CNYScouter

The SM is has no issue with letting this group sit with no POR and no advancement.

I had a discussion with the SM about the group with no POR's

He doesn't think any of them with end up making Eagle.

He'll support their efforts if they want to do it but he doesn't think most of them are willing to put the effort in to make it.

In the 2 years I have been the ASM I have been really pushing to become more boy-led and do a better job with the Patrol Method.

We still have some of the long-time Adults who can't seem to let the Scouts make decisions

I think it's harder to train the adults sometimes than the Scouts

There used to be a way to do a spin off topic but I couldn't find the function so I started a new topic - No youth willing to be Troop Quartermaster

Yes the guy has taken Scoutmaster Basic training. He just thinks the BSA program old and antiquated.

As most of this has happen in the last week or so I haven't had time to talk with the COR or CC

I wanted to spin this off from another posting about the comments of having an Adult Quartermaster

When my son and I first joined the Troop 2 years ago there was a (youth) Troop Quartermaster.

When he got elected SPL no other Scout was willing to take the POR and an adult has been filling this role ever since.

Currently in the Troop there are 5 or 6 Life Scouts with no POR.

When they didn’t get elected as SPL or a PL they choose not to do a POR

They all have been offered the position of Troop Quartermaster but all have turned it down as being “too much workâ€Â.

What do you do when no Scout wants to fill a POR in a Troop?

FYI – a couple of weeks ago a 12 year Scout who just made 1st Class has agreed to be Troop Quartermaster.

How many people have you asked to be Scoutmaster?

Have you taken the training “Selecting quality Leaders�

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/522-981.pdf

Instead of waiting for someone to volunteer, follow this training and put together a short list of 3 or 4 people who you think would be a good Scoutmaster and ask them to take the position.

They don’t even need to currently be in the Troop or even in Scouting.

Many people are waiting to be asked and won’t volunteer for the position.

Many time the people who volunteer are the control freaks who end up doing everything and alienating everyone around them

I spent well over 10 years looking for a Troop with my older son that uses the patrol method and never really found one.

As a DC I was surprised how few Troops around here really use the patrol method or adults who understand how it works

My son's current Troop is far and away the closest I have seen using the patrol method I have run into

When I say Troop Quartermaster, he was the adult who worked with the youth Quartermaster.

He is also the person who maintained the troop trailer and took it for the yearly inspection.

He was also the person who refilled the propane tanks and purchased charcoal.

He also made the purchases of new equipment.

Up until 3 weeks ago the Troop did not have a youth Quartermaster. No Scout wanted the position.

There was a youth quartermaster when we first joined 2 years ago but he became SPL that June and we haven’t had one since.

I think we have 5 or 6 Life Scouts with no POR because they are unwilling to take on any type of real responsibility in the troop.

My son's SM is perfectly OK with them not advancing if they aren’t willing to put any effort in.

One of the boys who crossed over with my son finally made 1^st class and said he would take the position of Quartermaster.

This was 3 weeks ago and he hasn’t been to a Troop meeting or activity since.

So some ones got to do it

I am currently an ASM in the Troop and I am pretty sure I am on the short list to be considered for the next SM

I don’t think this guy will ever be asked to be the SM.

For one he has said he doesn’t want the position.

The current SM knows some of what’s going on with him and would never give this guy his recommendation

To be honest I don’t think I want the position if this is going to be one of the ASM’s.

The low turnout of the crossovers was disappointing

Usually crossovers are not invited to the Feb campout as it happens the next weekend after they cross.

Due to scheduling of the Klondike Derby and crossover this year we moved the Feb campout out so they had almost 3 weeks of being in the troop beforehand.

The PLC took this into consideration and made this a fun cabin camping trip.

Last month at the Klondike an ice storm has taken out the power at the camp but they had it fixed. As we were sleeping inside I don't think gear was the reason

It seems that with this group of crossover scouts comes last. if there is anything else scheduled they do that first

I have to say in the 2 years I have been with the Troop we have had pretty good turnout.

