Cheerful Eagle

Hi KISMIF,

I have to say that if you, the den leader, can't think of who the committe chair is fo your pack, you don't HAVE a pack comittee. At the very least, even if you have a very small pack, there ought to be someone at the monthly leader's meeting who is NOT a den leader or Cubmaster, who has taken responsibility for keeping track of all the administrative details of the pack. If the cubmaster is expected to do that, he is essentally being required to wear two hats.

This year we too had a new CM take over from a fellow who had been leading the pack for 4 years -- well past the collective memory of the current leadership. The previous guy was VERY active in most aspects of the Pack, which was great, BUT created some friction when the Current CM was not as active. He is fulfilling his role as CM, just not taking on all the ADDITIONAL responsibilities his predecessor had. It took some of us outsiders (I moved to the Pack from a different state last year) to remind the "oldtimers" of the LIMIT on the responsibilities of the CM.

I really encourage you to work out some way to do some "peacemaking" with your current CM.

You're right, you do want to avoid driving this fellow and his son away from scouting. I'll bet previous cubmaster made it look so easy, he didnt really realize what he was getting into. If I were him, I'd be feeling pretty down by now and ready to throw in the towel. Late winter is always hard, because you are never quite able to fully realize the dreams you had at the year's beginning (if you are a dreamer like me). Perhaps he's focuing on the announcments because the admin is all he has time to do.

But what ever happened to the dens providing skits, songs, den displays etc. to the Pack meeting? Do any of the den leaders have ANY sence of ownership of the pack meeting?

Remind the den leaders that no one enjoys failing and we should avoid shooting our wounded. Encourage them to look at how they can be part of a win-win solution for the whole pack.

At the very least, don't let anyone guilt you into being a CM. And if you do consider it, make a functioning, trained Committee Chair a requirement for your committment! Do not even consider wearing more than one hat. That is a clear recipe for burn-out.

This month preparing for the B&G at a den meeting, we were snacking on fortune cookies with our Wolf cubs (theme is Chinese New Year). This is the fortune I picked at random, no joke.

"You deserve respect and will eventually get it."

I taped it at eye level to my kitchen cabinet. It makes me grin everytime I see it.

Ya, I'm still in the trenches with my youngest, but you know, now that my daughter is a Junior, I kinda view Briwnies the same way. It's hard to go back to herding butterflies once you've started to work with kids who are ready to start leading themselves.

But little sibs want to play, too. And it really does help indoctrinate youngsters to the culure of scouting.

Scoutmasters, don't forget, statistically over 50% of your incoming scouts were recruited as cub scouts!

Thankfully, our CO supports a Venturing Crew as well as a BS Troop and CS Pack. In fact, the Crew (definitly co-ed here) went alongside the Troop on their Boundrywaters trip last summer.

Since I was pondering and doing my scouting paperwork and inspirational reading this morning (grin) I thought I'd post here and see what surfaced.

So, ya, an important step I need to make is to start chatting with the members and leaders of the Venturing crew.

Ho boy, am I glad there's a crew to join. I've started this GS troop from scratch, I don't know if I have the umph to start another scout unit!

It seems to me they met after BP married, and a couple of years after Low's husband had died. She was a young wealthy american widow looking for something meaningful to do with her life.

If you look at the early days of Girl Scouting, it started out WAY more like the origional boy scout program. At least as far as it could be given the social restrictions of the times. Perhaps that's part of the problem of the GS lack of program continuity -- responsibilities, roles and activities open to women today are so different than what the founder could even dream. It's harder to look back and gain direct inspiriation from Juliette Gorden-Low as to how to work with the program.

But I digress from the origional thread!

I wonder though about the Jedi comment. BP and Seaton obviously borrowed from the romantic material that was contemporary to their time and appealed to boys. Is there any unintended consequence that would come from borrowing from OUR contemporary romances (ie Star Wars)? Is the spirit of the game more important or the framework of the game? Remember we are about a game with a purpose. BP could have chosen to emphasize medival romantic scripts (and he did involve a lot of that in the first program publications too), but he chose something that appealed to the popular culture of that time.

