CHLees3rd

Base,

I totally agree with consistency which is why I mentioned it. To me a good District Training Chair will not approve any Pack Trainer to facilitate a course unless he/she has actually seen the Pack Trainer train as a member of the training staff. To give carte blanche to any old Pack Trainer would most likely be disastrous!

While I like the online courses for their consistency, I think they do not offer the intangibles that instructor-led training offers such as networking, groups discussions, and to a point, experience. Sure there are a ton of trainers out there who just love to hear themselves talk, but there are also a ton who actually have worthwhile things to say. Not all tangential extras are BS.

The job description of Pack Trainer on Scouting.org states that a Pack Trainer "should be trained at a district or council training development conference." On the same page one of the responsibilities states that a Pack Trainer conduct "other training as designated by the district and/or council." If a Pack Trainer is a trained as a trainer and approved to train by the District Training Chair, then there should be no reason for such a resource not to train Scouters. Due Diligence must be done.

Chazz Lees

I think the question of whether a Pack Trainer can conduct training depends on at least a few things: his/her experience as a trainer; the course he/she want to conduct; and possibly the approval of the District Training Chair. I say "possibly" for the last one because Den Chief training, in my opinion, could be facilitated by most competent Scouters. In fact, I believe the Den Chief training syllabus states that an ASM and/or ACM should facilitate it. I think most districts around the country conduct it because many troops and crews many not do it themselves every year. However, a troop and/or crew that has a really good working relationship with a pack probably could handle the training if it chose to do so. In such a case I would say that the ASM and PT facilitate the training together so that both Den Chiefs and Den Leaders understand the job.

With respect to position specific training, I see no problem with a Pack Trainer facilitating the courses for his/her unit as long as the District Training Chair approves. Seriously, what is the different if a Pack Trainer has people over his/her house a few hours over a few nights to do the training and someone just logging into MyScouting.org and completing the online courses in 90 minutes? I think a Pack Trainer who covers the material in the syllabus should be able to facilitate discussion amongst the attendees so that all have a better understanding of their jobs. Much better option that just the online course.

If the Pack Trainer has the support personnel and the resources to run BALOO and/or OWL training, go for it so long as the District Training Chair approves it. Heck, if the District Training Chair approves it, he/she may even send other unit leaders to participate!

This stuff is not rocket science, but we do want some consistency with the training; experienced trainer presenting the syllabus and not someone clueless about the courses or how to conduct training just doing so because of his/her new patch.

Of course, if a Pack Trainer wanted to conduct Wood Badge, NAYLE, or some other high end training, I'm pretty sure the District Training Chair would say no.

Chazz Lees

"Other than the religious knot, the ONLY other thing a scout may transfer from cub scouts to boy scouts is the Arrow of Light."

I do not believe that is entirely true. Even though the Religious Award knot and the Arrow of Light Award are the two most common badges that WEBELOS take with them to Boy Scouts, I do not know anyone who would tell a new Boy Scout that the knot representing the Honor Medal which he was awarded as a Bear Cub Scout for saving someone's life could not be worn on his Boy Scout uniform. Same goes for the knots representing the Heroism Medal, the Medal of Merit, and the James E. West Fellowship award. As far as I know, these awards stay with the Scout regardless of level. I know of no restrictions.

Chazz Lees

The POR patches drive me crazy! Boys leave the old ones on and take forever to put the new one on. Velcro might be OK if it is Khaki. I did that for my Webelos DL/ASM patches but it is not so great. The new "smokes" pocket is a great disincentive to getting the patches on. - Tampa Turtle

Uniform inspections as part of a patrol competition can work well with Scouts. Peer pressure in such occasions is a key factor. As a Troop Committee member, I ask Scouts about wearing incorrect patches during Boards of Review when discussing Scout Spirit. Some other may not think such things are important, but paying attention to details is a good leadership skill in my book. For all the Board knows, the Scout before us could one day be a civil engineer needing to determine if a bridge is safe or a scientist trying to develop a safe vaccine. Plant the seeds now.

