JSL3300

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I will challenge this one.  If your scout is active, scouting has significant cost.  If your scout and you are both involved, it's very significant.  IMHO when both scout and parent are active in scouts, the cost is at least the same as most sports; if not more.

100% this. Our council just announced that they'll be doing a council fee that matches the national fee so now before one single activity, it is $170 to be a scout. As far as I can see, this gets you zero fun. My family has two scouts and two leaders. We're looking at $470 before a single camping trip, rank patch, anything. 

Maybe the small expense was once a draw (When my boys started in 2018, it was $33 for national, $42 pack fee and that wasn't even very long ago!) but that's in the past. 

Continuing to think on this, and am wondering if there will be a box to check for scout that are on scholarship- if their renewal emails can be sent straight to the pack. If anyone is national is listening, we need that to be an option! 

We have never charged our volunteers to volunteer. We know how many volunteers we need to pay for and divide that cost and build it into what we charge scouts. Now each adult will get an email charging them $60 to volunteer each year. I can't think through just yet if we will attempt to reimburse that or what that will look like. 

I agree that this sounds ok at first glance but will actually lead to added work on the part of the (paying) volunteers running each unit. 

6 hours ago, DannyG said:

Actually, the rule for Cub Scouts is council "approved" camps. They don't have to be council owned. My council has approved the state park our unit camps in, and some privately owned (church groups) camps.

Check with your unit commissioner. They may be able to help get your camp approved.

Yup. Until a few weeks ago, that list of "approved" camps was just the council camps. I think there are a few more now. Hoping that list continues to grow. 

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Actually some of us predicted this was the reason for the rule change.

Maybe. From the local units I've talked to, including our own, it is just making people feel like they are running underground organizations. We do our spring camp at a rotation of state parks. For the last two years at the bottom of the info sheet for spring camp, we put this: 

1 hour ago, DannyG said:

Meaning your Cubs must camp at a council staffed camp in order to stay more than one night. It doesn't apply if you find your own campsite outside BSA. So the council adds some honey to attract the Cubs into the local camp... Win-win? Unintended consequences? Better than nothing I suppose.

 

Yeah. From how this reads, nothing with change? We've always checked in and out with the campmaster anyway. What I do wonder is about the ban on shooting sports for cubs when not at a council event. Prior to that rule change, our council had rangemaster training and each unit that wanted to do shooting sports would send someone to get trained so they could do shooting sports on council property during unit campouts. They changed the rule to say cubs could only shoot at council events. Maybe now that camp is technically a council event, maybe one of the things they can bring back is letting cubs do shooting sports and camp. Fingers crossed. 

Edit: Emailed camp director. Not going back to old style of range renting. Bummer. But glad we can still camp. 

Looks like my council has come up with a work around? A loophole? I don't know, but I'm here for it since we had already reserved our site for our annual fall camp. Waalaa, your pack camping trip is now a council camping trip! 

Cub Scout Short Term Camping

This is so relevant to a conversation we've been having with our oldest son. He crossed over last year and the biggest shock to his system is how un-fun Boy Scouts is vs Cub Scouts. I love that distinction between joy and fun, because I actually think what is missing from his troop is joy. Even the things that really could be fun are often not because there's not joy behind it. That's really interesting and something to think on. 

Honestly, being in this troop has been hard on my typically joyful son. He just doesn't get why they're all so grouchy! We're playing in the woods, what is there to be grouchy about?! That said, it's been incredibly character forming. He has learned so much about what kind of leader he doesn't want to be, about changing the culture of a group from within, about maintaining joy when you're with grumps, and asking questions and being curious even when there's a good chance your question is going to be met with eye rolls. We've given him the option to switch to another troop, but he's like, "I want to see what I can do here first." 

I think that to overcome the tendency for teenage grumpiness and apathy, adult leadership that is strong in joy is probably a necessity.

I am a Webelos den leader for my younger son and I've been just about sick at the idea of sending my precious scouts who have been led so far with joy and the desire to nourish into this troop. I will not be taking on a large leadership role at the Boy Scout level so it feels like feeding them to wolves, but hopefully they'll go forward with how they've been scouting all along and it will slowly make a change. 

Thanks for giving words and new ideas to something that's been floating in my head a lot lately. I'll be following this discussion because I think it's important. 
 

My husband and I lead the Cub Scout pack that both of my boys were in prior to last year, when our oldest took the leap into Scouts BSA. The unit he chose is small and the SM and ASM are both older guys with no kids in the program. The older scouts were not overly welcoming and one of the boys that crossed with mine dropped after a couple of months because he felt bullied. 

