Millie

Thank you all.   She has not returned to a meeting since that incident.  I do not expect that she will.  At the end of January, her Scout's membership will expire when we recharter.   She has made no effort to pay renewal fees for her Scout.  The deadline for paying renewal fees is January 4.

SSScout, the father has not been a part of the Scout's life for several years.  The mother and father are divorced and seriously estranged.

1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:

Are her Cub's advancement records all in order and ready for transfer?

Yes, everything is in Scoutbook and Advancement Sync was activated just a few days ago for BSA.  Complete Cub Record Bobcat forward.

20 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Yes, that was kind of the show-stopper for me too.  I think that Millie inadvertently did what journalists call "burying the lede."  (And yes, that is how lede is spelled; I may be a lawyer now, but this is not my first career.) 

Of course, Problem Mom's sordid personal past could range anywhere from something like shoplifting or passing bad checks (in which case the fact that she falsely tells people she is pack TREASURER raises a whole fleet of red flags) on up to something violent.  We just don't know.

NJ, Guilty as charged!   However, at the time that I made my original post, her "law related" reason for declining to register as a leader (somehow) seemed less significant.  I am not sure why... especially in light of your "passing bad checks" comment relating to her Treasurer claims... Goodness.  Well, I continue to sit her patiently - still waiting for that promised call from Council.  They did have quite the bundle of correspondence to read.  It's time to cut the cord with Problem Mom and move on to the more important task of providing a quality program for our Scouts. 

I'm a proud mom of three, two boys and a girl.  I have a Boy Scout, an Explorer and a Ballerina.  I still work with our previous Pack, as Committee Chair.  So in all of that, my time is full.  I enjoy every moment with my family and with Scouting.

I just joined today - jumped right in and asked my question.  I joined at the advice of an old friend and retired Scouter.  He recommended that I come here for advice and he was on target! 

This looks like a great forum with a lot of experienced Scouters willing to help with advice and encouragement.  

Thanks for letting me be a part of this group!

1 minute ago, Col. Flagg said:

I feel for the Boy Scout troop that takes her son if she is still like this then. Hopefully she will change. Experience says she won't. She's bitter about something and everyone around her is suffering.

What bothers me the most if the impact on the young man. Her son is going to miss out on sooooo much because no one is going to want to deal with his mom. THAT is the travesty in all of this.

Best of luck getting the result you need. Stay strong! 

It is sad for this young man, but we have all just reached the end of our patience in dealing with her drama.

Thank you Colonel! 

1 minute ago, Col. Flagg said:

Kick her out...keep her son. He sounds like a good kid despite his DNA.

I cannot say I have ever had a parent attempt to get pack meeting dates, times or locations moved at the Cub level. Den meetings? Sure. But then we usually invited the griping parent to "host" them...that usually shuts them up pretty fast.

If she cannot pass a background check that's a MAJOR red flag. I would not let her alone with any adult or child. Never.

I wish there were a way to keep her son, we've pondered this, but I don't see it being a possibility.  She rarely lets him very far out of her sight.  In addition to her other endearing personality traits, she is also a helicopter parent.  

All of our Dens meet on the same night/time due to the fact that we have so many families with multiple scouts in our unit.  So, it just works best for us that way.  To change her Den, she'd have to change the entire Pack meeting date/time/location.  Not likely to happen.

That major red flag has been up for the better part of two years since her disclosure.  She's never alone with any other member (youth or adult).   

Just now, Col. Flagg said:

I wish I could rep this 1000 times!

That's EXACTLY it, @Stosh (see, still works ). It is a game. She doesn't care about the outcome, only the process of throwing stones at ANYTHING and seeing the reaction. 

Exactly!

3 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Over the years I have been involved in a lot of "political" hassles in many different organizations and the dynamics are always the same.  The simple explanation for this situation is: this parent enjoys the conflict and the perpetuation of it.  It's a game to her.  She doesn't really want the game to end because then all the fun will go away.  So, the rest of the group has to decide to take it to the next level of conflict which is labeled "Divorce" and remove this woman and the game will go away, or take the conflict down to level of basic problem identification and solving.  At this level where the woman is at is never going to agree to that because that would mean the game would be over.  Well it's going to be over one way or another.  The odds of it being resolved gracefully just isn't in the cards.  The only solution would be to have her not be part of the processes of the unit.  You will probably lose a good scout in the process, make sure he knows that none of this is his fault and encourage him to stay in scouting wherever he moves on to.

