SiouxRanger

Thanks, ThenNow.  I think you are very realistic. I, too, hope for the things you do.

5 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Which procedure? Should I repost my surgery warning? (I couldn’t resist.) Happy to lend thoughts if you clarify a bit. Thanks.

The final result of National' bankruptcy.  Just wondering what survivors would consider a "good result." (Considering the inherent infirmity of the legal system to undo the damage that has been done.) I'm not looking for a dollar amount-that will be whatever it ends up being.

25 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

I think that if the youth are 'disappointed' because a leader isn't wearing his Eagle Mentor pins on his uniform, it's only because they needed to be taught better principles more clearly.

First of all, if you were to change into a suit coat to receive the mentor pin and change back after, that would do the exact OPPOSITE of denigrate the significance of the uniform - rather, it would be a powerful demonstration of how much one honors the uniform and its proper wearing, and if anything, would only serve to increase its esteem and respect. 

I taught my Webelos Scouts about the importance of wearing the uniform correctly out of both respect for the uniform, the organization it represents, and themselves as members of this august body. I taught them about how the military is very strict about its uniform guidelines, as are police officers and other important service organizations, and I made sure to ALWAYS wear mine correctly. And they followed that same tone of respect for their uniforms while with me and when they moved on to Scouts BSA; my boys (bless their hearts) were known for ALWAYS being remarkably well-uniformed.

As they started earning the rank of Eagle, they would ask me beforehand about the mentor pins, since I had taught them in Cub Scouts that they weren't for uniform wear. So I would tell them that I trusted them to be clever enough and creative enough to come up with a solution. And every single one of them did! Most would present them in lovely little jewelry boxes. They were never disappointed, because they were taught to be prepared. That's what Scouting, properly done, is all about.

But when my Den Chief finally had his Eagle Scout ceremony, he had already just finished boot camp with the Marines - and he made it very clear to me that we would be appearing in his military uniform. So we had his Scout uniform displayed on a mannequin we found, perfectly arranged and looking very professional. But as we presented him with his medals and neckerchiefs, he pointed out to the audience very maturely that he was not to wear them on his military dress uniform, so we simply handed him the medal in its box, and placed the neckerchief on the mannequin. His example was a potent teaching moment for everybody there, and after that, the quality of uniform wearing in both the troop and all the dens in our adjacent pack improved to the point of nearly universal perfection, especially among my fellow leaders, who up until then were less attentive to the concept as I had been.

The natural consequence of this was that behavior, involvement, and maturity in our units improved dramatically. We never had problems getting the boys to volunteer or participate in activities, they were naturally willing to take the lead on their own troop affairs and advancements, the Cub Scouts were better behaved and more interested in learning, and the adults became more sincere in their commitment to the program. And much of that was because of the fact that the way we present ourselves affects the way we behave; like actors on the stage, our costuming affects the way we play our part.

But these things have to be taught, and I wonder how many leaders are able to effectively communicate these kinds of ideas to young people, and because they find themselves unable or unwilling to do so, end up being a bit too casual or too apathetic about the concept (as with so many other things in Scouting, uniforms being but one part of the much larger whole). And they do so at a cost; the benefits of the appearingly small extra effort go far beyond the Scouts simply "looking good" - it's about feeling good, about feeling right, and allowing that to help build the natural confidence that they will need and use to grow into powerful, effective leaders someday. We trivialize what we do not fully comprehend, but were we to really consider why we do the things we do, we would likely do them a bit better.

"Gravity" is a natural law.  Expound heartily to the contrary, yet the "Apple still falls."  Stephen J. Gould.

I absolutely and thoroughly reject your analysis.

Good luck with Scouting.

On 7/22/2021 at 11:13 PM, The Latin Scot said:

So ... if we would just let Scouters wantonly ignore the Guide to Awards and Insignia ... there would be no war?

🤨

 

Perhaps I misjudge, are you advocating going to war with snot-nosed cub scouts and their moms?

In my Troop I satisfy myself that the scouts have their shirts tucked in.

