Cubby's Cubmaster

This is going to be an interesting post.

I know that we talk (and write here) a lot about leadership and being boy-led. Leadership IS the main reason I have my son in boy scouts and why I encourage him to be in it. As I tell other leaders that prefer adult-led...my son and I don't need to join scouts to go on outings. We do that anyway. A reason I encourage him to be in boy scouts is to learn to lead and work well with others. I firmly believe that Boy Scouting is the best place for training boys to lead. In boy scouts, the crucible for leadership and peer interaction is the patrol. We boy scout leaders spend a lot of time encouraging boy leadership and getting to the ideal (and 'Holy Grail') of a boy-lead troop.

My view is that some of the scout skills and methods we use are a bit outdated and not overly useful in the 21st century. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE scout skills. And my enthusiasm for them is contagious. However, how useful really is it to know 10 knots or so, 5 lashings and to be camping in a tent as frequently...to name a few? Now some will say, ABSOLUTELY very useful. But I ask myself, HOW OFTEN do I use scout skills at work and home? Rarely is my answer. Outside of scouting, when was the last time I tied a knot (4 times in last month--same one didn't need to know a taunt-line hitch), a lashing (never), needed to live in a tent (never--and hopefully never!). I realize that scout skills is a tool to get to an end--and we all agree that one of those ends is LEADERSHIP.

So, I found it interesting this Saturday morning when my girl scout--whose fraternal twin is a my new boy scout--said, "I'd like to earn an award like by brother". So I looked up Girl Scout awards, she is in 6th grade and can earn the Silver Award. However, while searching for the GSA awards to earn, I found a link I posted below on the NEW GIRL SCOUT LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE that GSA recently rolled out. Frankly, I was very impressed. It puts the the boy scout leadership training (and adult leadership training, too) I've seen to shame. Rather than focus on self-directed goals (like merit badges) it puts leadership on all the girls. Badges have their place but selecting, leading and doing a service project is the cornerstone of demonstrating leadership. Being an Eagle scout myself, I know that the eagle project is comparable and usually larger than the Girl scout project--depending on scout, troop & council. However, they way that GSA has put leadership as THE focus of their program shows me a lot. Click on the link below. Boys are already behind on standardized tests, going to college, graduating from college, getting into medical school, etc. etc. It won't be long before more boys will be staying at home and girls out working. I think that we and the BSA should take notice and determine if we indeed have a 21st century program that prepares our boys to be future leaders and future bread-winners. The GSA certainly seems to be ready to do that for our girls. Kudos to them.

http://www.girlscouts.org/gsle/

Regards,

CC

Not much to add to this post except my own personal experiences with both the Parvuli Dei and the Ad Altare Dei. I earned the AAD as a youth and my son earned PD as a Webelos scout. My AAD was done as a class of 12. The AAD focuses on the sacraments. It was a lot like my CCD preparation for Confirmation. I enjoyed the group discussions in the ADD class and the breakout sessions in small groups. I think it added a lot to my understanding of my faith. I don't think a one-on-one with the AAD counselor would have been as good of a learning experience. This was my experience. As for the PD, we followed the guidelines and I worked with my son directly. Our local catholic church pack ran it as a den program. Given the topics covered, I think it is better to do PD as parent/son. The shared experiences and sharing of faith together were good for both of us. As Stosh says...you're mileage may vary.

Regards,

CC

There certainly are a lot of reasons to let him move onto scouts and a lot of reasons to let him stay for his W2 year. My son crossed over last spring. He's have a great time in scouts. He had a great time in cub scouts. All den leaders run things a little different and all boy scout leaders (boys and adults) do things a little bit differently. I think the key is to ask your son what he wants to do. Many boys are in scouts to be with their friends and to have fun. If he 'skips a grade' and his friends don't join boy scouts with him, he might miss them and miss out on the experiences shared with friends. Don't be in a hurry to move him up. While technically it might be possible, I'd recommend you keep him with his grade and his friends. When I was CM, the only time I recommended a cub scout to join scouts before February/March of the 5th grade was if he just moved into town and wanted to join scouts for the first time, at that point, it makes more sense to start as a boy scout than to start as a 5th grade cub scout.