I think the worst turnout we had was last January for a winter tenting trip that had 17 Scouts on it.

2 part question

A little background first

The SM and a long time ASM of my son’s troop, met in Tigers and both their son’s made Eagle and aged out in 2014.

The ASM was the Troops Quartermaster and has pretty much stopped doing anything since last spring.

The SM has been involved with the Troop since 2001 (with an older son) and has been the SM for the last 6 or 7 years.

Even though the SM makes Troop and PLC meetings he just went on his first campout with the Troop last weekend.

He has spent more time with his son and Daughter’s Venturing Crew than the Troop this year.

So basically these two have checked out but not stepped down.

There is another ASM who has decided that after 3 years of sitting back and just being a body on a campout once in a while he going to step up and fix things.

The only Scouting background he has is the 3 years he has been in the Troop. He has taken SM training

After a few conversations about the future of the Troop I’ve gotten this from him.

During our discussions I said that for a Troop to be successful using the Patrol Method, the adults need to all be committed. He said he would not be committed to using anything.

He doesn’t think we should be using the 8 Methods all the time. We can toss them depending on the situation. He is always suggesting that we combine/split up patrols on campouts.

He has stated that are others ways to do things besides the boy scout program and we should use them

The Boy Scout program was developed by BP over 100 years ago and it is old and outdated. We need to use new ideas.

The SM has it clear that we use the Boy Scout Program and the Patrol method. When I reminded him as ASM’s we are here to help the SM fulfill his vision of the program his response was “he will do no such thing. Everything he does is for in best interest of the boysâ€Â

He has also decided to take over as the Troop Quartermaster.

On the Committee side the Fundraising is pretty disorganized and he is going to get involved and fix that too.

He now going to be at all campouts and so he can make sure we are doing what’s best for the boys

The SM had to go out of town for work and asked him to be the second adult at last month’s PLC meetings. He is now planning on attending them all and went ahead and invited all the other ASM’s to be there also.

He also basically told one of our committee people they could be an ASM. I don’t know why our SM doesn’t want the person as an ASM but that’s the SM’s call,

He asked how the committee meeting ran. He doesn’t think that is being run correctly so he will be attending all of them to see if he can slowly fix them too.

…and he plays in a band and is going to concentrate on getting his band playing out more this spring

I have to say my son’s SM has done a pretty good job with the Troop. In the two years since my son and I have joined he has have really tried to be a boy-led unit and use the patrol method.

I think these are the reason the Troop has more than doubled in size and we have done a pretty good job with retaining the scouts we have.

Personally I think this guy is full of it – all talk and no action. He has done very little as quartermaster.

He didn’t go on the campout this weekend. Half the propane tanks were empty and he never put together a 5^th patrol box.

I just found out that someone else is helping with the next fundraiser – he couldn’t make it

From my discussions with him he doesn’t really have an understanding of the different methods of Scouting and he has little or no practical experience – but he’s an expert at all of it

My concern is that he now has the other new adults convinced that the boy-led and patrol method are not the way to go and to move away from using them.

What do you do with an ASM like this in this situation?

Part Two

The SM has said that he will be stepping down in the near future.

It could be as soon as this Fall but it could go on like this for another year.

I see this ASM as being a real problem to deal with for the next SM for the Troop. (he has said he doesn't want it)

If you got asked to be the SM how would you deal with this person?

I am looking for ideas to increase attendance on monthly camping trips

It’s not that we are doing bad a job compared to what else I am seeing out there but I think we can do better

An example is this weekend’s trip.

We are going to the local Scout camp in a rustic cabin (no Elec and a wood stove for heat).

With the temperatures going down to -10 deg. Friday night we still have 25 out of 38 scouts going, but only 2 of the 8 WEBELOS that crossed over a week ago are going.

As a side note - we have rented the biggest cabin at the camp and with 7 or 8 adults going the cabin will be full.

