CHLees3rd

Moose,

I wonder what the comments would have been like if the three Scouters in your original post were not related and were just three independent adults? Wonder if the term "helicopter parent" would have come up or even opinions about what the ticket should have been. Moving on...

From what I can tell, you did not get involved until you discovered that your husband was sabotaging your sons Wood Badge ticket. You said something to both your husband and your son, but neither has listened to you. Your husband has his own agenda and has worked the situation in such a way that he is getting his way. Your son is letting your husband bully him into doing more work than what his ticket states. Do I have it correctly? If so, then I think you are correct to back your son not only because he is your son, but also, more importantly, because your sons ticket is solely his business and not his fathers or anyone else for that matter. Furthermore, your husband is being or was a bully to your son and he should be ashamed of himself as Scouting does not allow such behavior.

I feel it is OK for him to have an agenda as virtually everyone has one, but the way he went about getting things done is just unacceptable. A better tactic for him would have been to approach your son as another equal Scouter and asked something to the affect of, Son, I know your ticket is to clean and inventory the shed. Would you mind helping us inventorying the trailers contents when you are done so that we can get an accurate list of what the troop owns? Considering that your husband is also Wood Badge trained, if I remember correctly from some of your other posts, he should have known better. Plus, this way would have killed two birds with one stone. Doing it this way would allow him to acknowledge your sons ticket as written and, since your son seems to be the type that does what your husband wants, get the trailer inventoried too. One always gets more bees with honey than one gets with vinegar.

I find it so ironic that your husband acted like such a hard ass with your son about one ticket item, as if his opinion really mattered, yet he let the Troop Quartermaster slide for six months only to support the Scout by saying he did an excellent job. Your husband is all messed up and his credibility is going down the drain. If I met him face to face, Id ask him if he would sign off on the Quartermasters Eagle project if the Scout didnt do it? Will he allow other Scouts to slide by? He set a precedent if you ask me.

Also, would your husband have bullied another ASM if he thought the ASMs ticket was half assed? Or would he have tried to cajole the ASM into also including the trailer? Is your husband a bully with everyone, or is your son the only target? I'm just curious if this is his regular modus operandi.

Stick to your guns and good luck,

Chazz Lees

Brotherhood's comment got me thinking about skill awards differently. I'm still pro-skill awards, but why did they go away? Did many Scouts and Scouters not like them? Are there any of them here who would not mind commenting? I know there has been research done that showed Scouts who did not make First Class within a year generally dropped out of Scouting. Were skill awards a major obstacle for them to make First Class? Since most of the skill award requirements are still in the current ranks, were the skill awards themselves causing Scouts anxiety and impeding their advancement? I'm just curious because I always viewed skill awards as a stepping stone to merit badges. I doubt they will ever return considering the new uniforms, but one never truly knows.

Chazz Lees

Brotherhood's comment got me thinking about skill awards differently. I'm still pro-skill awards, but why did they go away? Did many Scouts and Scouters not like them? Are there any of them here who would not mind commenting? I know there has been research done that showed Scouts who did not make First Class within a year generally dropped out of Scouting. Were skill awards a major obstacle for them to make First Class? Since most of the skill award requirements are still in the current ranks, were the skill awards themselves causing Scouts anxiety and impeding their advancement? Just curious.

Chazz Lees

NJCubScouter,

I'm just curious. Since you were a Scout when the requirements were pre-skill awards like there are today, was the focus on getting as many requirements signed off as soon as you possibly could regardless of knowledge acquired and retained, or was it that Scouts learned the skill, were tested without aid, and were signed off as completed? I ask because what I see today is Scouts being shown how to complete a requirement and being tested (sometimes with aid and prompts) in the minutes immediately thereafter. I wouldn't say it was a problem except that the same Scouts usually can not recall just hours later what they did to get the requirement signed off. I know that when I and my Scout friends in my troop in the 80's did the skill awards, it was almost a completion to see who could master the skills first. Once you mastered the skills, you could get the requirements signed off and award the skill award. And months to years later, we still knew the skill.

Chazz Lees

I remember them well and earned all twelve. Sometimes wish they were still around because they marked milestones on a Scout's way to the his rank. Earning one made you feel like you accomplished a goal and learned something pretty important. Never liked the way that the BSA discontinued them and sprinkled the requirements amongst the T-2-1 ranks. When I was a Scout and you did the Hiking Skill Award, you got a heavy dose of hiking and orienteering until you completed everything for the belt loop. I also remember my Scoutmaster or SPL looking around for Second Class Scouts to teach first aid to new Scouts. In their minds, if a Scout was Second Class, they knew the Scout knew first aid since the First Aid Skill Award was a Second Class requirement. Leaders can't do that too easily nowadays.

Chazz Lees

For most of my Scouting years, I summer camped at Camp Child in Manomet, MA. The camp is long gone now and I will forever hold a grudge against council for selling it. Troop leadership changed when I was a late teen and was more outgoing. Sandwiched in between my Child years was one summer at Sabattis Scout Reservation in the Adirondacks of NY; camp at the time belonged to Hiawatha Council. Did another summer at Camp Tamaracouta outside Montreal in Quebec, Canada. Did another summer at Henderson Scout Reservation near Cooperstown, NY. Did another summer at T.L. Storer Scout Camp in NH. Planning on hitting summer camp at Onteora Scout Reservation in the Catskills this July.