Don't expect a perfect scout experience. Many of the things we adults find important are of minor importance to our sons. Being with friends and having fun were the most important things for my son. Also, be careful moving your son to boy scouts too soon. I joined scouting when I was 12 and starting 7th grade and thought it easier for me than scouts that started at age 11 and 6th grade. Now that I am an ASM I see a big difference between 11 and 12 year olds. Waiting until his W2 year is up might make scouting easier and put him in an even better position to learn the more challenging scout skills and take more responsibility on his own for his progress. Good luck.

Regards,

CC

jr56, That is how we did it in cub scouts. We'd bring all scouts of the same rank together to get the award. We'd have the parents behind the scout to hand the rank and get a Mom's pin. I haven't seen that done in boy scouts. But in a large troop it makes sense.

I agree that bringing scouts up one at a time when there are 50+ scouts is too time consuming and all get tired quickly. Rank promotion makes a lot of sense.

Now for the other awards, in cub scouts we'd put them in a baggy and not talk about them. How would you handle those? Not mention them...or Bring up everyone earning First Aid together then Lifesaving, etc? Kids earning more would get more exercise. ;-)

Regards,

CC

To answer a few questions...

1. COH is boy-led but not very exciting. It should be thrown back on the PLC how they want to make it more interesting.

2. Scouts getting awards show up and others do not.

3. Like the COHs, attendance at troop meetings is more common for the newer scouts than older scouts...a common trend.

4. We are a large troop so COHs can take a while.

Regards,

CC

I've noticed that attendance at Courts of Honor is linked to whether the scout got an award or not. Not surprising. So way less than half the troop might show up for any Court of Honor.

My question to the forum is this...how to increase attendance at Courts of Honor? Or is unrealistic to expect scouts not getting an award to attend?

Regards,

CC

My son joined a troop this year and they had a court of honor in

June (lots of new scouts reaching Tenderfoot)

September (lots of scouts getting Summer Camp merit badges)

March (lots of scouts getting Merit Badge Challenge merit badges)

Plus, Eagle Courts of Honor occur when the new Eagle wants so they can be scheduled at various times of year.

My question to the forum is this...When does your troop have a Court of Honor?

Regards,

CC

Great responses!

Let me focus the question...if you HAD to restrict the number of new scouts entering your troop, how would you do it?

Let me take a stab at an answer, accept W2s from my charter organization's pack first. Next, pick whole dens where there is solid adult leadership and commitment in place. Accept single scouts to round out patrols based on already having friends in the troop or another strong tie-in. Of course, I'd recommend to scouts not joining to join other troops. (In my career as cubmaster, I once had to turn a cub scout to another pack as the Bear den he wanted to join was already at 14 with a stressed out den leader. I really hated doing it and the scout didn't stay with it as he really wanted to be with his friends in our pack. A year later, during fall recruiting, he joined our pack as several openings came and loved it.)

Regards,

CC

Great comments!

So Beavah & Stosh (and others that want to chime in)...

Would a large troop be more effective using mixed patrols or patrols by school grade?

My thoughts are that patrols by school grade would be better as they are have similar interests, similar advancement path and are likely already friends. So when planning outings, it isn't practical to take the whole troop, but there could be a new scout patrol program, middle and older one. So the entire troop meets at a weekly troop program but they are on different outings. I could see such a troop have campouts 2 weekends a month. Thus they could use the same gear over and over and not have 13 chuck boxes, 2 trailers and over-use a campsite. When camping as an entire troop, likely the Troop Method would be used as there wouldn't be enough gear but the duty roster would have patrols rotating through the troop kitchen taking on duties of cooks, clean-up, water, etc. Seems doable and allowing for the Patrol Method to be the primary method.

Regards,

CC

Building from my related post..."Can a Troop Be Too Big to Run the Patrol Method?"...

If a troop is concerned about becoming too big for it's facilities, gear, resources, adult leadership and ability to maintain a quality program, do such troops restrict the number of new scouts allowed to join? If so, how do they select who is in and who is not? (This is a similar issues as the college fraternity 'Rush' selection process.)

Regards,

CC

Our troop participated in Peterloon last month. (A bi-annual event since 1930 that brings 5000+ scouts from Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky.) Walking through the 5 sub-camps, I noticed some very large troops (80+ scouts).

Assuming a patrol has 8 boys, then a troop of 80 could have 10 patrols. 104 scouts would give 13 patrols. Meaning 13 dining flys, 13 chuck boxes, 2-3 troop trailers, etc. Using the 100 yard rule, we'd need 7 or so football fields to have a troop campout! I can see that using the Troop Method would make this easier as food is cooked in one central place and boys camp in tents with no particular patrol makeup. That is how it appeared at Peterloon. While I realize space was tight and this was a special situation, I wonder how those troops function on a regular campout.