I think a couple of the adults are bringing cots to make sure there are enough places to sleep.

We do get a little higher numbers once the weather gets better and get over 90% of the Troop attending summer camp but I think we can do better for out monthly trips.

Any ideas to increase attendance?

Does your Troop use the Troop Meeting Plan Worksheet?

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34425.pdf

You will not find a time on this for Merit Badge Instruction.

<"1. At Boards of Review (non-Eagle), the candidate is hazed. The room is set as if it were an interrogation. He is challenged on nonsensical BSA rules (does he have the correct sock on the left or right foot). He is asked questions that do not pertain to his advancement, his views on the troop, or areas he might improve. Finally, a charade is put on where the Scout is asked to leave the room while the Board "discusses" his candidacy - we do no such thing. Then, he returns and is told that "if his book is signed, he has achieved the new rank - if not, he may request another Board in 2-3-4 weeks (whatever the leader makes up on the fly). [Nevermind that ASMs are always present]"

I am all for having some fun (Left-Handed Smoke Shifters anyone?) but this is just not what we are supposed to be about.

If they are asking more than one nonsensical question I can see this as hazing but asking one of these question maybe someone's way of trying to "lighten things up" I am with Sentinel947 that asking a scouts views of the troop or areas he might improve are questions that should be asked of a Scout.

Any board I have sat on has asked the Scout to leave the room so we could discuss things

How often are they turning down rank advancement? In the almost 20 years I have been a leader (and 3 years as a District Commissioner) I have only heard of a Scout being turned down for advancement 2 or 3 times. If it happening on a regular basis there is an issue.

2. Knowing full well that every Troop meeting can be set up in many fashions, ours has no structure and the entire 20 minutes of closing (where the Scoutmaster's "Minute" is supposed to be) is just insane.

If a Troop meeting looks like what I like to call "organized chaos" it is most likely boy-lead. To most adults a troop meeting look like they don't have structure but Scouts are learning to do things.

I agree that a Scoutmaster minute is lasting 20 mins is insane. Has anyone discussed this with the SM? - talk with your Unit Commissioner

3. Sometimes, no effort is made to communicate with the entire Troop (on Troop wide items of course). Last year, for example, the Troop was invited to assist with the local Flag Day ceremony. The SM and ASM only shared this with 3-4 Scouts who got to experience a nice event. The only way that the other 26 Scouts found out about it was when pictures showed up in the local paper. There's a clique-y attitude in the leadership. [For the record, I'm the type of person who would have been upset if we were invited and later found out that others weren't]

I have been in Troops like this. I just quietly looked around and found another Troop as they are never going to change.

It took me over 10 years to finally find a Troop that uses the Patrol Method and is boy-lead.

I have done this before and here’s the step’s I took.

Find 2 or 3 older Scouts or Venturers, no more than 2 or 3, that would be interested in organizing the event.

At your first meeting have some ideas on Camp-o-ree themes and events to start things off.

Usually the Scouts need ideas to get them started but once they begin most of the time they can come up with good ideas on their own.

I’ve posted previously that my son is a Den Chief assigned to a WEBELOS 2 den

He was assigned to this den so I could help out.

I have been asked by both the Pack and Troop leadership to “get the WEBELOS ready to be Boy Scoutsâ€Â

Not only is this den behind in advancement (only 1 out 7 have the WEBLEOS badge) but after sitting back and observing the Den for a couple of weeks I am seeing some other behavior that just won’t fly when they move up to a boy scout troop.

1. There is one boy who doesn’t stand during the pledge much less the promise. The other WEBELOS are very inattentive and screw around during this also. I have yet to see the DL say anything to the boys.
   
2. They don’t wear their uniforms. Last week the DL told the boys that the CM was going to do a uniform inspection not a single Cub was in uniform. I heard one boy tell his dad that he wasn’t going to wear that “monkey suitâ€Â.
   