However, I have had one offs here and there too. The excuse is usually "My mom (or wife as Scouters use this excuse as well) didn't have time to sew on the new one yet." I then retell the Scout or Scouter the following story:

When I was a Second Class Scout, I had three patches that I needed (wanted) my mother to sew onto my uniform: my new Second Class badge and a different temporary patch as well as a pie segment. I bugged her constantly to sew on the patches usually when she was in the middle of doing something that as the time I considered less important than my Scout uniform such as cooking dinner or washing clothes. She finally looked at me and said, "What was that I heard that older boy say after your meeting the other day when I picked you up? Oh yeah, never do for a Scout what he can do for himself!" She then threw my uniform shirt at me and said, "I'm done! You can sew your own patches on your shirt from now on!" I started to whine that I didn't know how to sew. Her reply over her shoulder as she walked out of the room was "Figure it out; it's not brain surgery."

Well I figured it out and thirty years later I still sew on my own patches. I pass on my mother's tough love lesson differently nowadays in that I will show Scouts and Scouters how to sew a basic stitch that they can use to put the correct patches on their uniforms. I then follow up with the Scouts or Scouters. The usual time frame is about two weeks because the first week excuses change 99% of the time to "I didn't have any time." I usually then discuss with the Scout or Scouter about how much time it takes to sew on a patch and they usually arrive as the same conclusion that I have; the reason is not lack of time but generally lack of motivation.

The other excuse I sometimes get is that the "mother (or wife) doesn't want him to sew because he will mess it up!" I will always call a Scout or Scouter on this one. For Scouts, I'd said, "Scouts on the trail to Eagle have to do some pretty challenging things and you are telling me that your mom does not have enough confidence in you to hold or pin a patch in place so that you can use a threaded needle to go down, over, up, down, over, up (I do the sewing motion with my hands) until done?" I suggest the Scout talk with his mom or dad or somebody else about showing me how to sew on the patch.

Another reply I use if I know the Scout has Totin Chip is to ask, "So let me get this right. You know how to safely use a knife, an axe, and a saw; however, you can't use a needle. Do I have that correct?" The Scout usually grins and gets it done.

As for Scouters who try the "wife won't let me sew" excuse, I tell them flat out they are just plain lazy! I tell them, "Look, if my wife said that to me, I would take it as a challenge to my manhood that I could not handle such a simple task and I would prove her wrong." I also add in that a good leader sets the good example. If the Scouter is going to be lazy about something, then he/she can not get on the Scouts for the same thing.

That's what has worked for me. Maybe something like this can help you.

Good luck,

Chazz Lees

I am now irked as I find out the Tickets that got approved. Date night with the wife???? lose 10 pounds???? increase popcorn sales???? Attend roundtable???? Create annual troop calendar???? take the boys camping???? Go camping with the girl scouts?????? Attend a LNT workshop???? Help at district camporee???? - BasementDweller

Base, why do these ticket items irk you so much? Is it because they sound too easy to you? Without knowing what the Scouter's vision is, it is not really fair to judge his/her ticket items or compare them to your own items.

I know of a Scouter who had an item similar to the "date night with the wife." Without knowing the Scouter's vision, one might wonder why the heck this item was included. Well this Scouter's marriage was on the fence due to "too much Scouting" and he recognized it. His vision was to be more effective in his Scouting position (District Executive) and he knew he had to fix his marriage in order to be successful. I know that he and his Troop Guide discussed the item for a long time.

As for the other items you listed, I as a Troop Guide would approve them so long as they were in line with the Scouter's vision and challenging for the Scouter while also being attainable. Go camping with Girl Scouts could be a tactic to recruit for a Venturing Crew. Losing ten pounds for an extremely obese Scouter whose vision is to have a healthier troop is not out of line. Increase popcorn sales might be a great ticket for a Scouter whose troop wants to do take more trips but is not so good at raising funds. Attend roundtable and get others to attend roundtable might be a way for a Scouters to transition an adult-run troop into a youth-led troop. Create an annual troop calendar might be what a troop that rarely budgets and/or plans proper activities needs for a Scouter to turn around a troop. Take the boys camping may sound foolish to a Scouter whose Scouts go monthly, but there are troops that rarely camp, as crazy as it sounds. Attend a LNT workshop might be the first step for a Scouter to turn around a troop that has only trailer camped for the past thirty years. Helping at the district camporee might be a way for a Unit Commissioner to get his/her units to participate. Items need to be related to the vision.

