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I had 3 three scenarios in my head going into this last night as possible out comes of the board

1. ​He declared himself an atheist - we would have denied advancement
   
2. He was still unsure of his beliefs - we would have postponed his board to give him more time to think
   
3. He declared himself a faithful believer in some faith - we would have granted advancement
   

In the end, he was somewhere between 2 and 3. Still unsure, but has a Protestant Christian background and that is influencing his beliefs, or maybe "want to believe" would be a better fit. He expressed a belief a "God" but was unsure what that meant, and wants to find something to believe in, and is actively searching. In the end he was granted advancement to Eagle. He was very well prepared for the board and handled it quite well.

I truly believe he is going through a rough time in his faith, and just trying to figure things out.

Below is what the EBOR will be reviewing before we meet with the Scout.

Eagle Scout requirement #2

• Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life.
  
  • The 12th point of the Scout Law, a Scout is reverent. The Boy Scout of America defines reverent as:
    

“He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion.â€Â

1. A Scout must demonstrate that his lives by the “duty to God†point of the Scout Oath. The Boy Scout of America defines “duty to God†as:
   

“Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.â€Â

1. A Scout must demonstrate that his lives by a portion of the “morally straight†point of the Scout Oath. The Boy Scout of America defines “morally straight†as:
   

“To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.â€Â

Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle, taken from the Youth Application

I think it is important to first remind ourselves of the Scout Law, especially the helpful, friendly, courteous, and kind points. We need to keep the board lighthearted feeling of the board that we always try to project, but at the same time keep in mind the seriousness of the issue at hand.

Taking into account the points of the Scout Law listed above, we should be as helpful to the Scout as possible. We all have taken the Scout Oath, which requires us to “help other people at all times.†I believe this should include us doing everything to help this Scout advance, within the policies of the BSA. I believe that we should allow the scout more time to examine and explore his beliefs if needed. Our personal beliefs must stay out of the conversation during the board, it is about the Scout and if he has completed the requirements and meets the membership standard.

While the policies of the BSA repeatedly refer to God, the BSA has left defining this to the scout and his family. The BSA has a history accepting faiths that do not have a God, such as Buddhism. Buddhism does not believe in a God, but is considered a religion or faith. The BSA recognizes its religious emblem, and Buddhist temples chartered 69 units in 2013. Other examples recognized by the BSA include Jainism, that believe there is no God, and Hinduism in which followers may or may not believe in a God. What I am trying to get at his that the BSA has a history of accepting Scouts that do not have a belief in a God per se, but have a religion or belief that they are faithful to, as long as they do not label themselves atheists.

Any last advice, we are reconvening the EBOR tonight.

I think this is just more of a reason the BSA should follow the traditional international scouting program model(some of the names vary country to country)

Under 10/11 Cubs

10/11-14/15 Boy Scouts

14/15-17 Venture Scouts

18-25/26 Rover Scouts

Very little on this has been published. From what can be gathered on page 3 of this document, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/venturing/pdf/VenturingFAQs.pdf, starting March 1st, 18-21 year old Venturers will register as adults, but become adult participants .

Adult Participants:

~ Register as adults, follow adult membership standards, take Youth Protection, have background check completed

~ Participate in Venturing like youth, can earn awards, hold leadership positions

~ Tent, shower, use bathroom facilities with adults

~ Can not date adults

~ Do NOT count as adult leadership/part of 2 deep leadership

The change will happen over 3 years as a phase out. All Venturers 18-21 years old registered before March 1st will not have to submit an adult application until they turn 21, attend a high adventure base, or serve on a staff, such as camp staff. See the matrix below for full details.

Youth Protection Training and the background check will be completed at the time the adult application is submitted.

[TABLE=width: 500]

[TR]

[TD]Status[/TD]

[TD]Age[/TD]

[TD]Action[/TD]

[TD]Enforcement[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Currently registered Venturer or Sea Scout on March 1, 2015[/TD]

[TD]18 years old or older (Born before March 1, 1997 and, therefore, turns 18 PRIOR TO March 1, 2015)[/TD]

[TD]No action necessary so long as the Venturer/Sea Scout is continually registered in the same unit.[/TD]

[TD]The member must meet all adult membership standards but does not require a background check now Youth Protection Training.[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Currently registered Venturer or Sea Scout on March 1, 2015. [/TD]

[TD]Younger than 18 years old (Born on or after March 1, 1997 and, therefore, turns 18 ON OR AFTER March 1, 2015.[/TD]