3. Tucking in of the shirt. The couple of WEBELOS that I have seen in uniform won’t tuck the shirt in. I had to ask one boy 3 or 4 times to tuck in his shirt before he would do it and he pulled it out as soon as my back was turned. My son’s troop won’t even start a meeting until all the Scouts are ready
   

I am not sure what do about this as when I was a Den leader the expectations for this type of stuff was told in the beginning and it usually took a couple of meeting with some gentile reminders and the boys understood.

I’ve posted previously that my son is a Den Chief assigned to a WEBELOS 2 den

He was assigned to this den so I could help out.

I have been asked by both the Pack and Troop leadership to “get the WEBELOS ready to be Boy Scoutsâ€Â

Not only is this den behind in advancement (only 1 out 7 have the WEBLEOS badge) but after sitting back and observing the Den for a couple of weeks I am seeing some other behavior that just won’t fly when they move up to a boy scout troop.

1. There is one boy who doesn’t stand during the pledge much less the promise. The other WEBELOS are very inattentive and screw around during this also. I have yet to see the DL say anything to the boys.
   
2. They don’t wear their uniforms. Last week the DL told the boys that the CM was going to do a uniform inspection not a single Cub was in uniform. I heard one boy tell his dad that he wasn’t going to wear that “monkey suitâ€Â.
   
3. Tucking in of the shirt. The couple of WEBELOS that I have seen in uniform won’t tuck the shirt in. I had to ask one boy 3 or 4 times to tuck in his shirt before he would do it and he pulled it out as soon as my back was turned. My son’s troop won’t even start a meeting until all the Scouts are ready
   

I am not sure what do about this as when I was a Den leader the expectations for this type of stuff was told in the beginning and it usually took a couple of meeting with some gentile reminders and the boys understood.

There is only about 9 or 10 Den meetings left before they cross over so It’s not like they is a great deal of time.

....and as I have said in my other posts the parents are expecting these boys to crossover at the B&G. They have already asked the Pack CC to "waive" AOL requirements so there son's can crossover.

so you ignore that BSA National excludes Atheist's from being in the BSA?

If I had the link I would have posted it but so far I have not gotten one from the DL nor can I find anything doing a search myself.

I am more than just the Den Chiefs Dad in this situation.

Because this Den is so far behind in advancement I have been asked by both the Pack Leadership and the Troop leadership to work with this Den so they can cross over to Boy Scouts by the B&G in Feb.

I was given a copy of the Den’s Advancement record from both the Den Leader and the Pack Committee Chair.

This Cub has earned all his ranks up until this point.

After seeing this Den operate I would have guess that this hasn’t been an issue before as the DL just gave the cub a pass on this requirement

I am guessing this because of two reasons

1. The DL had no idea that Atheists are excluded from joining the BSA.
   
2. Because they are so far behind the parents in this Den has asked the Pack Committee chair to “waive†any unfinished requirements so their sons can get AOL awarded at the B&G s they can cross into the Troop in Feb.
   

I have passed this information along to the COR, CC, Cm and the UC for the Pack and Troop to dela with this issue

My son is a Den Chief working with a second year WEBELOS den.

One of the reason’s he was assigned to this Den is so I could help the DL as this Den is way behind with advancement. I am currently registered as a Committee Member in this Pack.

Only 1 of the 7 WELEBOS left in the Den has finished the requirements for the WEBELOS badge. (there were 12 or 13 last year)

Only 2 of them have the Outdoorsman activity pin finished

Last night I was reviewing what requirements were needed for the rest of the Den to get the WEBELOS badge.

One WEBELOS only needs to finish the Character Connection for Faith.

When I asked the DL what was issue with this Scout finishing, he responded that the family was Atheist.

The DL said he found a work around/alternate requirements on the internet for this and the Scout just hasn’t done them yet

I have never heard of this nor have I heard of this in any training I have even taken or taught.

I have tried a few searched but have so far come up empty

Has anyone provide a link to this “work around�

I have notified the Pack leadership (and Troop Leadership) about this and they are deciding on how to proceed.