We had a transparent conversation with one of the families from our pack that also picked that troop to cross into. We both revealed that we felt incredibly uncomfortable sending our boys into the woods with these men and older scouts. Because we all four led at the pack level, we already had YPT and what we decided is that one of the four of us will go on every campout until we felt comfortable letting them go solo. We didn't express exactly why we were doing this, but the SM and ASM have been completely fine with it and always check in to see if we're coming. 

I don't think it should be a policy that people without children in scouts can't go camping, but I do think it should be made obvious to parents that if they want to take YPT and camp with the troop that they are welcome. I don't think it's overprotective to be wary of a group that has had years and years of this type of history. 

It would be interesting to know. They can't have the numbers for how many didn't sign back up at the beginning of this year, right? Their only insight into our roster is recharter and crossover. I'd love to see these numbers again in January. 

Our district just sent out cub recruitment numbers in an effort to draw out registrations that are laying around. Included in the table are numbers at the end of last year, recruitment numbers and numbers from as of 10/21/22. Almost exactly the same amount were recruited as left. Last year ended with 786. Right now there are 790. 

There are a couple outlier packs that either gained or lost 15-20 but most groups are up or down 2-8 scouts. Some exactly replaced those that left. 

I see this as not great or terrible news. Our pack is up 2. I like where we're sitting and don't see it as a numbers game at a hyperlocal level, but know that all of that adds up if we look at the bigger picture. 

8 minutes ago, FireStone said:

 

There really isn't much about the Lions program that makes me think it has been worth it. I feel like we even had better recruiting numbers before Lions, when we only had to recruit Tigers and they were at a better age for starting in Scouting.

 

 

This is a really good point. Because it starts at Kindergarten, it's possible that even first grade parents feel like it's "too late" for them to start because it's a program in motion. Now, we see the majority of our recruitment numbers in Lions and then get a smattering in the other grades. 

9 hours ago, cmd said:

Definitely this.  If you have an orderly den/pack experience like what most parents are looking for, then you move to a boy-led scene where it takes an hour and a half and you still barely have a menu for the upcoming campout (not that this happened this evening or anything) it's a real adjustment.  
We've also had some kids at least on the verge of leaving and not coming back when we told them that their Whittling Chip wasn't any good anymore and they had to put that pocket knife away.  And while they're at it, stop poking at the fire until they can get someone to take the time to do the Fireman's Chit with them.  
 

Oh my gosh, this is exactly it! Cubs is so fun and that initial run at scouts just... isn't. I think we have extraordinary mediocre leaders, both youth and adult, in my son's troop and that doesn't help matters. It makes me feel better to know that that rocky transition isn't unique to our situation. I'm trying to better prepare the den of Webelos that I lead now for that transition. Hope that leads to more retention for the group. 

12 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Do you charge them the same dues (assuming your pack has dues)?

We charge them the same registration, which goes straight to national and we can't do anything about. We've made everyone's registration slightly more to absorb the $25 new scout fee because it feels so gross to ask new folks to pay more. We don't have pack dues, but we do have a minimum fundraising requirement or buy-out option, which we don't push with the Lions at all. If they fundraise, great. If not, also fine. 

We keep our Lion program really light. They come to one den meeting and one pack meeting a month but are invited to monthly hikes and all campouts and weekend activities. I'm the Webelos den leader this year and started with my scouts as Lions. We have 5 that have been here for the entirety of that time and 6 that have joined between Kindergarten and this year. There is not a skills or enthusiasm difference between having been around or brand new- for the parents or the scouts. 

That said, my oldest son crossed over this year and the difference between the cub program and the scouting program is so huge that I can't see "burnout" being the main cause of scouts not going on. It's a whole different thing, at least from my experience. If scouts don't know that going in, I can absolutely see them quitting in that first 6 months. Half of the kids my son crossed over with did. It was culture shock for our family and my son very seriously considered quitting and we kind of knew what we were getting into. 

 

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Are you with a Methodist Church??  If yes, then they are not renewing charters just yet, but extending them until March 2022 (I think)

Nope, we aren't with a church at all. Our school's PTA is our chartered org. 

This may be the wrong thread, but I wanted to know if a rechartering situation that I just encountered was unique or if this is associated with the new charter relationships. 

Our unit turned in our recharter directly to the DE on Saturday. There was nothing within the recharter paperwork that required the signature of the institution head OR the chartered org rep. In the past, both of them have had to sign our recharter. When we were taking the paperwork in, we thought they would tell us we got an incomplete packet and we needed to go back and get those signatures. When we asked, they said that that form is no longer in the recharter packet. 

I don't understand what this means. From my point of view, this means there is no legal relationship between the chartered org and our unit, right? Anyone else experience this or have any deeper insight as to why this may be the case? Are other districts omitting that form from the packets as well? 