[TD]No action necessary until the youth turns 18 at which point he/she registers as an adult and meets all requirements of an adult; enters the adult participant phase (still coded as a Venturer/Sea Scout[/TD]

[TD]Youth Protection Training and background check will be enforced when the adult application is turned in at the next time of charter renewal. If the member turns 18 within 30 days of the charter renewal, enforcement will take place at the next charter renewal[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]New Venturer or Sea Scout on or after March 1, 2015.[/TD]

[TD]18 years old or older and less than 21 years old (Born before March 1, 1997)[/TD]

[TD]Registers as an adult and meets all requirements of an adult, but is an adult participant (still coded as a Venturer/Sea Scout) [/TD]

[TD]Youth Protection Training and criminal background check are enforced at the time of application. Member must meet all adult membership standards[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]New Venturer or Sea Scout on or after March 1, 2015[/TD]

[TD]Younger than 18 years old (Born on or after March 1, 1997). [/TD]

[TD]Registers as a youth Venturer/Sea Scout (as usualâ€â€no change) [/TD]

[TD]No enforcement required.[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Venturer or Sea Scout (current or new) who applies for an adult leadership position, such as camp staff. [/TD]

[TD]18 years old or older (Born before March 1, 1997 and, therefore, turns 18 PRIOR TO) March 1, 2015. [/TD]

[TD]Registers as an adult and meets the same requirements as adult leaders as part of the leader application process. [/TD]

[TD]Youth Protection Training and criminal background check are enforced at the time of application. Member must meet all adult membership standards.[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Latest news from their Facebook page:

This happened last week, from what I understand there will be 10 councils that this program will be rolling out to this year.

From what I understand the BSA is moving away from PowerPoint presented training, and to more of an instructor focused training.

denials for Scoutmaster conferences' date=' denials for boards of review, denials of ranks.)[/quote']

 

 

Sounds like this Troop needs a visit from the District Advancement Chair and a Commissioner, there is a much bigger issue here than refusing to give a blue card, the entire advancement system is broken. How active of a role does the Chartered Organization play in the troop? I would suggest having the Chartered Organization Representative attend when the District Advancement Chair meets with the troop, he is position to tell the troop what they HAVE to do.

 

 

While I assume you have been pouring over the GTA, I will give you a few more quotes from it.

4.2.3.5: Unit leaders do not have the authority to deny a Scout a conference that is necessary for him to meet the requirements for his rank

 

8.0.0.2 A Scout shall not be denied this opportunity. When he believes he has completed all the requirements for a rank, including a Scoutmaster conference, a board of review must be granted. Scoutmastersâ€â€or councils or districts in the case of the Eagle Scout rankâ€â€for example, do not have authority to expect a boy to request or organize one, or to “defer†him, or to ask him to perform beyond the requirements in order to be granted one.

 

As for denying a rank, I assume this means all requirement are met including the board of review, this is not addressed in the GTA because once the board is complete, and recommended for advancement, the scout is now the next rank. If this is not how it works in your troop, you have some major hurdles to overcome and these people have not place in scouting.

 

If they do not get their act together, then your son, and his friends, should start looking for another troop.

 

You need to refer to Guide to Advancement, the BSAs advancement rule and policy book, particularly section 7 which covers the merit badge program. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

First, the Scoutmaster is out of line with requiring that a scout be a third year Scout. The GTA is quite clear on the matter of adding to the requirements.

You really need to review topics 7.0.0.3 and 7.0.4.7 in the GTA. No where in the GTA does it say that a Scoutmaster can withhold an Application for Merit Badge, AKA Blue Card. Since the counselor was registered and the activities were properly supervised then I would suggest that the young man be awarded the merit badge. He made a good faith effort to contact the Scoutmaster, and other than getting it the merit badge application signed off by the Scoutmaster to start with, everything was done correctly. I hope the Scoutmaster did not call the boy back to simply deny a Blue Card by inaction.

If the scoutmaster and committee do not budge, I would recommend sending in a Reporting Merit Badge Counseling Concerns from, 11.1.0.0 in the GTA, to the council advancement committee.

Two articles to read from the Scouting Magazine Blog would be

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/201...e-card-issued/

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/201...equirement-10/

Below is a quote from the second link by the head of the National Advancement Team of the BSA:

Have you ever see anything like this parent participation form? You could base one on your packs needs from this form. The idea is that it is required that every family contributes 100 points annually as a condition of their sons membership in in the pack.

http://www.bsa-sjac.org/filestore/doc/CubScoutPackAdultParticipationFormSample.doc

We are taking the approach that a Scout is helpful, friendly, courteous and kind, and that a Scout will help other people at all times. We are willing to do everything possible to see this young man get his Eagle, within the policies of the BSA. When we reconvene we will ask questions such as those I previously posted.