Just keep it in mind that with this game that is going on, nothing in the rules points to "for the boys".  And yet, in the interest of the boys, the game has got to change, one way or the other.

Spot on Stosh!  I feel badly for her son, but as you said, in the interest of the boys, the game has got to change.

11 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

For Millie's benefit, the law-related something in my background is that I am a lawyer, but I suspect that is not the kind of law-related something in Problem Mom's background.

I suspected something like that. 

Just now, David CO said:

Gee whiz. NJCubScouter has something "law related" in his background, but that has never caused us to exclude him.

Ha!    Well, we did not exclude her from registering as a leader.  She declined to do so because she stated that she would not pass a background check due to a "law related" issue.  

19 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Um.  Do you have any idea why that is?  Not that it is necessarily any of your business, but since she actually told you that part of it, maybe she provided some details.  And, just because I am curious, does she just mean that a check of her references would probably reveal negative information, or that she would actually fail the CRIMINAL background check? 

She did not provide details but alluded to something "law related" in her background.  I

32 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMO, Council may advise but it the Character Organization's decision.

Yes, it is the CO's decision from all that I've read and heard.  However, as a courtesy, I made them (Council) aware of the situation and sought their advise to ensure that our Pack stays within guidelines and policies of BSA.  Without a doubt, if it comes down to removing/banning her, her drama will substantially increase.

1 hour ago, SSF said:

Regarding the scout in question, are you saying that you actively plan to remove the scout from the Pack?

Or are you presuming that when the mother is removed/banned that she will pull her son out of the Pack? 

The mother claiming that she is the Pack Treasurer is certainly a problem, if that's in fact the case. Did she ever previously occupy that role and if so, did you inform her that she was being removed from that position and/or that someone else would be taking over that role?

Beyond the Treasurer's issue, can you provide some specifics or details on the concerns that this mother has? You mentioned the Pack's bylaws, code of conduct, meeting locations and times etc. but can you be a little more specific?

Is her son being bullied? Are leaders trying to add rank requirements? Do the Pack's bylaws align to BSA standards and guidelines? 

Hypothetically speaking, if this other mother in question were to come to this message board, what would her account of this situation be?

Finally, has any member of the committee or the charter organization spoken with this mother, sincerely, and made this mother aware of the concerns of the committee and how her conduct or concerns are affecting the Pack Committee? 

I think it's only fair and reasonable that this mother be given the opportunity to amend her conduct before she and her son are shown the door.

When the mother is removed/banned, she will likely have no alternative but to remove her son.  She has no spouse or other family in the area that can bring him to the meetings.

She has never held any sort of registered leader position.   We have in the past invited her to be on the Committee so that she would have more than a voice, she'd actually have a vote, however, by her own admission, she could not pass a background check and will not register.

She just picks apart the Bylaws and Code of Conduct.  Both of which were reviewed and approved by our Council.  They are not anything beyond regular BSA rules, regulations and guidelines for a Pack.    Her gripe with our location is that she wants us to meet at her Church (over 20 miles away from our current location and the core of our Pack population).  Our meeting night interferes with her son's karate lessons.

Her son is not being bullied at all.  He is quiet, reserved, but seems to be well liked.  No twisting of rank requirements.

Hypothetically speaking, if she were to come to this board, it would depend on her mood for the day as to what her account of the situation would be.  It could be anything from our Pack is exemplary, to we are spawns of Satan.  She has been offered the opportunity to transfer to another Pack which may be better suited for her, but she refuses.

Our Executive Officer, the COR, Committee Chair (myself), Den Leader, current Treasurer, past Treasurer, Cubmaster, Assistant CM and many others have spoken to her.  We have listened, tried to help, expressed concerns, etc.  Some days she is gracious and apologizes for her behavior - but then the next meeting, she'll be back to stirring the proverbial pot.

When I tell you that she has been given ample opportunity to correct her behavior, that is no exaggeration.  This has literally been a ping pong match for three years.

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

If you have actual written proof (like emails from her) that Mom is saying she is the pack treasurer when she is not, especially if she is not even a registered leader, I would be sure to mention that if you speak to someone from council.  Some of the other stuff they may or may not see as a huge problem, but I think they would definitely have a big issue with someone falsely holding themself out as a leader, and treasurer may be the most concerning of all.