A couple of thoughts:

First off, Akela is the name of the wolf pack leader from R. Kipling's "Jungle Book", thus the use of his name as the cub's authority figure. The role and name of Baloo is also borrowed from that book.

The benefit I see from the use of Native American imagery in the AoL ceremony is the way it lifts the event out of the ordinary and mundane. I'm sure if you ask any of the boys, they can tell you that it's all make-believe. But in the moment, they can imagine themselves to be the young hero, being measured and deemed worthy to contimue his quest. And even better, grown-ups who are important to him are participating in the make-believe.

As some have already pointed out, there are other traditions and myths that we can pull from to produce this kind of event. But, IMHO, we should be careful to use only those that strongly appeal to the boy's romantic imagination. Because of our popular culture, Native American references appeals strongly to most boys. If you wanted to use Revolutionary War heros (and appealing to military heros has its own pitfalls), I think you'd want to be careful to build an appreciation of that into the program throughout the year. Otherwise, the boys just wouldn't have the internal script to be a part of the make-believe.

As some of my Girl Scouts are leaving 5th grade (turning 11) I am starting to consider how to help them be prepared to enter a Venturing crew when they are 14.

I'm used to thinking about moving Webelos to First Class, but there are several differences here with the girls. The difference that FEELS the biggest is that I don't have an established troop to hand them off to (grin). They will continue to be part of a mixed age troop (4rth grade and up, though we have taken in girls in the second semester of 3rd grade). The older girls are the first in our troop to turn 11.

We are also a "young troop" compared with the traditions usually accompanying a BSA troop. Most of what we do, well, we've never done it before.

To complicate matters, GSUSA is changing its programing AGAIN. So while I am taking the level specific training for Cadettes (grades 6&7), the new materials aren't avaliable yet.

I'm about ready to chuck most of the GS guidelines. Matriarchies tend to be so micromanaging they make my head spin. But that's another thread.

I'd appreciate advice from Venturing advisors out there. Would it be helpful for me to sit through a BSA class on venturing? Any other advice?

Thanks!

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Thanks for the encouragement everyone!

Looks like next year we will be running a split troop too. We will have 4rth, 5th and 6th graders. I think the older girls will be finished with their bronze project and badge requirements by the end of this school year.

So I'm thinking that they (the scouts entering 6th grade, who have finished Bronze) should probably bridge to cadettes shortly after being awarded the Bronze. BTW to those not familiar to GS, scouts move up generally because of ageing out, not because they have earned a rank.

That leads me to a question of patrol structure, to which I know there's no pat answer, but I like noodeling about it anyway: Do I have the older girls lead the younger girls, or have a Junior patrol and a Caddette Patrol? And if , do I have a seperate meeting for the patrol leaders in either case (I'm sure the answer is yes). One thing I'm beginning to notice are some grumbelings from the younger scouts that the older girls are "bossy" and exclusive. Of course the complainer isn't the picture of gentle inclusion either; a bit of the pot calling the kettle black...

Oh yeah, include the scouts. Hee hee. Sometimes I get so carried away with dreaming I forget to include in the scouts. (Baaaaad scout leader! 50 laps around the coffee pot!)

I did follow some of the links yesterday and foound some interesting sites:

http://www.frankhopkins.com/horsesense1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang_%28horse%29

http://netnebraska.org/extras/wildhorses/

Keep me honest about involving the girls in devloping THEIR badge.

We enjoyed ourselves so much at the Luv Shack ranch last Saturday (http://www.luvshackranchrescue.com/mustang.html). It was our orientation session, and the ranch manager spent 5 HOURS with us!! The girls not only leaned where the muck rakes and dumpster were, they also learned how to put a halter on a horse and groom a horse BY DOING IT themselves on a horse they chose! The manager wants to help the girls earn both horse badges while they are volunteering there! WOW! I hope our troop will develope a lasting relationship with this organization.

Hey, looks like the thread has wandered into a debate about the nature/history of venturing crews. (*sigh and roll of the eyes*) sometimes you guys really do not stay on topic.

Anyway, MomisBoyScout, I wanted to encourage you again and invite you to help me keep the "girl Scouting" forum active. Lets start sharing there and network with other scouters that have a love for the young girls,and work with them, but feel more comfortable with the BSA culture!