• If he stands firm in his previously stated beliefs, he will not advance.
  
• If is wavering, we will give him time to think things out.
  
• If he has "came to Jesus"(just an expression, any God would be acceptable), we would postpone the board once again, to give him time to demonstrate that he can live by the Scout Oath and Law before he turns 18.
  

Fred, he was very firm in no belief in God, higher power, FSM or anything. For me there are two key points.

The first is has he completed Eagle rank requirement #2? It states, “Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life.â€Â

• 12th point of the Scout Law, a Scout is reverent.
  
  • The Boy Scout of America defines reverent as: He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion
    

  [*]He must demonstrate that his lives by the “duty to God†point of the Scout Oath.

  • The Boy Scout of America defines “duty to God†as: Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
    

  [*]He must demonstrate that his lives by a portion of the “morally straight†point of the Scout Oath.

  • The Boy Scout of America defines “morally straight†as: To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.
    

The second point is does he meet the membership standards of the BSA which state:

• Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and © demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
  

With his statements, I am questioning whether he is eligible for membership, and therefore advancement, per clauses (a) and (b).

If he has not completed requirement 2 or he does not meet the member standards of membership, he will not advance to Eagle.

Can we please get back on topic. qwazse listed a few good questions to go over with the young man. With those and some I have came up with, I have this:

• What is morality?
  
• Where do your sense of morals come from?
  
• What dictates what is right and wrong?
  
• How important is it to you that the best explanation for all things excludes intervention from a higher power?
  
• Do you believe it is possible to believe in science and a higher power?
  
• Where did we call come from? Where did that come from? Etc…..
  
• How important is it to ensure another person's practice of religion as he/she sees fit?
  
• What does “duty to God†mean to you?
  
• Do you think that you live up to the “duty to God†and “morally straight†points of the Scout Oath?
  
• Do you think that you live up to the 12th point of the Scout Law, a Scout is reverent
  
• Why do you think that the Boy Scouts have these principals?
  
• Have you ever been asked about you duty to God in your troop?
  
• Would you defend the right of other to practice as they see fit?
  
• What do you think of others pursuit of religion?
  
• How do you respect the religious convictions of other people?
  
• Why would you want an award from an organization that has an oath that requires you to do your best to do your “duty to God"?
  
• Are you aware that in the Boy Scouts of America the definition of God is left up to you and your parents?
  
• Do you think that you meet the membership standard of the BSA?
  

What other questions would you guys ask?

We asked him a few more questions about the issue, and then moved on to other topics.

T2E, while all of the board members are protestant Christians, we are all aware of the BSAs requirements of faith in the DRP, Guide to Advancement, and its definition of reverent. We are only looking for an answer that satisfies the BSAs requirements nothing more, and nothing less. The answers you gave would be perfectly acceptable to us for the purposes of the EBOR.

If this young man comes to realize that he believes in something, it is not our place to grill him on those beliefs, but it is our job to ensure that he has done his duty to God, and that he is reverent, as defined by the BSA. I think the easiest way to find out is to simply ask him if he thinks he has as a scout is trustworthy.

qwazse, thanks for the advise. I am willing to let this go as long as I can, assuming he is willing to do some soul searching on his beliefs. But if he is steadfast in his denial of a belief, that is a different story.

The statement was made during the EBOR, and seemed quite set in his beliefs, and was quite perplexed when he was informed that a belief was required for membership in the BSA. He was asked which point of the scout law he thought was the hardest for him to follow, he stated reverent, and went on to say he had no beliefs.

The EBOR was postponed for one month.

I should have been a bit more clear. What questions would you ask to the young man to really gauge if he means what he is saying. Examples would be(I'll admit that I have a Christian background, that is why I am asking your guys input, so that I can get some better questions to ask):

If there is no higher power, then what dictates what is right and what is wrong?

What happens when you die?

You believe in the big bang theory, then where did the single point of matter come from?

​

Without going into any specific detail in the case, during an EBOR what questions would you guys follow up with a Scout that expressed that he had no belief in a higher power?

If you take a look in the Guide to Advancement, section 3.0.0.2 list 14 things that a district advancement should do. #14 states:

To strengthen units through strong advancement programs, consider the following:

District advancement committees need to be proactive, and work with troops to ensure address issues early.

I am currently a district advancement chair and my committee needs to work on the above!