My question to Scouters Forum is this...at what point does a troop become too big to run the Patrol Method effectively and using the Troop Method is inevitable?

Regards,

CC

I introduced ScoutTrack to my pack when I moved from another state. Prior to that the cubmaster keep spreadsheet advancement records. And the pack committee chair kept the email list. Needless to say, it was very difficult to keep accurate records. People were left off of emails or old emails didn't get deleted. Advancement ceremonies would be followed by a line of parents saying "My scout didn't get ______ and ______ but they earned it."

I've looked into the other programs and ScoutTrack fit our needs best: cost (used to be $45 per year), accessibility (online so every parent can access it), advancement (parents & den leaders enter in advancement; ready made reports to track scout & pack progress; however, it would be better if they interfaced with the BSA for reporting purposes), email list (parents get a password and update their own email, phone addresses, etd.), storage for pack e-files like camping plans, calendar (great tool; sends out reminder emails!, tracking leader training...I could go on. But bottom line, go with an online system so that all can use it and benefit from it...it definately is worth paying $50 per year to do it.

Good luck!

Cubby's Cubmaster

My 2 nephews ages 14, 12 each earned 9 merit badges at Jambo this year. I was shocked! They decided they'd work their tails off. They got to the merit badge midway when it opened and worked all day every day except the last day they were there. They would have earned 10 each but on the last day they rested and enjoyed the Jambo activities. Go to hand it to them in that they applied themselves...but whew!

I attended the 1981 Jambo. I did most of the Jambo activities, earned the 'rocker' patch and never thought about doing the merit badge midway. One reason was I could do merit badges at summer camp or with a troop merit badge counselor--so why waste my time at Jambo doing that. Second reason was there was so much to do...I didn't want to miss it. Before I aged out of scouts, I earned a silver palm so I had no regrets and was glad I did the Jambo activities and not the merit badges.

I see from my son's experience (he is an 11 yr old Tenderfoot) that summer camp merit badges are more of a focus than when I was a boy. Some of his friends earned 7 merit badges at summer camp--two earned 8! I never got more than 5 and that was full time work back then, because when I was at summer camp, we cooked for ourselves and had planned troop activities that we didn't want to miss. Back then, most scouts earned 2-4 merit badges during the week. Kids these days don't cook and they don't have much in the way of planned troop activities at summer camp--so I they have more time to work on merit badges.

All in all, IMHO I think merit badge and rank requirements are harder these days than when I was a scout. I know the kids have more time at camp (and Jambo if they choose) to earn them. I don't think they are treated differently than I was as a scout as far as fulfilling the requirements--that is, I think the merit badge counselors do their best to ensure the scouts actually do the merit badge work.

But seriously, I wonder what their scoutmaster will say when he find out about them earning 9 merit badges at Jambo!

YIS,

Cubby's Cubmaster

Hi, Basement Dweller. Our pack has a Move-Up Family Picnic the Thursday before school lets out for the year (usu. the last Thurs of May or first Thurs of June.) The pack provides the grilled meats KNFs,plates & napkins, the pack families brings the sides, desserts, drinks etc. It is one of our most popular events as we play games until past dusk.

If the pack runs a surplus we give out neckerchiefs, slides & books. We bring out the pack bridge and have the kids walk across. We also give out leader gifts at this end of the school year event. This year, we advance in rank at the BG Celebration in March and Move Up to the next level by den at the Move Up Picnic in June. Our advancment is over 90%, leader participation at monthly leader meetings is at all time highs and we've got most of our leaders trained and are requiring it for any new leaders. Overall, the Move-Up picnic is part of the program that helps make scouting fun while giving the kids a message that they are no longer tigers but now wolves, no longer wolves but now bears, etc.

Hope this helps.

Cubby's Cubmaster

Hi, MNBob. Our pack's ceremony isn't posted online. We don't have a heavy Native American theme to ours. We recognize the boys and give our the AOL patch and Arrow/Plaques.

Of note, this year we changed our BG Banquet to a BG Celebration. We charge nothing for it. We dispensed with the dinner and are having desserts. At the beginning of the year, we got DL buy-in to have scouts advance at the BG and not at monthly pack meetings. Thus we are at 92% of the pack getting their advancement for the March BG. We also moved the BG from Feb to Mar so that it would give more time to finish. This worked out well. I expect the pack will continue it next year.