Chazz Lees

Eagle92,

I received from council a manila folder for each Scouter and inside was a certificate, a Scouter's Training Award medal in a case, a square knot patch, and a little BSA symbol pin for the knot or medal to indicate that the award was for Boy Scouting (as opposed to being earned in another division such as Venturing.) I was pleasantly surprised. I had an idea there would be a certificate, but I thought the troop would have to buy the medal and knot. Heck, when I was awarded the STA back in 1992, all I got was the medal in a case without a certificate. I even had to purchase my own knot! I guess times have changed in some ways for the better.

YiS,

Chazz Lees

DesertRat,

I am a big proponent of adult training and recognition as I feel it really helps the Scouts. Recently, I submitted progress records for a few Scouters, who completed the Scouters Training Award, without telling them. There are a bunch of ASM's and Committee Members that have done a ton for the troop; however, they rarely got any recognition other than a quick "Thank You" as a meeting. I decided to see if any were eligible for the Scouters Training Award. While many were close, four actually had completed it. I confirmed their progress with the Committee Chair who knew nothing about the award. He enthusiastically signed the records once I explained what there were. Submitted the applications to District and received the awards just in time for the troop's last Court of Honor where I made surprise presentation. The Scouters were just beaming with delight as I pinned on their medals. It was a good night. They hadn't asked for it; they didn't even know about it; they surely appreciated it. The parents in the audience took notice as they gathered around the ASM's after the meeting, and I know the Eagle son and the soon-to-be Eagle sons were very proud too. I can't wait for the next big troop ceremony as I learned another four Scouters unknowingly finishing their STA. Time for another surprise presentation.

YiS,

Chazz Lees

I agree that the 100% requirement does not state "for two years." Once you attain 100% trained for Committee Chair, Cubmaster, and all Den Leaders, you have completed the requirement. With that said, it is my opinion that it SHOULD NOT be too hard to keep that percentage up once attained especially with mandatory training coming. Once a Pack Trainer is aware of a position change, he/she can start bombarding the Scouter with information and dates about upcoming training.

I found a copy of the progress record that is similar to the other ones here at this link: http://www.oacbsa.org/training_files/knots_awards_files/PackTrainerAward.pdf

YiS,

Chazz Lees

Nick,

I remember moving from Scout to Scouter. I submitted my Eagle paperwork a week prior to my 18th birthday and had my Eagle BOR almost a month later. My best friend got had his Eagle four days later which was four days before his 18th birthday. We never wore our Eagle patches. We both just sewed on our Eagle and AOL knots. We also became just the second and third adults in the troop to wear any knots. The only other one was the old SM who was awarded the District Award of Merit many years earlier. The knots just were not that well known in my troop. Four years later I earned the Scouter's Training Award thereby adding a third knot. Flash forward to today, 28 years later, and I still only wear three knots. If I am awarded another knot, then I will wear it. If I never get another one, I am fine with it because it does not take away what I have done in Scouting or what services I can still provide others.

While I can understand being a tad bit envious of those Scouter with more knots than you wear, know that it can be a two-way street. I have met Scouters who wear many more knots than I do tell me that they wish they could also wear mine. For all their accomplishments in Scouting, they kick themselves for never earning Eagle. I am not saying you should be a braggart about your knots; I'm just saying be proud of the knots you wear. If you really feel a need to earn an award with a corresponding knot as an adult, take a look at the Scouter's Training Award. It takes some time and training, but the performance part is the best because it encompasses providing a good program for your Scouts. The form can be found at this link: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-55.pdf

YiS,

Chazz Lees

I recently went camping with my Daisy Girl Scout troop and used a box oven I made to cook the meatballs for our pasta dinner. The place we camped had a fire ring where I would going to get the charcoal ready; however, before the campout, a wind storm knocked a huge tree over right on top of the fire ring. The owner of the property would not allow anyone near the fire ring until the tree could be cleared. Since I did not have a fire ring, I bought a couple of 4 inch deep aluminum trays to use as a fire place. I set the trays on the ground (one inside of the other) after clearing the area and lit my charcoal in the chimney inside the tray. I had the box oven nearby on a bunch of level bricks. When it was time to cook, I took the charcoal and placed them in a small aluminum tray for the oven. I wrapped the garlic bread in foil and placed them in the trays of hot charcoal near the edges. Dinner was great.

Since I had kept the charcoal hot by putting a third tray over the coals during dinner, I decided to add wood and have the campfire in the tray. When the campfire was done, I just flooded the tray with water until the fire and all embers were out. The next day I drained the water, sealed up the wet coals and wood in the tray by folding/rolling sides together, and brought it home to dispose in the trash.

Chazz Lees

Girl Guides in the U.K. was started today back in 1910. The movement spread during the next two years to Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa, and the Americas. So Happy Centenary Celebration Day to all my fellow Scouters and Guiders!