I think there are a lot of people in our situation. We need to network more strongly.

First, the background...

I am a Cubscout leader, been to Philmont, been to Woodbadge (2x, second as TG)... my first scouting loyalty is to BP.

I am also mom to a wonderful 11 year old girl, who wishes she could do all the cool things her brothers do. (And yes, we have the Venturing crew membership form filed at home and ready to be signed on her 14th birthday).

I have done Daisies, Brownies and now Juniors with her as a leader -- done the training too. Last year we moved to a new state and started a troop from scratch (there were no GS troops at her school). We have a SMALL troop (8 scouts). The GS program looks more like the BS program than the Cub program in that there are dozens of badges one can work on, and little overall yearly program goal (aside from the Bronze, Silver and Gold awards that are roughly analgous to Star, Life, and Eagle ranks).

NOW the question: When you have little direction from the program, how do you start to build a calander for your troop meetings and outings? Especially given you are (basically) starting with a small group of 11 year olds?

I'd love to hear stories from SM's who have started small with a group of inexperienced youngsters!

The good news is that we have a good relationship with my Cub Pack, and are planning on partnering with them for family camp and community service like scouting for food.

(This message has been edited by cheerful Eagle)(This message has been edited by cheerful Eagle)

Last fall, my DH served as MBC on Citizenship in the Community for my son's troop . We hosted a movie night and showed "12 Angry Men", for a small group of scouts. Popcorn etc. It was a great night, and the conversation afterwards was very thoughtful.

Hi all!

My Junior troop is volunteering at a Horse rescue ranch in Northern Phoenix this spring as part of our Bronze Award service project. I'd like to develope a badge (scouters - think webelos-level type requirements) that empasizes the part of the mustang in the history of the southwest.

Any ideas? links? resoueces?

Thanks

Hi Mom,

Gee, you and I are totally in the same boat. What to do is really a matter of just how crazy are you?

I am certifiable. I started a GSUSA troop last year. It only took 3 months to get the ducks in a row as far as the council is concerened. From this I learned that most GS councils are ridiculusly understaffed. If you need something, or start outside the usual box (like starting a troop in February instead of August) then you must play the part of a squeeky wheel. Be very assertive and persistant, but cheerful. Things were very tough, as I had no back-up adults, no funds and no chartered organization (not required in GS). This year they are better, as I have linked up with a like-minded leader who is tied into a local church, so now we have meeting space. And as we are (dare I admit it here *wince*) selling cookies, we should have some funds to do some camping etc this coming year.

If you are crazy enough to jump into Girl Scouting ( as I did) here's a few pitfalls to remember:

#1 Troops stand alone. The Leader stands alone. At least that is the standard set up. There is NO pack committe (which I LONG for as a GS leader), and the troop is usually ONE PROGRAM level. You are required to have 2 registered adults, but no more. Moreover, very few GS leaders are really familiar with BSA standards.

So, with regards to structure, my advice is,

1. find a like-minded friend to co-lead with. It's just too much pressure for one person. 2. And then recruit parents like mad. Make your own "troop committee" as you can. GS people will stress that the girls should be functioning like a Troop Committee, but untill they are about 11/12 they have no real ability to do that. (IMHO)

3. Consider having a multi-level troop (not against the rules, but very unusual) and recruit parents to be "patrol leaders". Voila, you have a pack type structure.

In my experience, (and as you have found too, I think) the idea of starting a troop is just too overwhelming for most people. But I bet helping a partol within a troop would be a lot less intimidating. I'll be finding out this year, since some of my girls are aging out of juniors, but there are younger siblings and their friends just starting juniors who are joining this spring.

ANOTHER pitfall is lack of structure in the program. Daisies (kindergarden) have 8 petals to earn, but Brownies and on up have about a gazillion try-its or badges to earn. Juniors on up can earn the Bronze (as a junior), Silver (as a cadette) and Gold (as a senior) Awards. These are like ranks in BS, they include required badges as well as service projects.

As a leader, you need to look at the program books and decide what you are going to major in. I am trying to keep a balance baised on what I see in the Webelos program. Of coures, the girls are beginning to weigh in on what they want to do. I think many leaders just end up filling their calander with council sponcered activities as well as fun outings (always spending cookie funds on amusment park trips)and don't have an overall vision. If you are the on-point leader, your primary job will be to develope and execute your vision.