I've just about finalized our BG ceremony with our CM for this Friday. I was hoping to get more ideas to share. Please pass along good ideas to share for future BGs.

Regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster

Hi, MNBob. Our pack's ceremony isn't posted online. We don't have a heavy Native American theme to ours. We recognize the boys and give our the AOL patch and Arrow/Plaques.

Of note, this year we changed our BG Banquet to a BG Celebration. We charge nothing for it. We dispensed with the dinner and are having desserts. At the beginning of the year, we got DL buy-in to have scouts advance at the BG and not at monthly pack meetings. Thus we are at 92% of the pack getting their advancement for the March BG. We also moved the BG from Feb to Mar so that it would give more time to finish. This worked out well. I expect the pack will continue it next year.

I've just about finalized our BG ceremony with our CM for this Friday. I was hoping to get more ideas to share. Please pass along good ideas to share for future BGs.

Regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster

Our pack's Blue Gold is March 19th. Our pack has done the same ceremony for the last 5+ years. I'm looking for some new ideas. Please post your recommendations for the best AOL and Crossover ceremonies.

Kind regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster

I'm looking for some great ways to raise more money for a cub scout pack. We do popcorn in the fall. Considering a fund raiser in the spring to help pay for summer camp.

Thanks in advance,

Cubby's Cubmaster

Here are my 2 cents worth...To get better attendence, you need two things: (1) a good reason for parents to bring their kids and (2) send LOTS of reminders as parents are very busy and meetings can fall through the cracks.

As for a good reason to attend, I've found that I've got two consituencies to please: the kids and the parents. I've found these groups have different likes and dislikes. So at our pack meetings we try to give both groups a reason to come. For pack meetings, we plan big things to do to help build excitement. This year we did the following:

Aug - Water bottle rocket derby

Sept - Den Midway & ice cream social

Oct - Cub Scout Olymipics (with participation medals)

Nov - Raingutter Regatta

Dec - Took off. (Pack went ice skating which was lightly attended.)

Jan - Pinewood derby

Feb - B/G banquet (which was not well attended--even with Mad Science for entertainment.)

Mar - Zoo Animal demo presented by Cincinnati Zoo

April - Bike rodeo

May - Pack move-up picnic

We assign these to a den to run or else the pack committe does it. Each den will run one pack meeting's activities during the year.

I've used the BSA Program Helps & BALOO Helps for some activities (even from past years) but I always keep focused on activities that will keep kids & parents interested and not necessary what the program helps say to do.

I've found that the crafts are a good idea as all kids like to do them--even the 5th graders. Plus, parents like to help, too.

I'd rotate in fun activities every other year so they don't get stale.

Getting more parents involved also helps with attendence.

We've used 'Cubby' our stuffed bear mascot as a prize to the den with the best attendence and best uniformed.

Having cookies and water at the end of the pack meeting is always a plus.

Here is an idea our pack doesn't do...Handing out prizes or patches at each den or pack meeting. Have a perfect attendence patch to give out at the end for the scout that gets all the patches. I don't think we've felt a need for it.

As for communication, we use Scouttrack.com and its automated calendar feature to send a reminder 1 week and at 2 days before an event or meeting. Instead of a newsletter, I send out a pack update email once a month noting the future activities. We have the pack calendar to hand out at the beginning of the year so that all are aware of what we are doing.

Hope these ideas help.

With regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster

Thanks for the info. One item to clarify. Does the number of years chartered have to be continuous?

Regards,

Cubby

I've got a technical uniform question. My DE says we can wear a 50 yr patch. The scout shop staff didn't want to sell me a patch saying it is tied to the number of years with a charted organization (CO). So I'm throwing out this question to the board...

Our Pack's unit number '405' has been used since the 1950s. Since 1973, we've been located at a local elementary school. Four years ago, we changed chartered organizations to a local church but we still meet mostly at the school and now sometimes at the church for big events like Blue Gold, Pinewood derby, etc. If we count all the years that '405' has been used in our Council, it is over 50 years. If we count the group that has meet at our school, it is 36. If we count the time since we've been with our new CO it is 4.

Which Veteran Bar are we allowed to wear by the rules?

Kind regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster

Hal is right. You can do it without one parent per child for wolves, bears and webelos. You'll need the a tiger's adult partner with each tiger. Have at least one registered leader be BALOO trained. Fill out the Tour Permit with your council if you are going to a place other than your local scout reservation.