I don’t know how the Scout made it this far as he has been in the Pack since Tigers and it has never come up before.

Our council has a mantra of “We don’t Cancel†and will hold events/training no matter what

I don’t get this attitude that holding something and doing it lousy is better than canceling the event.

Here are a couple of examples:

I am teaching at my council’s Scouting U tomorrow

One of the classes I am teaching is in the Sea Scout section.

I was copied in on an email yesterday from the other 2 instructors telling the organizer that they were not driving the +3 hours for the low turnout that has preregistered and the classes should be canceled.

These classes only have 2 or 3 people attending.

The organizer wrote back that “we don’t cancel†and these classes will be held “no matter whatâ€Â

So what will happen is that someone unfamiliar with the program will be slapping together a class or winging it trying to teach the topics.

Take away the 8 scouts for Den Chief Training (6 from my son’s Troop) there are less than 25 people total signed up for Scouting U.

If I paid money, took the time to drive there and gave up a Saturday to go and the training was not very good I wouldn’t be happy.

If my son wasn’t taking Den Chief training I would be asking the same time about canceling.

I am teaching 3 classes – one has 2 people signed up – 1 has no one in it – the 3^rd has 3 signed up.

I have to think this “we don’t cancel†attitude has something to do with the poor turnout

Another example is one of the District Camporees that our district put on a couple of years ago.

At the District meeting 2 weeks prior to the camporee it came out that nothing had been planned.

The District Commissioner at the time gave the cry “We don’t cancel†and volunteered the commissioner staff would do the camporee.

This camporee only had 3 units and 25 people show up.

The camporee consisted of an opening of the pledge and one of the district staff throwing a football and Frisbee on the ground telling the scouts to go have fun.

One unit just packed up and went home.

As a side note the District Commissioner was a no show at the camporee.

This was one of the last camporees the district tried to do on its own.

Camporees are now held jointly with another district.

Can one of you explain to me why holding something and doing it lousy is better than canceling the event?

We usually don’t have patrols bringing food to Troop meetings as it is split up either before leaving the camp site or in the parking lot at Sunday pickup.

Most food is left because the patrols aren’t following the planned menu. The cans of corn were left over because the patrol was just too lazy to open and cook them.

Last year we had a problem that the PL’s “forgot†to bring a copy of the menu they had planned so they had no idea what they bought was to be used for.

This year has been better with the PL’s remembering menus but now can’t remember to bring the recipes for what they want to make.

We have been struggling in areas like this as we have grown in numbers pretty quickly.

My son crossed over 1-1/2 years ago. Between his large den and a bunch of walk-ins the troop doubled almost overnight.

Since then we have picked up even more and are now close to 40 Scouts on the roster.

The majority of them 12 and under including 3 out of 4 PL’s.

Last winter I was talking with an adult from another Troop who was just made the unit's membership chair.

The Troops numbers were falling and the Pack with the same CO had folded

He was looking for ideas on increasing membership

A week or so later I ran into the Troop's ex-Sm who had stepped down last year

He said he thought this Troop was in trouble because they don't camp

None of the Scouts wanted to camp.

They scheduled campouts but no one would sign up to go.

So it's not just younger Scouts that don't want to camp

As to getting the younger scouts to go camping check out the "Just Camping" thread

Don't just go camping - have some type of activity planned.

It's a fishing trip not a camping trip

Go to camporees- they don't have to be your districts or even in your council - if you see something interesting go to it

Right know I am trying to figure out how to make "Magic: the Gathering" card game into a live-action contest to do at a campout

Eagledad hit it right on the mark.

We meet in a church also where the Troop meeting room is used by a different group every day of the week

In both cases the food was left for someone else to deal with.

The only reason I know who left it was I saw the PL bring it in and talked with the person after the meeting who left it in the Troop Room.

In my son’s Troop each patrol plans their own menu, collects the money, shops for the food and cooks their own meals.