Chazz Lees

As a SPL in the mid-80's, I ate with my staff. My troop had a staff patrol which consisted of the appointed positions (Quartermaster, Librarian, Scribe, Troop Historian, and Instructors) and was led by one of two ASPL's. The other ASPL was my program assistant. Also, the Leadership Corps usually ate with the staff as there were only a few of them. The adults ate by themselves as did the other patrols. When it was mealtime, we scattered to the winds if it was a patrol cooking outing.

Chazz Lees

@83_Eagle_T148

If you reread my post, you will see that I mentioned many awards and not just the ones for Den Leaders. I read a bunch of progress records the other day and just compiled groups with the same requirements. The Cub Scouter Award clearly states, "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." Since the Pack Trainer Award is anotheraward, a Pack Trainer must use different tenure years if he/she wishes to earn both the Pack Trainer Award and the Cub Scouter Award.

As for the second part of your scenario, I guess the answer depends on whether the Doctor of Commissioner Sciences knot is considered a training award. If it is considered a training award, then the time could not be used concurrently because the tenure restriction on the Progress Record for the Commissioner Key states, "Tenure for one award cannot be used for other training awards." I guess the same goes for the Distinguished Commissioner Service Award. Not sure if either one is considered a training award. My thoughts are that neither is a training award so the tenure can be concurrent.

Im not sure why the restrictions were added and the requirements were written as they were. In my opinion, if someone is willing to pay his/her money to register for multiple positions across divisions and do the work necessary to earn each award/key associated to said positions, then he/she should be able to get all award/key regardless of circumstances, especially if he/she is doing a top notched job in every position.

@Basementdweller

I think the training awards and keys are a way to show how much Scouters care and work so that the program presented is great for the Scouts. Many Scouters get trained but fail to use what they learned. The training awards and keys program is a great way to get Scouters trained and to have them do something with that training for a certain period of time to keep their Scouts interested. The awards have supplemental training involved like Roundtables and/or Universities of Scouting so that Scouters keep learning and taking ideas back to their units. The awards have activities included which people associate with good Scouting such as leading a service project or counseling Scouts for merit badges. Plus, people like to get recognized for their hard work, and they should get recognized especially if the unit's program is a rocking success! Hopefully all that the Scouters do for their awards becomes second nature to them and Scouting flourishes. So I think it is a big deal and I promote the awards as well.

Chazz Lees

I had a friend who used to staple his POR and rank badge on his shirt after his mother refused to sew his new patches.

Chazz Lees

I just checked the Skipper's Key and the Sea Scout Leader Training Award. Neither have restrictions on tenure. Also, The Skipper's Key does not state that tenure for the Sea Scouting Leader Training Award can be used for its tenure. It appears five years are needed for both awards. The same is true for the Varsity Leader Training Award and the Varsity Scout Coach's Key. As written the requirements of tenure are five years total in order to earn both.

Chazz Lees

Are you allowed to use the same tenure for more than one award/key? My answer is that it depends on the awards in question.

I just looked at the progress record sheets for the Den Leader Award, the Cub Scouter Award, the Cubmaster Award, the Tiger Cub Den Leader Award, the Webelos Den Leader Award, and the Venturing Leader Training Award. There is no need to interpret what the tenure requirement means. It is in plain English and states, "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." So if one of the awards in question is from this list, then you can not use the same tenure years for both.

Also, notice the word "key" is used in all the awards listed above which are mostly from the Cub Scout division. There are no keys earned/awarded in Cub Scouts. Keys are earned/awarded in Boy Scouts, Venturing, the Commissioner Services, and the District Committee. Therefore, a Cub Scouter can not use tenure time for the above listed awards and for awards/keys in other divisions. So WestCoastScouter's example of a Cub Scouter earning the Den Leader Award could not apply the same tenure time towards earning the District Committee Key.

Speaking of District Committee Key, it has a tenure requirement which states, "Tenure for one award cannot be used for other training awards." The same requirement is on the progress record for the awards/keys of the Unit Commissioner, District Commissioner/Asst. District Commissioner, Roundtable Staff, and Roundtable Commissioner. So if a Scouter is working towards one of these awards, then the years of tenure count only once.

The following awards/keys have no restriction on the tenure requirements as listed: Pack Trainer Award, Boy Scout Leader's Training Award, Scoutmaster's Key, and Advisor's Key. Hence, Scouters can pursue the Pack Trainer Award, the Advisor's Key, and either the Boy Scout Leader's Training Award or Scoutmaster's Key the same tenure years. The only added requirement amongst these awards is that the tenure of the Boy Scout Leader's Training Award can be used towards the tenure of the Scoutmaster's Key. The same is not true for the Advisor's Key.

So there you have it. No need to interpret the requirements or read in between the lines or adhere to the spirit of the law. As of right now, if you want to use your Scouting years towards the maximum amount of awards concurrently, you must register as a Pack Trainer, a Scoutmaster, and an Advisor. Good luck with that! Otherwise, it's one knot at a time.

Chazz Lees

I'll buy 5 too. Let me know where to send a check.