We do have those emails and texts.  They have been turned in to Council.  And yes, they were concerned about her misrepresentation.  They are discussing and I am waiting on a call back with their advice / recommendation.

2 hours ago, David CO said:

As a former school Athletic Director, I have had a few incidents which resulted in a parent being banned from school grounds. Since the kids were not directly involved in the incidents, they were allowed to continue their participation in the activities.

I have never banned a parent for being a general pain in the neck. It has always been for a specific and identifiable act. It seems to me if you have an "open forum" at your meetings, then you must accept the fact that somebody might express unpopular opinions. 

If the parent is actually posing as a registered leader, the best response is to calmly state that the parent is not a registered scout leader and has no authority to speak for the unit or the Chartered Organization.

She is not, nor has she ever been a registered leader.  

Unfortunately, she has stepped way beyond being a general pain in the neck.  No one in our Pack has a problem with her (or any other person's) opinion whether favorable or not.  She is welcome to voice her opinion.  And everyone's voice is heard and considered.  Her general stance is we should do everything her way or no way.  After three years, this has just worn thin.  She has gone far beyond a whiny or grumpy parent.

3 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

If this were me, and I was Committee Chair (which is the person who should be doing the notifying), I would first contact the District Executive, or whoever is the professional at your council who is assigned to your district, for some guidance.  You are going to want their support when Problem Mom contacts them, which she most likely will, so it makes sense to try to get them in your corner now.

One concern I have is that I have never heard of removing a Scout because of the conduct of his parents.  And, assuming that Problem Mom is not a registered leader, I'm not sure how you "remove" a parent except by removing her son.  This is one of the things I think you should get guidance about from council.

Hi,

Have contacted my DE, and the Regional Director for advise.   I have provided them with all of the documentation (emails, texts, etc).  

At first blush, they are in agreement Problem Mom needs to move on.  Waiting for further response.

Ian,

Thank you for your comments.  You have some valid points and I will discuss with my Committee.

Thank you!

Good Morning,I'

I'm a new member here, coming for advice on the recommendation of another Scouter.   

I've been in Scouting for a few years, but this year is my first year as Pack Committee Chair.  

In our Pack, we are blessed with many great families.  We do, however, have one Parent that has been in our Pack for three years and during that time, she has increasingly become argumentative, divisive,  and generally causes upheaval on a regular basis.

We hold regular Parent meetings to discuss plans, receive feedback and basically have an open forum so that everyone has an opportunity to ask questions.  These meetings are well received and have contributed to an overall smoothly operating Pack.  Except for Problem Mom.  

She seems to be very dissatisfied with our Pack.  She doesn't agree with the Bylaws, Code of Conduct, the operating budget/fundraising, our meeting location/date/time or the Chartered Org.  Yet she comes back, year after year, driving to our Pack from a neighboring city where there exists two Packs much closer to her home.  If she offers a suggestion during our Parent meetings and the suggestion is not met with overwhelming approval (from Parents and Committee), she becomes very defensive and angry.

I would offer that we have approximately 50 families in our Pack and she is the only Parent that finds fault in our program.

In the past week, she seems to have taken a step closer to falling off the proverbial cliff.  She is has been contacting Leaders and Parents in our Pack and other Packs, spreading all sorts of nonsense and lies.   In many of these emails, texts, etc, she has represented herself as the Treasurer in our Pack, giving the impression that she is conducting business on our behalf.  She has stated that our Pack is offering to disburse "left over" funds in our "individual scout accounts" to Parents who have either crossed over to a Troop or transferred to another Pack.  We absolutely do not have individual Scout accounts.   It is causing a lot of frustration and confusion.  

We held our Committee meeting yesterday after Church and the Committee presented a suggestion to remove her (and unfortunately her Scout) from our Pack.  The vote was unanimous.  The COR and EO are also in agreement as she has not spared them in her email tirades.  The COR recently advised Mom that if she was not happy with our Unit, she should visit one of the other Units in the area to see if they were a better fit for her.  She is not interested in transferring.  It has really just worn thin with the Committee and many other parents as well.  We are all ready to move on past this and removing her seems to be the final option.

This is a situation unique to me.  Who is responsible for notifying the Mom?  Would it be via a certified letter? A phone call?  She's going to go all manner of "nuts" on us.  Any advise on how to word this or what to say?

Thank you in advance.

Millie