational chart but it has no information to my query. You said: the BSA program will defend the boy from such obvious abuse and advance the scout without your signature. My question is specifically, who is THE BSA PROGRAM in the case of the CO who abused? i.e. BSA Program vs. Abusing CO in this particular case? Is it National, Council, District or what? And, what cases can you cite that the BSA Program has litigated against said COs, and assumably won, to advance the Scout in opposition to COs membership regulations against long hair and piercings? I hope Ive been clear this time. Don't slay the messenger just because you don't like the message. More interpretation? How odd? It seems Im reading verbatim out of the SM handbook and the best you can offer is interpretation for what? Where is the reg that says specifically long hair, body piercings are OK!!! Where! Theres no message here, yet again; Im just wondering where you get this stuff? Mine is on page 139 and it says: Unit Membership

Article XI, section, clause 8, of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America provides a Scouting Unit with the authority to determine its own youth membership. It reads: Scouting units are small, intimate groups. In the Cub Scout and Boy Scouts programs, the units are made up of even smaller groups, dens, and patrols, which often meet regularly in private homes. So long as they are faithful to Scouting's membership philosophy, set forth below, it is for the unit to determine on the basis of considerations such as group size or youth behavior whether to admit or to continue the membership of a youth member.

It is the philosophy of the Scouting movement to welcome all boys and young people, regardless of race or ethnic background, who are willing to accept Scouting's values and meet other requirements of membership. Young people of all religious backgrounds are welcomed in Scouting, some participating in units for youths of a particular religion and the greater majority participating in units open to members of various religious backgrounds.

March 12, 2002

Those definitions are written in every Boy Scout Handbook. Bob, where does it say the part about allowing body piercing and hair length? Where? This is youre answer: The traditions of scouting lay in our Duty to God and Country, Duty to Others and Duty to self. Is this not your interpretation for allowing these behaviors? The Scout Oath and Scout Law are defined by the Boy Scouts of America not by the Chartering Organization. With all due respect to your many years in service, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand the CO cant make interpretations of the Oath and Law for matters not specified in any rules and regs but its OK for you to? That is arrogance beyond belief, why can you make interpretations and the CO CANT?

March 12, 2002

Refuse for such predjudicial reasons as earrings or hairlength, and the BSA program will defend the boy from such obvious abuse and advance the scout without your signature. Bob, still struggling with definitions are we? How can prejudice be against behavior? Further, can you cite any particular cases where the BSA program has defended the alleged abuse? Who is the BSA program anyway, is it National, Council, District or the CO?

March 12, 2002

The Edit function, it mocks me!

March 12, 2002

This is a tricky one. Despite what some may say even atheists, gays and "others" do believe in some of the same values. So do murderers and rapists for that matter. I like NJs suggestion, lets see the list. It would be easier to list an issue and discuss its traditional family values aspects than to try and define centuries of moral and ethical ideals.

Abortion

AIDS

Christian Bigotry

Cloning

Condoms Available in School

Drug Legalization

Education

Euthanasia

Promiscuity

Hate Crimes

Legal Prostitution

Prayer in School

Homosexual Agenda

Liberal Media Bias

March 12, 2002

rhetorictician I looked this one up in the dictionary and couldnt find the definition. It would seem you are being a subliminable justificator trying to confuse me with your strategary.

March 12, 2002

If acting on feeling is a bad thing, then ok, I am bad. Youre not bad OGE, just a little confused about how you arrived at the reasons, reasoning is our basis for defense. Im sure you can answer this question. I love Mrs. OldGreyEagle because

March 12, 2002

http://www.scouting.org/excomm/values/index.html

Try reading all the links here. You will be surprised to find the answer to your previous poll.

March 12, 2002

I wish I could edit my posts.

March 12, 2002

and why I love this one, I cant defend, I selected the one I "felt" best about. Thats some interesting Word Aikido but I suspect a little more went into the processes. Like, All the models had similar repair records, and Love are objective realities and defendable. You love her becausethis car is better because Obviously you have reasons for your decisions and thats not just my feeling. Surely the lovely and gracious Mrs. Old Grey Eagle was not chosen on an irrational basis, there must have been some logical factors which contributed to your decision. Im pretty sure she would be surprised to hear otherwise.

March 12, 2002

As a female leader am I allowed to wear my earrings when in uniform? Am I allowed to wear makeup? Are you suggesting that boys and girls are the same? Or let's look at the flip side -- maybe I should HAVE TO wear makeup because that is the "standard" for women in the United States? Just curious, how could a woman wearing make-up be considered against traditional values?

BTW OGE, do you usually make decisions based on "feelings" you can't defend, is that a good idea?