My daughter wishes she could be a boy scout too. Her older brother is almst at Star, and her younger brother is a wolf cub. I used to be an eagle (WE3-55-04). I love scouting, but sometimes its hard not to let the GSUSA take the joy out of it.

I encourage you, though, if you have the vision consider taking it on. Working within the GSUSA umbrella does give some benefits, (most notably insurance) and then your daughter can have a "real"uniform too and work on earning her own highest award in scouting (the Gold award).

Sarah and I are both looking forward to her 14th birthday when she can join the venturing crew associated with her brothers troop. Until then we will doing our best to honor BP and Juliette Low's vision of scouting.

Ok, everyone, I know it's a strange name for a holiday. But really, we are celebrating the birthdays of BP and his wife Olave. It's a scouting holiday for boys and girls around the world.

Maybe this is the time to show a bit of scouting spirit in support of our daughters. Tell them how the girls showed up all unexpected at the first Jamboree. Encourage them to earn their gold award. Recognize the young women in your venturing crews for their achievements as Girl Scouts.

Yes, I know that "other organization" sometimes makes us feel less than welcome at the scouting table. But we are siblings. There probably isn't anything at all institutionally that can happen, but it's a good month to give goodwill. Creativity and maturity. Wouldn't a few new bridges be a good thing for our youth?

See, here's my "secret weapon": I'm a woman. Shhhhh don't tell the rest of the forum *evil grin*. just kidding

And I've got all my GSUSA training done for the Junior level , cept I need the camping training *sigh, under breath, a scout is cheerful, helpful, kind, considerate... I WILL have a good attitude*

And, really, as I read the materialsput out by GS, I don't think there's a philosophical or practicle conflict -- as many have said, it's mostly a matter of leadership.

I just feel that my daughter and I are kin to the girls who showed up unanticipated at the very first Jamboree. We want to play the game too.

ScoutNut, thanks for the encouragement [Are you going to be involved in your daughters life, or aren't you.] That's a good swift kick in the pants I need when I start to feel overwhelmed or like David the night before facing Goliath.

So, given that GSUSA has some cultural biases that just grate on the nerves of a BSA scouter, I'm guessing I will end up starting a new troop. Well, I'll carefully check out the troops in our area; maybe I'll be pleasently surprised. But I will definitly hold out for aspectes of traditional scouting the I hold dear, and that my daughter wants to participate in, such as:

1. Emphasis on outdoor/pioneering skills and scoutcraft

2. Patrol method -- they're Webelos age, so we'll start slow, and I'll focus on training a small group leadership skills. But dear daughter really wants a patrol yell etc. Learning to actuate their dreams, from dream, to plan, to resourcing, to execution.

3. Conservation and Community Service large and small projects. joining others and small self-initated projects.

4. Uniforming head-to-toe for meetings and outings, and Courts of Honor where the scouts families are invited.

5. Parental involvement: 1 registered leader to 6 girl minimum ratio. Tap parents to teach skills they know. Expectation for extra adults along for outings -- GSUSA saftey guidelines read as MINIMUM numbers required, not max limit.

I don't think anyone from GSUSA could actually fault me for any of these, as long as I'm careful to couch them in the right terminology. I'm pretty good at "code switching".

In my wilder moments, I think, "maybe I'll start a new movement within GSUSA!" Usually, I look at this and think, "well, it's worth a try, but I wonder if I setting us up for four years of struggle and frustration."

What do you all think?

Having three children of scouting age spread over three units is keeping me spread a little thinner than I'd like. My youngest and oldest are now in related Pack/Troop. Lots of leadership overlap, minimal calender conflicts. I'm the den leader for my Tiger, and active adult in my oldest's troop.

So now we're adding in a Junior Troop, and I'm not even sure there's one in the local area to join -- the council office won't take calls until September. Well, ok that's today, but sheesh we've been in school for 3 weeks by now.

Sarah still enjoys the pack meetings, but wishes that her GS toop would do "fun" things like the cub scouts (family camp, archery ranges, camping) or the things she's been able to do with her brothers (Scout-O-Rama etc.).

