vtcchokie92

14 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

To be fair to some councils (not necessarily yours) there have been massive layoffs in some of these councils. Having diminished staff AND being told to take on more responsibilities like this (something that runs counter to everything BSA has done for decades based on the CO model) is not something councils relish or are even prepared for.

True, and I don't know what their staffing levels are, but if they were told to come up with a plan, don't act like you weren't told.  Our Council has sponsored inner city Troops before as the CO

20 hours ago, gpurlee said:

An interesting twist to all of this is that some local councils are sending a message to national BSA that they do not have the manpower to adequately supervise local units under a facility model chartering plan. This is compounded with significant membership drops in many councils due to the pandemic and other factors.  Several councils are not filling current vacancies or are laying off staff. 

Another interesting piece is that several councils are apparently planning on delaying the start of annual re-chartering as long as possible. They are awaiting more information and a clearer picture of what to communicate and how to proceed.

There is growing frustration at the council level in many areas due to their lack of information and direction. They feel caught in a state of limbo and under pressure from chartered organizations.

According to a reliable source, the Councils were warned to prepare for this eventuality and to make plans to serve as a CO, even if temporarily, to cover down on all units that may be displaced.  Our Council did no such thing or they elected not to inform our District, so the potential now is very valid that we may lose units.  Ridiculous!

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

For the units switching to facility use agreements, who signs off as COR on adult applications?

If a UMC is switching to a Facilities Use Agreement only relationship, then the unit will need a new Chartering Organization, such as a VFW or your Local Council.

27 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Yes .. the chatter is increasing and several are indicating immediate stops.  It doesn't sound national yet as some are indicating they haven't been informed and others have been told December 31 is the end date.  One individual is comparing the plans to the LDS exit if BSA doesn't change their path on bankruptcy.   I'm still thinking it doesn't get that bad, but clearly some units are feeling the pinch as we speak.

We are and we are not supported by a UMC.  We are in conversations with a couple of UMC churches locally, but we are limiting our discussions to facilities use agreements only until we see how this pans out.  What concerns me is that our Council is unaware of the means to serve as a CO or unwilling - either way, if this does become more of an issue (and it probably will), they will be seriously behind the power curve and the Scouts will suffer.  That is unacceptable

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

Not accurate if the discussed option is in place, as the CO becomes the local council and they do have the tax status.  However, this discussion is skewed in that not ALL the Methodist churches are represented by the people that published the noted letter.  Again, refer back to the link already shared here from the main part of the Church, the Methodist Men, that indicate continued support.  The the title might be more accurate if changed to "Some" Methodist Churches.  

Thanks.  Good point on the title - whomever started the thread could change that.  Unfortunately, our Council does not plan to serve as a CO for any Troops/Packs/Crews.  From my understanding though, the tax exempt status is extended from National to the Councils and their Trust Funds, but does not extend to the individual units no matter who their CO is, including Council.  Don't have that in writing from National, only saw it on another forum and another Council's page.

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

We appear to be having a meeting / Q&A session next month with the Council, Scouters, Clergy to ask about the "evolving" relationship between the BSA and UMC.  

As noted the "Parents of XXX" would be fraught with liability and not a good path forward.  Unless the BSA agrees to insure and indemnify the CO, not going to work.  Of course with the track record of bankruptcy and tossing CO's under the bus, no CO will really take the BSA at their word.

Sad that an organization can have a great local reputation and a parent org that seems to not really follow their own Oath and Law.  Self preservation for the higher ups trumps doing what is right I guess.

Assumption is facility use agreement and some sort of Council Charter.  Or we pack our tents and sadly exit the campground.

Another issue that came up, other than the liability, is the tax implications.  A Scout Troop and Pack will lose it tax exempt status if they are not Chartered by a Church or other non-profit community organization.  Probably won't have a big impact for the most part except for donations, possibly popcorn sales/other fundraisers.

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Interesting that form still has references to charter organization and charter org representative.  Is that a council signature or are they looking for a "Parents Of" organization. 

I had the same questions when I saw this on ScoutBook forums.  The exact words our SE used was that they do not plan to directly charter any units at this time.  The implication is that they have no contingency plan either when, not if, this becomes a reality for more Troops/Packs than ours.

Just now, mrjohns2 said:

The plan seems pretty simple. The Methodists have said that Scouts can still meet there. So, the council charters the units using the new "council charter" option. The units continue as though nothing changed. 

Our council has no plan to do that nor do they have a mechanism according to our Executive

And the sad part is that the Council, at least ours, is pretending as though they do not have any contingency plans.  If the denominations pull the rug out soon, which is likely, the Councils need to have a plan.  Ours has its head in the sand (or somewhere else).

Not the Methodists, but our current CO let the Pack and Troop know two weeks ago that they would not recharter our two units.  As we started to look at other churches to support us, we were rejected by the Presbyterian Church and they were getting their marching orders from the PCA at National level.  There are rumors that other denominations are considering the same thing.

We do have one of our Girl Troops that just received their notice from the United Methodist Church that sponsors them and told them they would no longer charter the Troop.

9 hours ago, fred8033 said:

You will NOT get a clear cut answer.  

You will get the answers people want to give to justify a desired answer.  

Scout accounts is always a very contentious debate in scouting.  Heck, money always messes things up. 