So, some clarification seems to be needed (and particularly to confused mrjohns2).

I heard somewhere, many years ago, that Boy Scouting was the only youth program that gave awards to adults. (I do not know if this is true or not, but it is irrelevant to this discussion.) (But that comment does target BSA as having an adult "advancement" element. Beginning to sound like a Mary Kay meeting.)

It got me thinking, should I be accepting awards only for those for which I was competing (or competitively awarded), or also awards bestowed by a group for whatever reason suited it? "Do a Good Turn Daily," "Cheerful Service.," and such, I take those to heart.

I know several scouters who wore as many as 27 knots, each trying to out-compete the other.  And I ask, "Where is the benefit to youth if knots are earned for the purposes of a peacock's display?"

As a "self-starter" I need no encouragement, support, pats-on-the-back, and such, to work diligently and tirelessly to advance my Scouting tasks.

Nobody need tell me if I "did well."  I know my shortcomings far too well enough.

So, I resolved only to accept awards which were competitively awarded-mostly.  I did accept the District Award of Merit, and many years later, Silver Beaver.  But I wear only my Eagle knot.  And now that I contemplate the Eagle Scouts that have awarded me a Mentor Pin, I need to wear at least one (each can think it is their pin, however brothers awarded me each's pin at a recent Eagle Court of Honor, so now I shall wear two).

Those that know me, know what I have contributed and those that don't-it matters not. I am pretty reserved. It is not about me.

The Eagle Mentor pins I have received, I received at Eagle Courts of Honor.

As a good scouter and troop leader I wear my uniform to Eagle Courts of Honor. I am to stand as an adult example.

The Mentor pins have been pinned on my uniform.

Perhaps I should pause the proceedings, change into a suit coat, receive a Mentor Pin, re-pause the proceeding to change into...

Seriously?

Does that not denigrate the significance and value of the uniform???

If the uniform is acceptable to accept the awarding of a Mentor Pin it should be suitable for wearing it there ever after.

I wear my uniform to troop meetings-I could hardly imagine the reaction of a scout who recently awarded me their Mentor pin-many times to the exclusion of their own Father-who does not see me wearing his pin.  What do they think of me and what do they think I think of them?

I did not get into Scouting adult leadership to disappoint children.

On 7/21/2021 at 12:22 PM, TAHAWK said:

"That is right up there with hanging up on a Scout who calls asking if you will counsel him on a Merit Badge.  After all, one-on-one telephone conversations are expressly prohibited."

 

i could never bring myself to do that.  i did ask that they have someone on the line the next time.  

 

Nor did I erase emails addressed ony to me.

 

Rules are easy if the rule-maker knows nothing about the facts on the groud.  Like "stay put" in each and every wilderness survival situation.  

I forward emails from a scout to a parent and let them know I require parents to be copied on any email to me.  (SM or other troop leader will do too, but parent is best.)

A word about court and law firm mechanics.

All I'll say is that Federal court deadlines, filing dates, and turn-around dates are much shorter than state courts.  What would be 30-60-90 days in state court can be only a week or less in Federal Court.

Cases in Federal court typically involve huge sums and the firms involved devote a dozen or more partners and associates to document drafting and revisions, but that the RSA 2.0 appeared within 24 hours of RSA 1.0's imminent expiration is impressive.  It may have been in the drafting stage for some time, perhaps even being negotiated and revised as the parties were debating RSA 1.0 before the Judge.

"We win on RSA 1.0-trash RSA 2.0."

"Lose on RSA 1.0-Presto! Voila! RSA 2.0."

That drafts of the almost certain many versions of RSA 2.0 had to routed past attorneys for all the parties, and approved, or changes made, and THOSE changes then re-routed around. A formidable accomplishment.

11 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Nice. This is just epic level trolling.