One question to ask yourself, "Do you want to allow a scout to go without his parent/guardian?" Our pack requires at least one parent to go. We encourage families to camp with us. So, we often get Moms & Dads plus brothers (potential boy scouts) and sisters (potential girl scouts). As CM, I like having the parents present as discipline problems are few and far between if I can ask a parent to "help out" their child. I'd allow another adult to take a scout if the parent couldn't make it...but only as an exception. Our pack has 56 scouts and I don't know all the boys as well as I would like to. Having parents there helps keep things in control. Also, I have parents to help prepare the meals and run activities for the scouts. With so many potential volunteers our camp runs itself.

Regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster

Let me take the other side on this issue. I think it is okay to welcome all the Web IIs to boy scouts by letting them walk across the bridge at a crossover ceremony. Troops I've had participate in my pack's BG will have the green loops to give the scouts...even those that don't join their troop or any troop for that matter. They don't give other items usually. Last Saturday, one troop gave a numeral patch to those that joined their troop in addition to the loops.

For those scouts that don't immediately join a troop, allowing them to crossover with their fellow Web IIs sends the message that these scouts are still welcome. I've had parents lie about their son joining a troop to get the scouts to show up and not really join, too. So we cross all Web IIs over to boy scouts and don't require all to join scouts. We always have scouts joining a troop so there is always 1 or more troops at our ceremony. About 60% stay at in boy scouts after a year including those that said they weren't joining scouts.

I didn't join scouting myself until 7th grade at age 12 and earned Eagle at 14. And I have been active in one form or another for 20 years. I remind these parents whose sons don't join boy scouts that their sons are welcome to join boy scouts next year or later when their son's interests change, sports teams are harder to make and they are looking for a place that is familar, fun with a positive influence on their son. Often this generation of kids is "overscheduled" as a friend of mine says. Keeping the door open is important...I don't want to be seen as closing it to these boys. They'll crossover with their fellow Web IIs and if they don't join a troop, think about what they are missing and not feel excluded.

I think being too dogmatic on these issues like who crosses over turns many parents off to scouting...which in reality means we lose the boy.

Regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster

PS...I know I'm taking a minority view here...so be easy on this junior forum member.

The centennial tan & green numerals are worn on a centennial tan scout shirt regardless of the level of scouting. The shoulder loops signify the level of scouting.

The official red and white numerals are work on other official scout uniform shirts that are not the centential tan, that is the cub scout blue shirts, female scout leader yellow shirts, venture crew green shirts and the non-centennial tan shirts.

I just bought a centennial shirt and wear the tan and green centennial numerals.

Note: That the centennial tan and green "trained" patch is worn on the centennial tan shirt and not the red "trained" patch. These are the only 2 patches (numeral and trained) that are different between the scout shirts.

Hope this helps,

Cubby's Cubmaster

Hello, Fellow Scouters. My sister lives in a New Hampshire rural town with a population of 5,000. She has one son in boy scouts, another is a Webelo II and a third is eager to become a Tiger Cub Scout next year. My sister guided them through cub scouts as most parents do. My boy scout nephew is very interested in the outings his troop does. However, when it comes to advancement, my nephew is having trouble getting merit badge counselors. He has been trying to wrap up First Aid merit badge from summer camp. After returning from camp, he was assigned a merit badge councelor so he can finish the badge. However, the merit badge counselor he was assigned hasn't been good at returning his phone calls. My sister and nephew are getting a bit frustrated. She called me looking for advice. I advised her to talk to her son's Scoutmaster. She has. He response was "Keep trying". I told her to recruit more merit badge counselors. She told me that in her community there isn't as strong of a committment to scouting (e.g., scouts can't meet in schools). And that finding scout volunteers is a difficult task. Her response was "Everybody is tapped out." My nephew's options for joining other troops is limiited as well as they already travel 20 miles each way for troop meetings.

I was wondering what his options are to get Merit Badges. Living in a rural community, my nephew doesn't have too many choice for MB counselors. Many merit badges aren't covered at all. It sounds almost like a Lone Scout situation. I can image it will be a long road to Eagle if he has trouble getting First Aid merit badge completed due to a lack of merit badge counselors and their commitment to the program. Any suggestions?

Best Regards,

Cubby's Cubmaster (Eagle Scout 1980)