The problem with over buying on this campout was that the PL was going to shopping with 2 new Scouts that just joined the troop to teach them how to shop.

The PL’s father decided that his son was NOT going to go shopping and the new scouts were left on their own. (I found this out at the camp out).

Not only did they go way over budget (~$25 over) but I saw like 70 Poptarts and a huge box of cereal for Sunday breakfast. This was for 5 or 6 Scouts. In the boxes left at the meeting, there were 2 large cans of corn. 1 was big enough to feed my family of 6.

The SM said he was going to sit down with this PL and his parents (this was not the only time one of this PL’s parents has caused an issue) but I don’t know if this has happened or not.

One of the problems is we can’t just leave the stuff as the meeting room is used the rest of the week for other groups.

Knowing this PL (and his parents) unless I physically place the box of food into his hands it will stay right where it is until 6 or 7 months from now when myself or another ASM has to throw it away.

At the last Troop meeting I saw a PL bringing in 2 full boxes of leftover food from the last campout. (which in itself is a whole other issue)

When the meeting was over I saw the full boxes sitting on the floor of the meeting room and the PL gone.

There was only one patrol member left which I caught just as they went out the door.

The patrol member and his parent went through the boxes, threw out any open stuff, took a couple of things and said that they were going to put the rest in the Troop room the church gives us to be used later.

My response was “We don’t allow food storage in the Troop room. Take it home or throw it outâ€Â.

We have had problems in the past where food is put in the Troop room and forgotten about. Months/years later when someone decides to clean the troop room out, they find it and end up throwing it away.

I had to go back later in the week and get something from the troop room and guess what was there? The box of leftover food.

So what do you do with the food?

Sunday is the monthly PLC do you have the SPL give it to the PL then, telling him he forgot it at the last Troop meeting?

Or wait until the next Troop meeting and have the SPL give it to the Scout and Parent who put it in the Troop room?

Or just take it and donate it to the Scouting for Food Drive next week?

I could also do what everyone else does and just leave it and let someone else deal with it (Which seems to be the norm in the troop lately)

I would to get to the point our patrols go camping on their own. It's only since I have joined that we have encouraged the patrols to start doing things on there own.

Personally I think there needs to be a combination of "planned" activities and free time.

One thing I am seeing on our campouts that with any freetime they are sitting around playing "Magic" (the card game)

last weekend we went to a camporee that had over 550 events offered. I found the Scouts sitting around playing cards.

LeCastor - I have lived in the Syracuse ,NY area just about my entire life except for a couple of semesters in college. I have been to the Hillcourt museum at Camp Woodland mnay times.

On the way home from my son’s Troop meeting I asked him if he was going on next month’s campout.

He asked where it was and what activities the Troop was doing.

I told him where the Troop was camping but there are no “real†activities planned it was just a camping trip.

He’s said he wasn’t interested in just going camping

How many of your Troops just “camp†with no planned activities?

Is my son’s attitude a reflection of the times where youth need to be entertained or is “just camping†boring for a Scout?

My son’s Troop is in the process purchasing more/new equipment due to a growth spurt and stuff just wearing out.

We are looking a switching to using a Coleman lantern with a 1lb tank or getting LED lanterns.

Currently each patrol gets a 20lb. propane tank with a tree with a hose adapter to a stove and a lantern attached to the top.

The problem with these is the lantern glass breaking due to not getting the tree on correctly and the lantern falling over and letting the lantern fall over during take down.

We also ran into an issue with running out of spare mantles.

One option we are looking at is getting LED lamps for each patrol. This would mean carrying extra batteries.

I am wondering what your experience with the large LED lamps are like.

Are they any more durable or are they just as easily broken?

I see some get up to 75 hours of use on a set of batteries. Do they actually get this? We don’t want to have to replace batteries every campout.

I highly recommend Yawgoog Scout Reservation in Rockville, Rhode Island. Scenes in the movie "Moonrise Kingdom" were shot there. I have head that they are already full for 2015 as it's the camps 100th anniversary.