 

BSA's publication is fairly consistent with IRS's letters.  IRS has intentionally left this vague and rules are set by precedent on a case-by-case basis.  But, IRS's intention is clear.  Money is for the non-profit.  Below substantial amounts, scouts can receive to their scout accounts funds as an incentive to help raise funds for the unit. 

Dollar "amounts" is mentioned because small amounts minimize IRS audit risks.  IRS cases from 1990s reflect band boosters with 60,000+ in fund raising (if I remember right). 

The main issues are interpreting "private benefit" and "substantial".  Substantial private benefit is wrong.  

 

Here's my recommendation.

• Don't let this burn friendships or people.  Depending on the debate and who's involved, this can go every direction.  
• Publish your rules.  Be consistent.  Be kind.  Be courteous.  
• Don't sweat it if your troop doesn't get the exact answer you want.  It's really hard to get a clean answer.  
• Watch for people getting upset.  Money is always a contention point.

 

For me, I think the IRS rules are clear.  Scout accounts can receive benefits from fundraisers, but keep it 10% to 20% of sales.  Over 30% is substantial and against IRS rules.  Under 10% won't be a an incentive.  It's just that the risk of being audited is extremely low with the amounts an average troop uses for fund raising.  Even if your troop raises $30,000 in wreaths.  BUT, if your troop is depositing $100,000 each year in your troop bank account from a single fundraiser, then I'd be more concerned.

At some point, if you really want a good answer, hire a tax attorney and pay them their fee to get an answer.  And, if you don't like the answer, get a different tax attorney.  You probably will get a different answer.   

Thanks for the well laid out discussion.  Let me be clear - we do not have separate accounts for each Scout - it is tracked on a Spreadsheet, and includes our Fair Share payments (annual dues), Recharter fees, summer camp, etc.  This helps us track which Scouts have paid, which ones may need some assistance from a Benevolence fund within our Troop budget, etc.  As I said, it is in our Charter from 2012 that all new Scouts (and parents) have to read and sign when joining, so they understand the rules.  Also, our Fair Share is determined using a budget based on historical expenditures for advancements, fees for Camping, Swim tests, etc. and does not take into account fundraising projections.  That would be wishful thinking not a budget and with our Troop's low fundraising ceiling, it would hurt the program overall. 

We want to make sure we are obeying the rules while making sure that we keep the Troop running.  With the COVID craziness this year, our annual dues have been harder to collect (timing and availability of funds for some parents), so we need to pay attention to where our funds are going down to the penny.  Having a Philmont trip on the horizon for next year has raised questions on what the ISA funds can and cannot be used for.

As was stated above, everyone gives you their own interpretation of the rules and what the money can be used for.  It is good to have this resource to ask questions of fellow Scouters - this is nothing like what my Scoutmaster had to deal with when I was in Boy Scouts as a Scout.

9 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

This is a really thorny issue.

There are several sets of Bryan on Scouting articles on this topic over several years. The latest I know of is here:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/12/03/individual-scout-accounts/

The BSA also has a publication on this topic, which I find less than helpful personally.

There are also IRS letters of various forms out there.

Thanks.  Our Troop was formed before this guidance was put out so it is possible our Charter needs to be updated.  We have had some Scouts sell hundreds or even a thousand or more $$s in popcorn, and we wanted to know what they can use the money for.  It is a huge disincentive to take everything a Scout sells and provide it to the unit.  We don't base what it costs to run our unit on any projections for fundraising, so if someone goes above and beyond, we wanted to know if that money can go to that Scout to use for their fair share dues for the year, summer camp payments, or even payments for Philmont/Sea Base/Northern Tier/Bechtel.

What is the latest guidance on Individual Scout Accounts and where can I find it?  Everything I see in the forums disappears after about 2014, with little new discussions.  This was part of our unit charter and as our relatively new Troop (5-10 years old) is preparing for our first forays into a High Adventure Camp next summer, we have had a lot of questions on the monies earned by high selling Scouts and what they can be used for with regards to a High Adventure trip.  I know it can't go toward personal gear, but what other restrictions are there?  Thanks

@Midwest Scouter, wow that seems a bit excessive.  Up until this point, our Council has not charged an additional fee for individual Scouts.  Our Troop has a Fair Share Payment due each year that covers the costs of running the Troop (camping fees, advancements, etc.) and for any Scouts that have financial hardships we always have volunteers willing to help them with their yearly dues.  $180 or so is what the FOS usually quotes (or close to that) as the average cost to support one Scout throughout the year.

@Eagledad, at least in our District, recharter for all the Packs and Troops occurs in the November timeframe and we usually finish out the payment and paperwork around the Thanksgiving weekend - just before or just after.  I just assumed (bad thing to do, I know) that was the standard across the US.

So why are the fees going into effect in August vice when units recharter at the end of the year?  If a new Scout joins in September of 2020, would the pro-rated fees be based off the $60 or the $66?

@RememberSchiff - thank you!

Thanks, @MattR.  One of my fellow Scouters in the Troop pointed me to this forum site, especially after the National Meeting information started coming out.  Short term concerns of our summer camp still on or not pale in comparison to what we could face in a couple of years.

Maybe I missed it in this thread, but have the fees for 2021 been set yet?  Rumors show that we will have additional increases in 2021 from what we had this past year.