March 12, 2002

The traditions of scouting lay in our Duty to God and Country, Duty to Others and Duty to self. Agreed, its all in the oath and law. Not in our choice of hairstyle or jewelry. I respect a chartering organization's right to set its own membership requirements that upholds its ideals and beliefs. Obviously not! The only respect you have is for your personal interpretation of the membership requirements. The units have the right to make membership policies on the basis of considerations such as group size and youth behavior and they dont need the Bob White interpretation of this clear and compelling rule. Additionally, the BSA is behind traditional values, and I ask again, do you think body piercing, long hair, purple hair, tattoos, wearing womens make-up or clothing are traditional values? Any of the above? Just one or two? Whats your answer? I expect Scout Leaders to deliver the scouting program not their personal customized version of it in a scout uniform. Bob, you seem to expect your personal customized version when it comes to this subject. How is a troop going to determine its own membership if were not allowed to set membership requirements? Why is Bob Whites version different than the handbooks? I believe your statements reflect predjudice because you pre-judge the behavior of people based on a physical characteristic. How did they get that physical characteristic, its not the color of their skin analogy because they certainly werent born that way? Their behavior is apparent and visible, theres nothing to judge. If a unit wants to base its membership on the social norms of TRDITIONAL VALUES, its pretty easy to see when a Scout is pierced, tattooed or wearing make-up and lipstick, there is not very much pre-judging involved. Scouting discriminates. We take a known behavior make a determination as to whether it is good or bad. As an example Atheism, scouting believes that it is a behavior that is in direct conflict with a scout's Duty to God, and so we do not except atheists. We do not select a physical characteristic such as an an earring and say "Bad citizen" or "Doesn't respect his country", "Won't help other people", "Probably abuses drugs or alchohol". That would be prejudicial, and predjudice is something scouting does not endorse of participate in. Predjudice is in direct conflict with a the scout Law "a scout is Friendly", and with a scouts promise to help other people at all times. I never said or implied those things, it would seem that those are your prejudices manufactured from whole cloth. It is antisocial behavior, which is deviating from the social norm, and theres plenty of research to back that up and yet its irrelevant to the point. The membership requirements clearly states that a unit can choose its own members and they may interpret body piercing, tattoos, and womens make-up are behaviors and not physical characteristics and are inconsistent to being clean, morally straight or consistent with Traditional Family Values. Why would you deny them these rights as set down in Rules and Regulations, why? You DD, have shown trenendous predjudice in your comments. Well I guess if you write your own definition of prejudice as being AGAINST BEHAVIOR AND NOT THE INDIVIDUAL, then you got me Bob, Im also prejudiced against gambling too. Whether you do it from the thrill of the hunt to find a juicy debate, or from actual belief or merely gross ignorance of the scouting program. Nope, its a right and wrong issue for me all the way! And I base it on the Membership Requirements rule, there is no belief required, its all done with our comprehension skills. You, on the other hand, seem to base your opinion on your personal interpretation while ignoring the rather clear and concise rules, your comment about ignorance is laughable. I no longer care what thought if any are behind your comments. others reading this string will have to choice which approach they view as scout like. Scoutlike? Which is more scoutlike, Traditional Values or body piercing, purple hair, make-up and lipstick? Its clear to me and everyone else your agenda is to change the social norms of the BSA to universally accept poor behavior and that is NOT Scoutlike. I just can see it, in my minds eye, your version of an Eagle Scout candidate coming up for his BOR accessorized with an eyebrow ring and tongue stud, blue eye shadow and lipstick, purple spiked hair, fingernail polish and wearing a dress. In your world, nothing I said here can be against any policy, and it will be a sad day for the BSA indeed. I hope that they make that decision only after they reread this string and then read the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Boy Scout Handbook. I invite them to then choose who has represented the scout program and who has not. Well at least we agree on something, cheers!

March 12, 2002

Nope, just no ACLU would be fine by me. Its not a big stretch of the imagination to see the Klaus VonBullow's and the NAMBLAs of the world go without representation as any great loss to society, surly the traditional values civil libertarian JDs would pick up the slack.

March 12, 2002

The Boy Scouts of America have regulations controling proper uniforming, we leave accessorizing and hairstyling to the legal parental authorities, not to the personal prejudices of adult volunteers. Bob, Im a little troubled by this statement and I was wondering if you could clarify a couple points? First of all arent accessorizing and hairstyle considered to be behavioral choices, and if they are behavioral choices and if the troop rules do not permit such behaviors then it really doesnt matter whether the parents approve or not, does it? At what point, in your expert opinion, does the accessorizing and hairstyle come in conflict with the units right to determine on the basis of considerations to continue membership? Shouldnt a unit be able to determine its own behavioral standards that dont include, purple hair, wearing make-up or womens clothing, body piercing and tattoos? And second, youve labeled those who disagree with you as having personal prejudices and Im just not sure how one can be prejudiced against behavior, surely you dont think I hold an ill will towards the individual, do you? How many ways can the BSA state its firm stance in support of traditional values, do you think these behaviors are considered to be traditional values, I dont! And you know, using tactics to demonize those who simply disagree with particular behavioral choices as being prejudiced is quite characteristic of certain people who disagree with certain other BSA policies in general. It would seem that your vision of the BSA is very different than those who see it in line with the traditional values the BSA stands firmly behind.