Of course, if a Pack Committee Member had a vision to increase the number of volunteers in the pack and one of the items was "attend the national jamboree," then I would question the relevance it.

YiS,

Chazz Lees

Make a campfire blanket by sewing the patches on a wool blanket which you can wrap around yourself at campfire during cool or cold nights. I started one because a few of my Scoutmasters I had as a Scout had them. They are great conversation pieces and Scouts get to see your Scouting history.

YiS,

Chazz Lees

Hey Eagle92,

I think there are only two types of Scouters with regards to knots. Those who wear them and those who do not. I don't consider the Sea Scout limit of six to be its own type because I have seen many Sea Scouters in uniform that count the knots they wear like this: one, two, three, four, five, six, six, six, six, six, six, six.....yep, only six knots! LOL

Chazz

Troop Committee Members need the following courses to be considered trained: This is Scouting; Fast Start: Boy Scouting; Troop Committee Challenge; and Youth Protection. All the courses are available online.

Chazz Lees

I once purchased a Scout shirt on eBay and the previous owner had glued on the patches. I removed the patches and brought the shirt to my dry cleaner. Whatever solvent they used removed the glue residue and the shirt looked great. I used needle and thread to apply my patches.

So if you are planning on donating the old shirt for another Scouts to use, then remove your son's badges/patches and have the shirt cleaned at a dry cleaner.

Chazz Lees

My take is that you need to emphasize different aspects of the program at different times of the pack meeting. First, present the Wolf Badge to the Cub Scouts who earned it just like you will present the Tiger Badge to those Tiger Cub Scouts who earned it and so on for Bears and Webelos. "You do the work and you get the pay!" This allows you to keep the integrity of the Badges which is good training for those who may not make Eagle by 18 when in Boy Scouts.

Second, have each den move up to the next level together (i.e. have the whole Wolf den move up to the Bear den together.) This allows the dens, which completed the year together, to move up together helping forge/reinforce unit cohesion and den bonds. Go ahead and call all the names of the Cub Scouts moving up. The "moving up" part is also an achievement.

If your pack meeting is not set up this way, then I suggest changing the format to allow individual recognitions and separate den achievements.

Good luck,

Chazz Lees

I would say that Trainer's EDGE is good for as long as you can remember what you learned. However, if you need it to count as a prerequisites for Wood Badge or NYLT, then you need to have taken or retaken it within the past three years. I took it a few months ago to see how it was different from TDC and do not plan on retaking it unless either I accept an invitation to staff Wood Badge or NYLT or technology changes so much that I want to see how it has been incorporated into the course.

Chazz Lees

Moosetracker,

Try sending your question to JTE@Scouting.org. It was mentioned at the end of the webinars that the email address was set up for such questions and would be monitored daily so that Scouters submitting questions would not have to wait days on end for an answer.

Good luck,

Chazz Lees

I just did a bunch of youth and adult transfers last week including a new ASM who just turned 18. The fee was $1 for each as they had already paid their membership fee of $15 for the current year during the last rechartering period. I also submitted an adult application for a new parent who wanted to join and paid a reduced rate on the yearly membership fee ($2.50) which was based on how much time is left on the current charter. I know background checks will be run on both as they are new adult applications, but no one mentioned having to pay full price to cover it. I guess that money comes out of the pot at rechartering time.

Chazz Lees

One night I had trouble with a course using Internet Explorer 7. I downloaded and installed Firefox which I have used ever since. Works like a charm.

Chazz Lees

Vigil,

The insignia guide states that one world or one national jamboree patch may be worn over the right pocket. Notice that it does not state one world or one BSA national jamboree patch. So if the Canadian Jamboree you attended was Canada's national jamboree, then go ahead and wear it. The BSA has a ton of smart people who know how to write in English to express what they mean. If the BSA decides in the future to add "BSA" before "national jamboree," then you'll have to take it off to have a correct uniform.