One thing we've done to combat this  is to make our schedule very consistent and very early.  I feel like for a lot of families (mine included) whatever makes it to the calendar first is what wins out. If someone asks us to do something and I look at my calendar and there's something already there, we can't do it. If a party or sport or scout event makes it there first, we go to that. All of our dens meet at the same time/place every week so even families with multiple scouts are still only devoting one evening a week to scouts. We also keep the same den meeting schedule from year to year- you know that 6:30 on Thursdays are for scouts and you can plan accordingly all year. We know the exact dates for most of our weekend things for the year as soon as you sign up in August. I really think this helps. 

We did have two long time scouts quit this year because soccer was also at the same time on Thursdays all fall and it's impossible to be two places at once. We told them that they are welcome to register after soccer season, but so far we haven't seen them. 

Something we talk about in another organization I'm in is investing time/energy in the dry wood. Wet wood isn't going to catch, we can tend to it in minimal ways, put up a tarp so it can eventually dry out, but we aren't going to beat ourselves up because it's not catching. Find the families that are prioritizing and invest there. My husband and I have used that same philosophy in scouting and it has built a strong, active pack. 

Just finished our join night and ended up with 19 new scouts! Not too shabby when you consider that our roster last year was 18 strong.  Surprisingly, it was a lot of older cubs. Our Bear den doubled, but we'll likely combine our Tigers & Wolves. Weird times. Excited for some new life breathed in! 

Our chartered org is our primary school's PTA so we have a foot fully in the door there, which is really nice. 

Our council & district, however, has been pretty much mum about recruiting. We have a new DE and I had to call and text and email to even get flyers to put into student folders. (edited because I just remembered that what actually got it done was that I cornered him in the parking lot after the popcorn meeting.) In years past, we have had little join gifts from council, DE coming to join night, signage for the school. They've given us booklets and pamphlets to give to new families. No one even asked us when we were having join nights to try to do targeted social media marketing, which I know they've done in the past. I don't get it. 

We set up tables at our school's open house and had 28 show interest. Our join night is tonight and we're eager to see how many join. We didn't recruit at all last year, so we are hoping to beef up our Tigers as well as our Lions, and we have interest at all levels. Fingers crossed! 

On 6/28/2021 at 11:49 AM, fred8033 said:

Ya know, the real interesting thing about scouting is ... it doesn't have to cost alot.  If your CO has a fire-ring, the pack can go-far with marshmellows and field games.

Right, I think that was much more true before it was $100 for a new member to even get in the door. It really *doesn't* have to cost a lot on a local level and we run a pretty tight ship, but the increasing fees are making that increasingly harder. 

19 hours ago, yknot said:

That's the way it has been. But maybe it needs to change. Top leadership being completed disconnected from program has been, in my opinion, a slow building disaster for BSA. I think senior leadership needs to have program on their dashboard so that they can better provide support to volunteers in the field. Focusing on fundraising totally detaches them from what scouts is all about. It hasn't been working. At all. 

When my family was brand new to scouting, my husband and I went to a council event because there was a contest to name the new district and we were told my husband's submission was in the finals so we should come for the announcement. It was one of our earliest interactions with anything above just our pack. Before the announcement of the winner, a council employee passed out bracelets that had the acronym SIFTS on it and went on to explain that we should wear these to remind ourselves that: Scouting, It's For The Scouts or SIFTS. He talked about how as scouters, our focus will tend to wander toward other things, but he wants to remind us why we are really here... My husband and I were looking at each other with total confusion. What else could it possibly be for? Why would we go through all this, wear these silly uniforms, do this annoying online training, why would we do ANY of it except for to pour into the lives of these kids? It blew my mind that that was something that needed to ever be said... and now we're years into this scouting life and it all makes so much sense. I think that MANY of the people that are not volunteering on a local level and actually getting to know scouts are scouting for a whole list of other reasons. Power trips, arrested development, it's a place they fit in, or they just love "bug juice", I really don't know but I think that way, way too often the scouts and their experience are not even part of the consideration.

An aside: my husband did not win the naming contest, which is fine, but someone employed by the council did and whispered conversation I heard led me to believe no other name had been entertained. So wish they hadn't played games and invited us to the dinner or we maybe could have started our relationship with council with a better taste in our mouths. 

Talked with my treasurer this morning and beefed up the Pack Expenses part of our chart- very closely reflects all of our actual expenses at this point. 

It looks a lot worse. Gulp. 

Thank you guys so much for the pointers and just for commiserating. Glad to know we're not alone- we've worked hard to be smart with our money, provide great programing and the constant fee and cost increases in other areas are just pummeling us right now.