March 11, 2002

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/02/03/14749571.shtml?Element_ID=14749571

254 Boy Scouts receive Eagle award at ceremony

The highest distinction from the Boy Scouts of America the rank of Eagle was awarded to 254 teens in ceremonies yesterday at Vanderbilt University's Langford Auditorium.

''Nationally, only 2% of all Scouts earn the Eagle rank,'' said Marty Dickens, president of the Middle Tennessee Council Executive Board. ''The Eagles we salute proudly join an honored group of more than one million young men who have earned the rank since 1911.''

Eagle is the seventh rank a Boy Scout can earn and is a performance-based achievement, Dickens said.

To become an Eagle, a Boy Scout must fulfill requirements in the areas of leadership, service and outdoor skills. As he progresses, the scout must earn a certain number of merit badges, accept a position of responsibility within his troop and be of service.

Nashville Mayor Bill Purcell, himself an Eagle Scout, delivered the keynote address, and Steve Dickert, vice president and general manager of WKDF, WGFX and Tennessee Titans Radio, was chairman of the event.

March 11, 2002

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/lv-ed/2002/mar/10/513153668.html

March 10, 2002

'Good Turn' program unites Boy Scouts, Goodwill

By Ed Koch

LAS VEGAS SUN

Some people would give the shirts off their backs to help those in need, and that's the type of generosity Las Vegas area Boy Scouts and Goodwill of Southern Nevada are hoping for.

The two charitable agencies have teamed up for "Good Turn Day" next Saturday to collect tons of clothing to be sold in Goodwill Thrift Stores to help fund the agency that provides jobs for the physically and mentally disabled of Southern Nevada.

And while the Scouts won't exactly be asking for the shirt off anyone's back, they are looking for quality apparel.

"The term we like to use is 'gently used clothing' -- in other words something that you would give to a friend to wear," said Steve Chartrand, president and chief executive officer of the Goodwill, which operates five thrift stores in the Las Vegas Valley.

"In addition to clothing, we are looking for small household items, books, jewelry, stereo equipment -- things that we can sell in our stores."

Mike Miller, spokesman for the Boulder Dam Area Council of the Boy Scouts, said when the organization was approached with the idea for a joint project with Goodwill, they thought this venture was right up their alley.

"For our annual 'Scouting for Food Drive,' we have had as many as 8,000 Scouts collecting canned goods each November, but for this first-time event we are looking at about 3,000 Scouts from 90 area units participating," Miller said.

The Scouts this week will be fanning out throughout the valley leaving on doorsteps large white and blue plastic bags with the wording "Do a Good Turn for Goodwill." Also on the bag is a photo of Houston Astros pitcher Mike Maddux, a Las Vegan who currently is at spring training camp but is serving as honorary chairman for the drive.

Local television stations are running public service announcements with Maddux promoting the event. Officials hope to collect 10,000 filled bags, the contents of which will be sorted at the Goodwill warehouse at Patrick Lane and Pecos Road.

Goodwill figures to gross about $20 per bag in eventual sales.

Chartrand said the idea for joining forces with the Boy Scouts came from an existing Goodwill/Scouting venture that has worked well in the Pacific Northwest.

"The Portland, Ore., Goodwill has had a relationship with the Boy Scouts for 50 years," Chartrand said. "It combines the need the Goodwill has to raise money to fund its services with the philosophy of helping others, which has been a function of the Boy Scouts since its inception."

Miller said each participating Scout will receive a "Good Turn Day" uniform patch and the satisfaction of having done a good deed for a group that helps people become self-sufficient.

Also, any Cub Scout or Boy Scout uniform donated to the Goodwill will be given to local Urban Boy Scout units to be distributed to children from families that cannot afford to buy new uniforms, Chartrand said.

Miller and Chartrand said in recent years joint ventures between nonprofit agencies has become a healthy trend, with Goodwill conducting projects with such agencies as the Rape Crisis Center and Aid for AIDS of Nevada, and the Boy Scouts working with the Salvation Army, Catholic Charities and others.

Such joint programs, they said, help avoid duplication of services and better use available resources.

The Boy Scouts will return next Saturday to the homes where they left the empty bags to collect full ones from front porches and bring them to 16 drop-off points throughout the valley, including the five thrift stores. From there, the bags will be transported by Goodwill to the warehouse to assure quality control and accountability, Chartrand said.

March 11, 2002