The Guide to Advancement is very clear in that a Scout may only have one EBOR, if a Scout is "failed" for any reason, the only recourse he has is an appeal. A better course of action is to simply postpone the EBOR and let the issues be worked out and then reconvene it later, but sometimes they are just to complex to fix, especially if they go back to the lower level ranks. We are currently have a standards of membership issue that we are working through this way.

Below is the actual policies from the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/BSA_Charter_and_Bylaws.pdf

No matter how simple someone may break it down,"you only have to believe in a higher power", what is below is the official policy of the BSA.

ARTICLE IX. POLICIES AND DEFINITIONS

Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.†The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

...

Clause 4. Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.

I completely understand the concerns about the old fogies aspect, and that is one of the things that I have addressed when putting together my staff. While I have great respect for the older scouters in the district, I feel in roundtable we need the energy of younger folks. I am 35, the Boy Scout RTC is a few years younger than me, the Cub Scout RTC is her mid 40s, and all three Assistant RTCs are in the 50's.

JoeBob, that is exactly the type of feedback I am looking for. As much as I want to know how to get them to attend, I need to know why they are not attending.

I have posted this on a few Commissioner groups on the internet, just thought I would get some ideas here

I am an Assistant District Commissioner for Roundtables in a large, but rural district that is approximately the size of Rhode Island, but with about 1/10 of its population, and we have 28 units. 14 packs, 12 troops, 1 crew and 1 ship. Over the last year or so our roundtables have transformed from basically a district events planning session to something that is very close to what is laid out in the roundtable planning guides. We still do a bit of event planning, but we are putting on a true roundtable program. I have a great group of Roundtable Commissioners and Assistant Roundtable Commissioners, who have embraced the changes and are putting on a great program. And we have had the support of our District Commissioner as we made these changes.

The problem is we have not seen any real increases in attendance, and it is still mostly the same faces every month.

Here is our breakdown the attendance of our units

13 attend essentially every month

4 attend most months

5 attend occasionally

6 never attend

If you look at the percentage of units that are attend, I think we are doing better than most.

While most of our units are represented, our goal has been to double the attendance on the Cub Scout side. We typically only have 5 or 6 den leaders in attendance. We currently have one ARTC for Webelos den leaders and one for all other den leaders, while the RTC handles Cubmasters.

On the Boy Scout side it is mostly Scoutmasters, with the same handful of assistants.

We came up with an attendance promotion plan this past summer that included, a new district Facebook page(with the main goal of promoting roundtable), emails send out the week before roundtable, calls to the Cubmasters and Scoutmasters to encourage them to invite other leaders, and doing the same at roundtables. We have had door prizes, preopening games and presentations. We have cut the announcements way down, reeled in a few of the ones who would talk for 10 minutes or more.

On the Cub side, they still take about 10-15 minutes to plan our districts monthly event. On the Boy Scout side, the month before a Camporee we will take 10-15 minutes to discuss it, and then move on to the rest of the roundtable program.

One of the ARTC was promoting roundtable at her home pack, and then Cubmaster told everyone that they did not need to go because she was going. If all we were doing was program planning that would be fine, but we are giving hands on skills and program ideas that can be taken back to the Packs and Troops. This is the mentality we are trying to overcome.

We are currently running an online survey to see what the unit leaders think about what we are doing, and what they think would increase attendance.

So far I have had some great suggestions:

• Make roundtable the place to be - Have several different district functions happening on the same night, Eagle Project approvals, Eagle Boards, OA chapter meeting, training such as IOLS and BALOO over several month
  
• Contacting den leaders directly
  
• Encourage car pooling
  
• Recording the roundtable and posting to youtube
  
• Broadcast roundtable over internet
  
• Troop night - great recent topic on this site about this topic
  
• Have UCs pitch attendance during visits
  
• Have the roundtable staff make some unit visits to pitch it
  
• Bring a buddy promotion
  

Thanks for any input you guys may have on how we can improve our attendance!

Just to add, from what I have seen there is no "scouting" in it other than the name.

The way this is laid out, this is a traditional program(not Learning for Life, but that is where I see it belonging) in a new coed unit called a Lab, for 3rd-12th grade. They currently have a DE assigned from the council and a small national staff dedicated to the program. From my engineering background I really like the program, but from my scouting background, they should not be calling it "scouts"

This is a nationally approved pilot program, and may be expanded nationally by a vote next May.

Here is an article on the STEM Scout pilot program the Great Smoky Mountain Council is running. This is a coed, 3rd-12th grade program, that focuses on Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/five-at-four/2014/09/17/stem-scouts-clayton-bradley-academy/15766027/

The programs website.

http://stemscouts.org/