Since there's been a bit of a "flurry" of activity in this forum, thought I might start a new discussion. I hope it helps to build a Girl Scout presence here at Scouter Network.

I imagine most of the forum members here have connections with both scouting organizations. Does anyone have survival hints or things that worked/did't worked, wished they did work? Advice, anecdotes etc?

Oh boy, what I have to look forward to!

This spring, while my front porch was decorated with drying tents from snow camping trips, and my living room festooned with sleeping bags airing out, and storage boxes for technicle clothing strewn about, I nearly made good on my threat to redecorate the house a la REI.

Hey, I'm as bad as my dh and son. Between staffing for woodbadge, camping with cubscouts and girlscouts, it didn't make much sence to totally stow my camping gear either.

Then there's my stash of props for teaching CS Pos Specific, my Den "box", and my growing library of BSA books, related books and field guides. Usually hanging out in my bedroom or the livingroom.

Of course, there's stuff randomly placed in the garage(the image of a squirrel burying acorns comes to mind): the beadie baby kits JoAnne's had on 50% off, remnents of nyoln ripstop or thick plastic sheeting, a collection of empty oatmeal canisters and empty 2 liter soda bottles, hulahoops, jumpropes, and model rocket equipment(donated by neighbor). *In the fall* major quantities of popcorn. Scrap wood and 9-year-old sized hammers and screwdrivers. coping saws.

My sewing days are over, but I keep my machine around for patches.

My cookbook collection has almost as many titles relating to outdoor/backpacking/dutch oven cooking as anything else.

um, no, it's not just you. Unfortunantly for all of us there is some pretty heavy self-imposed segregation going on.

There is a very active and helpful forum for Girl Scouting at

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/main.asp?webtag=GSLeaders&nav=start&prettyurl=%2FGSLeaders%2Fstart

try it out!

hmmm, yes, you're probably right, pack saddle. If I were to be honest, I'd say my internal mood was less than chipper last week. Point taken.

sooo... acco40 is an office stapler? And this is significant because...? Is this a reference to "...fold, mutilate, staple or spindle" or what? I don't get it.

acco40:

acrimonious (Pronunciation: "a-kr&-'mO-nE-&s. Function: adjective): caustic, biting, or rancorous especially in feeling, language, or manner

Had your posts been acrimonious, it would have been ironic because you were complaining about less than pleasent reasons for posting, thus unintentionally doing it yourself, thus being ironic. Which is usually completly impossible for an American to carry off... but maybe you're not from the states origionally...?

You're right on about option #3. ICK. I really like the proposed "Navigator, Sojourner, Ambassidor" idea -- it has a very scout-like ring to it, but not a copy of BSA's interpretation.

It would be refreshing to stop competing with other non-scout organizations like 4-H and Boys & Girls Clubs, and be more in synch with the other WWAGGGS groups!

I'll send off an email to National today!

Thanks for the info

(A GS leader -- Juniors -- as well as a Scouter!)

I started attending (Cub Scout)roundtable because my best friend was a regular, and because satified a requirement for the den leader knot.

I made some friends, so I kept coming. Then I realized it was a great place for fighting mid-year burn out, and I started showing up early and hanging around to help with clean up.

Now, I'm moving to a new state, and I'm looking forward to the roundtable meetings to start making new friends.

Before the move, I was cubmaster, and I had planned to have my den leader/program planning meetings at an inexpensive resturant right before roundtable. There's so much roundtable offers, why not consolidate meeting nights and take full advantage of someone ELSE inventing the wheel? Maybe someone else can see if this would work.

In my eldest son's troop, usually one of the ASM's shows as well as the Com Chair. But the Scout reoundtable get's bigger numbers attending than the Cubs. I think more district business gets carried on there.

*grin at SR540Beaver*

Honestly, acco40, your posts in this thread are the most acrimonious of all. This would be ironic, but we're Americans, and everyone knows we simply fail miserably at irony.

CalicoPenn's image of a late-night, scouts-all-tucked-in campfire bull session resonates with me.

Beavah's spelling is annoying at times, but it gives good "color" to his "voice". I'll aspire to thinking like a commish, Beavah, maybe someday I'll feel qualified for that role.