Chazz Lees

HICO_Eagle,

Based on your post and a few assumptions on my part, I'm going to guess you made Eagle in the 80's like I did and have been in Scouting ever since then. If I am correct, then I wonder why you would want to take the old Wood Badge course compared to the new one. I took the old course in 1992 and found that the outdoor training parts were, at least for me, to be a waste of my time. While I did add to my knowledge the management lessons it taught, I found myself bored most of the time having to sit through classes like Totin'Chip and fire building. As for meeting new people in the council, forget about it. Other than my patrol members (which I will add changed between the first and second weekends, ) my patrol guide, and a few staffers, I have no idea who the Scouters were in the other patrols. I knew the SPL because he was in my troop and the Course Advisor whom I had previously met at summer camp; however, I never even spoke with the Scoutmaster or any in his circle. In fact, I got the sense that such discussions were not wanted on their part. Is this really the type of course you would take in a heartbeat? I sure as heck don't want anymore courses like that. I sum up my first Wood Badge experience like this: I did my three weekends and I learned a few things.

In my opinion, the old course doesn't hold a candle to the new course which I took in 2008. The outdoor skills part was discarded as the thinking was that Scouters at this level most likely already have the training. Are there participants who could use the outdoor skills training? Yes, but that is not the focus of the course. Is there a lot of management theory? Yes, just like in the old course. The difference is that the new course flows much better than the old course did. Discussions and interactions between patrols and staffers is encouraged. The new course gets people excited about Scouting where as the old one did not. I remember very few Scouters who were fired up and motivated after completing the practical part of old Wood Badge course. After the new course's practical part, everyone appeared fired up.

Now I know that mileage varies from person to person. Some here on the list have had horrible Wood Badge experiences with the new course while others can not stop praising it. When people ask me about the course, I tell them what I experienced and I use the analogy of the gas chamber training I did at Marine Recruit Training: you hear stories about it and you think you know what is going to happen, but the truth is you don't really know until you do it. If you think the new course will help you, then take it. If you think it will not help you, then do not take it. But don't be for or against it based on other's war stories.

Chazz Lees

Until OldSchool Scout replies about the how the Den Leader refused, we do not know if someone from the pack leadership told him that the totem and beads needed to be use and he defiantly said, "I refuse to use them" as opposed to a group a Den Leaders talking about their pet peeves as leaders with one says she hates snack time and he commenting, "the totems are a waste of time and I just refuse to deal with them." "I refuse to use them" in the first part shows disobedience while the second part could been a bragging. Disobedience to the pack leadership would be grounds for the pack to say "Thank you but your services are no longer needed" while the latter would be the time to counsel the Den Leader and impression upon him why the totem and beads are important parts of the Cub Scout program.

Chazz Lees

Clem,

The original post never mentioned anyone speaking to the Den Leader. All that was noted was that the Den Leader does not use the totem and beads. This information could have been shared as a comment at meeting or just offhandedly in a conversation.

OldSchool - was the Den Leader counseled by the pack leadership about the how to present the Cub Scout program?

Chazz Lees

"If that's the only thing he's doing wrong, then I would do nothing."

I disagree. Things like this need to be addressed immediately because they tend to snowball into bigger issues if nothing is done. It has been my experience that when Scouters do not follow the program due to their own issues, it is very rare that they do everything else properly but just the one thing. Chances are they take liberties whenever they feel that they know what is best. We know the current issue is that the Den Leader is against the totem and beads. If nothing is done to change this practice, the Den Leader may decide against pins and only do belt loops. Does the pack approach then or it's not too big of a deal? What if the Den Leader decides that certain badge requirements are not really needed in today's world and just signs the off? Cubs are awarded badges they did not earn. Does the pack approach then or it's just not too big of a deal? Parents and Cubs from other dens may not like the practices of this particular Den Leader and may complain about unfair treatment and favoritism. Does the pack approach then? What if Cubs start to leave the pack? Does the pack say something then? When does it stop? Most of us would not allow our Scouts to make such decisions about their positions and jobs, so why should we allow this adult?