The insurance companies have now filed a supplement to their Rule 2019 motion that consists of nothing but Kosnoff's tweets mocking the judge and indicating that he (Kosnoff) is the one truly in charge of the 17000 clients.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/861e377e-a772-42e9-8779-1b90257e5fab_5804.pdf

The Judge could be evaluating her options between civil and criminal, direct and indirect contempt of court. Perhaps that attorney will manage this case to conclusion from a jail cell.

10 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Have to say I am surprised that the media has not run this story yet. Even the bankruptcy focused media has been from what I can see silent.

For some strange reason, the BSA continues to enjoy a high level of deference.  (Maybe it will all work out OK.)  My best guess.

(OK in the sense of "good news to report" as measured by the media.  I doubt that any resolution will be seen as good news by the survivors.)

However, on that note, would any survivor care to express their hopes for this procedure?

Given what is on the table tomorrow before the Judge, a lot will be learned about the likely course of this proceeding.

14 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Hm. I hadn’t known. It makes sense I couldn’t remember. I feel better. Thank you. Now I “know” something else about a subject and context I hope I never need to remember, even though I now know it in my knower. 

As to death, resurrection and miracles, I’m getting a Zombie Apocalypse vibe. I think I’ll prepare accordingly. Not sure if we’re in the Walking Dead, Zombieland, Resident Evil, Night of the Living Dead or Train to Busan. I’ll give it some thought and report back.

The course of a lawsuit can change on a dime and head off in virtually any direction.

The hearing yesterday, the Judge completely changed her mind upon learning of the looming expiration of the RSA. Curiously, but understandably, for the reason that she was not about to put the smaller parties through expensive pre-motion preparation if there was the possibility that the hearing was not to be held at all.  Sensitive and cost conscious.

Back to changing on a dime...clients change their minds. There are many reasons to numerous to launch into, but a huge trial can devolve into the preparation of a settlement agreement on the last terms offered. Or explode into a hotly contested matter when all seemed calm.  It only takes a change of mind; mind changing is not subject to the laws of physics.

Another significant game changer is a court ruling.  One can entirely change the course of litigation.

Litigation is the fastest game in town, bar none, the markets, politics...none.

I don't think that a facilities use agreement is likely to fully protect the former CO, now landlord.  The former CO's should insist on the Council indemnifying the former CO from all losses and attorney's fees, and providing proof of insurance coverage.  Standard stuff in the legal world.

In the past, this was of little concern as the CO's did not know of the silent avalanche of claims building and roaring down upon them.

In its own way the silence of BSA toward the CO's is financial abuse.  The CO's wracking up year after year of sponsorship (liability exposure) blissfully ignorant of BSA's knowledge of a huge financial threat. Reassured by BSA's lack of panic.

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

If I had to guess it is going to be to convert to facilities use agreements with the councils serving as COs

If I were a CO even with a facilities use agreement I'd still insist that my employee be present in three deep leadership concerned that some crafty/artful lawyer would seek to impose liability through some theory or nuance of premises liability.

If you do NOTHING, you are almost certainly not a defendant.  If you do anything, perhaps ever so slight as provide a key to the front door, you are a target. The risk is not zero.

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Ok …. Very interesting point just came up in FB.  The official UMC FB page said the final bankruptcy deal Must include COs to allow COs to continue work in scouting.  They also said progress is being made.     So…. Perhaps that is the hiccup.  The final deal must have COs (as BSA cannot function well at this time without COs) and the CO portion of the deal isn’t finalized.  

The UMC must see some way clear to continue involvement and drastically minimize the liability exposure.  If they have a plan, I hope it is shared with the other CO's who may be on the verge of walking.

And so, what is camp staff liability for failure to find the cameras?

Will camps have to swap out (apparently) clear or translucent hand towel dispensers with opaque or metal ones? Will that even solve the problem if those can be tampered with in some fashion?

Does looking for hidden cameras become a new NCAP standard?  Do NCAP teams get trained on this now? And what of the liability of the NCAP assessment team that fails to find them?

A number of adults and youth had their privacy violated.

And there's the bad press to handle.

And a camp that is reported to be one of the largest in the country serving 6,000 scouts now has its reputation besmirched, perhaps adversely affecting attendance. Like BSA needs more problems.