Chazz Lees

ghermanno,

Did you ever think that the Scouters to whom you used to go for answers probably had years and years of Scouting experience and not just Wood Badge beads. I know when I was a young Scouter, the experienced Scouters I went to for answers usually had beads. However, I think it is a mistake to equate a Scouter's Wood Badge beads with his or her experience and knowledge. Wood Badge does not make or certify someone as "All Knowing in Scouting" and it never did. Whether it was the old course which I took in 1992 or the new course I took in 2008, Wood Badge just gives Scouter tools which he or she hopefully will use to be a better leader. Nothing more.

Nowadays, when I see Scouters with beads, I tend to see someone who in my mind should be capable to lead because he or she has the tools and know-how. Will the beaded-Scouter use the tools? Maybe. Will he or she have all the answers to questions on Scouting? Maybe. Usually when I need answers, I look for Scouters who has been around certain blocks longer than I have and not just for bead wearers. So, would I go to that first year Tiger Cub Den Leader you mentioned for information? The answer would depend on what information I was needed.

Chazz Lees

When I was a Cub Scout in the late 70's/early 80's, packs used the totem and beads and we Cubs loved them. We were awarded our Bobcat, Wolf, Bear at the next pack meeting once all requirements were met. The beads were the way we monitored how far ahead or behind you were with your friends. Plus, back then you could start working on your Bear as soon as you made Wolf, so wearing the red beads for completing Bear achievements made you stand out in the dens.

Nowadays, I see packs that wait until the Blue & Gold celebration to award all badges so I guess that the beads are not as popular as all Cubs are basically at the same point. Is it right? I do not think so. The beads are part of the program and are used to should how far along a Cub is towards his next badge and badges should be awarded once a Cub has earned his four beads. Since not all Cubs advance at the same pace as some miss meetings and/or activities, those Cubs who do the work should be getting the recognition immediately.

As far as the Den Leader not using them because the Cubs "already receive enough awards" is just wrong in my book. Seriously, who is he or she to say what is enough? Maybe there are a few Cubs who want them. And as for it being "a pain for leaders to keep track of them and hand the out," I really can't see why. What exactly is the problem? My Den Mother (that's what they were back then) use the the Advancement Chart and we as a den colored in out paw prints of our completed achievements. When we colored in three paw prints, we got a bead and we added it to the thong by untying and tying it. When we checked off ten arrowheads, we got them at the next pack meeting.

My mother solved the problem of taking the totem off of my shirt before washing it by making me do it. I clearly remember her telling me that she did care if the hanging thingy was on my pocket or not, my shirt was going in the wash. So as a young Cub, I took my totem off before putting my uniform in the wash. Never do for a Scout what he can do for himself!

Chazz Lees

I agree with everyone's advice. Let the Committee Member go on the wild goose chase to prove his/her point. Until he/she can "enlighten" everyone with facts in writing, say that the way things run now are just fine. The Scoutmaster is not required to be on all outings.

Chazz Lees

Twoscouts,

To me it sounds like the Scoutmaster and the assistants are not developing youth leaders so much as just trying to control their destinies. It's all about them having control and power over the Scouts. What does the committee and/or the COR think about the way the Scoutmaster and the assistants handle the POR's? Have they done anything to try and stop the practice?

Chazz

I agree that you should sue him. A Scout is Find and a Scout is Trustworthy; however, a Scout is not a Fool. When he needed assistance, you helped him out when asked. He said he would pay you back and he hasn't yet. You reminded him at the first meeting and the ran away. You saw him at the gas station and he ran away again. It would be one thing if he approached you and offered a payment plan, but he hasn't even done that. He is just hoping it all goes away. Let him know it hasn't gone away and that he will have to answer for his actions. Let him try to run away from the court.

Good luck,

Chazz Lees

Horizon,

This situation does not sound like the troop can pick and choose the package (i.e. accept the Scout but not the parents.) It sounds like if the troop accepts one, it gets them all! Remember it was stated that the parent that quit the Troop Committee stalked the parking lot spewing anger. Who really wants to deal with that again? I sure as heck would not.

MikeF, I suggest that you tell the parents and Scout that it was not a good fit the first time he was with the troop and you see nothing that would indicate now is any different. In my opinion, it will be easier to deal with any fallout from this approach than it will be dealing with the family in the troop again.

Good luck,

Chazz Lees