Fortunately, he did get caught.

“This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.”
FRED THOMPSON - as Admiral Painter

The fuse has been lit; the die is cast.

I agree with CynicalScouter-there are tons of ways this can go wrong.

Might as well try to control an avalanche with a trowel.

And the problem of a "Parents of" organization is that you are potentially liable even if you are NOT on the campout where an alleged incident occurs.  As a principal in the sponsoring organization, not incorporated or having some other liability shield aspect, even 1,000 miles away on a business trip, you are potentially liable, and a Defendant.

Lawyers "leave no stone unturned."  Everyone gets named as a Defendant-"Let the Judge sort it out."

12 hours ago, fred8033 said:

... OR ... we end up having many "Parents Of" COs. 

Heavens.  Would I, as a parent want to take on liability the likes of which the BSA with its millions can't cover? I know the parents in my unit.  I see them for an hour and a half once a week.  Around a table, and sometimes at a weekend campout, but other than that? And I am to bet the farm on that slim knowledge base?  Do I need to go into the insurance market and procure a policy for myself?  That's crazy.    Parents won't do that. Now that the BSA has shown us the nightmare of this all.

The best thing a lawyer can do is keep their client away from the courthouse.  And just behind that, avoid any need to TALK about anything.  (Even if you win, or it all goes away quietly.) Talk is NOT cheap.

As near as I can tell, BSA has blocked disclosure of Hartford's policies and the amount of liability Hartford may face.  If I am incorrect, someone please educate me.  But, if that is true, it boggles the mind that the BSA and Hartford would seek approval of a settlement at $650 million without the benefit of knowing what is being given up.

The answer may be buried in all the pleadings.

19 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

From where I sit that there would be a lot of lawyers making a mad dash to the court houses.  Most likely may not be the best for the insurers would it?  If hypothetically 10,000 lawsuits were filed that would be a lot of litigation with jury trials.

I think that the bankruptcy stay prevents new lawsuits from being filed until the stay is lifted.

If claimants could file new suits now, high volume filings might persuade insurers to soften their bankruptcy stance instead of facing a demonstrated onslaught of new cases.

Since new cases cannot be filed, insurers can only speculate what they might face.

The idea of "onslaught" has to be tempered with recognition that filing a case which is outside a statute of limitations is not only pointless (a hollow threat) but probably legally unethical on the lawyer's part.

Quote

The Decline and Fall of Soviet Empire: Forty Years That Shook The World ...
By Fred Coleman, p. 145.

"The Russians themselves never believed their country had an effective civil defense program against nuclear attack. I asked dozens of Soviet friends, and none of them said they had ever been drilled on either going to a shelter or evacuating the city. One Russian I knew well suggested this procedure: "After the nuclear attack warning sounds, wrap yourself in a sheet and walk slowly to the nearest cemetery. Why slowly? So was not to panic the others."

 

Now that the LC's are apparently "all in," time to look for a sheet.

And yet not a peep in my Council about the effect of National's bankruptcy.

When I enter information in my Profile "About Me" tab, who can see it?

And there are other features like articles, reputation, etc.  How and where-how does this work?  I am new and probably missing what everyone else knows.

I don't understand how "reputationa' works and if I should be up liking or down liking posts and all of the mechanics of this forum.

Perhaps there could be an introductory response to newbies like me to introduce them to the basics of the forums.  (And I may have missed this entirely.)

And if I am totally lame, just throw me from the bridge.

Thanks.

3 hours ago, yknot said:

We have some patrols who use them a lot. Not all, but some. They have a group chat or text and instead of using meeting time to organize campouts, etc., they prefer to do it that way. They can order food, have it shipped or ready for pick up, pay each other via Venmo or whatever they are using. It can be efficient and independent. Don't assume they're all doing Reface or whatever. Well, most of the time they are, but not always. 

And so it has all changed.  In my day, our patrol met once a week, no adult supervision, and worked on scout skills.