PbW

I'm saving this thread so when I cross over to the troop with my son we can do some of these. Great ideas, folks!

My council, Northeast Illinois Council, stayed out of this merger. Not sure why. Hope the merger goes well for you folks.

As for Devil's Lake' date=' it's pretty but very heavily used. I think I heard they get more traffic there per year than Joshua Tree National Park![/quote']

 

This is true. Devil's Lake is very heavily used. Being so close to the Dells it gets a lot of tourist traffic that would rather camp than pay for hotels while visiting the area.

 

Devil's Lake near Wisconsin Dells is a great place for a few days of camping and hiking. On top of hiking I think they do horseback trails, rock climbing / rappelling, and some other activities. The troop my pack is connected to goes there once a year.

You say this boy has been in the pack since Tigers, but you haven't mentioned if he's earned his ranks each year. Since each rank does have some sort of religious requirement this would have to have been addresses previously. How did he earn rank in previous years and complete the religious/faith requirements?

Or maybe, since your son is only the Den Chief you can leave it alone and let the Den Lead and Cub Master handle the situation. It shouldn't really be your concern until he hits Boy Scouts and that's only if you're the Scoutmaster.

re·li·gion

rəˈlijən/

noun

• the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
  
• a particular system of faith and worship.
  
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
  "consumerism is the new religion"
  

The only way humanism can be defined as a "religion" is if the last bullet point is used very loosely. It's a philosophy on how to live life, sure... but secular humanism is not by strict definition of the word a "religion".

I have seem B&G where it becomes all about the webelos with the AOL and Cross Over.

This is the complaint I heard about B&G at the pack I just transferred my son to. The B&G was all about the Webelos-II group and the rest of the boys were bored. This year I gave the den leads the goal of having all rank progression done by B&G so all boys (who completed the program) receive their rank. March through May would be used for arrow points and non advancement projects (NOVA, Outdoor Activity Award, Sports and Academic pins, etc).

The den leads felt a bit crunched for time, but confident they could do it. Let's see how it plays out.

I'd say if they've earned it go ahead and award them all the parts of the AoL that come with that effort. Use the B&G as a ceremony for crossing over to BS alone and not a combination of AoL award and crossing over.

 

Where did you find those "rules", DigitalScout? I am not aware of any BSA rules or policies that name specific religious groups as being permitted or prohibited. Although it's a little difficult to know exactly what the policy is, my understanding is that if you believe in a higher power you are eligible for membership, otherwise, you are not. I don't know whether that necessarily includes or excludes any of the groups you name - except for Satanism. I guess Satan would be a "higher power." But keep in mind that a Scout also needs to subscribe to the rest of the Scout Oath and Law, not just the Duty to God and Reverent parts. I suspect a true Satanist might have difficulty complying with some of those points.

There are many different forms of Satanism, but the most common is based on the writings of Anton LaVey. If one follows LaVey's version of Satanism they are actually humanist/atheist. That form of Satanism uses Satan metaphorically and not literally. Satan was chosen as a representational icon of the antithesis of what christianity was about. It all started when LaVey was a organist at a traveling carnival and would see "good christians" being debaucherous and celebrating the flesh then coming to the church on Sunday to repent. He recognized that humans are just animals that celebrate such but feel the guilt placed upon them by religion and wanted some form of forgiveness for that. His thought was to forego the forgiveness and just celebrate being the human animal that one is.

Granted there are types of Satanism that actually believe they should follow the christian version of Satan on Earth and repent to God on their deathbed to be forgiven, but those are few and far between.

 

And theists talking to Atheists as well. When people's thought processes are so different, it's easy to say things that are insulting without realizing it.

 

Like I said, I love and respect BP but I don't agree with him on everything. I think like our brothers and sisters across the pond the BSA will eventually move to a more neutral policy. Not soon enough for you and your sons, but definitely within our lifetimes. I cringe when people bring up that BP quote. Given what I've studied about the man, I don't think he'd approve how it's used as a weapon of the religious vs non believers in Scouting.

 

I don't have advise for your situation. I obviously haven't walked in your shoes as a parent, or an atheist in Scouting. We just have to keep pushing and educating people. Just like the gay issue. Change will come.

 

Sentinel947

 

Thank you for your understanding. It's a very difficult subject for me, as you can guess. When my son started Tigers a few years ago I had no intention of taking a leadership position because of this. I just wanted to participate with my son. The unit he joined had no tiger den lead and when the cubmaster found out I had earned my arrow of light, oa, and eagle he asked if I would step up to lead the den. It took a lot of consideration even doing that, but my wife (who is catholic) convinced me I had enough to offer the unit that if I could look past this and just promote the program as intended to the boys I should help. Fast forward a couple years and I'm cubmaster of a different unit at the catholic private school my kids go to still promoting the program as intended (including leading the kids to earning the Pope Paul VI award). I keep my thoughts private and deliver the best program I can.

My apologies for coming across like an asshole.

I quit smoking after a pack plus a day for fifteen years two and one half years ago using ecigs. I still use them, albeit at a very low nicotine level, because I enjoy the action of vaping. Based on independent studies I have concluded it is a huge harm reduction compared to tobacco use, and will continue to use ecigs until studies find otherwise.

That being said, I agree it is not something to promote in front of youth. I have advanced setups where I can blow clouds that alter local atmospheric conditions, and I have basic setups where I can stealth vape and no one would even know. Regardless, I don't vape around youth. I will walk away while the den leads are managing things, vape for a couple minutes, and come back to the action. I keep it discrete because I don't want boys thinking the action is okay.

I use ecigs, and I'm okay with this policy.

Honestly, a lot of my frustration comes from the consistent reminder of how I'm not good enough of a person to be involved in scouting because I do not believe in god(s) by those that want to push for the traditional foundation BP laid out. I have to sit quiet while knowing that I should not be part of an organization that did so much to raise me into the man I am today. Not because it taught me religion but for all the other life lessons.

>> I think Scouting is a wider, more basic philosophy than any religions or secular principles. It includes and complements almost anybody's values.

And it's these lessons of citizenship, leadership, courage, responsibility, thriftiness, helpfulness, adventure, resourcefulness, outdoorsmanship, and respectfulness that I want to help instill in my sons. Can I do that outside of scouting, yes. But this program offers such a great framework for it. But national says I can not participate because I can not check the "theist" box... and that chaps my hide.

I did not need to go to the extent that I did in bringing up the question of morality or quoting Hitchens as that really served no purpose. That is more a reaction to BP's words that I've never been able to say aloud before in a public setting (as it were). It was not my intention to directly insult anyone... but often it's a natural byproduct of me talking to theists.

<<~~ If the requirement of believing in a supernatural supreme being stands>>

 

 

Where does it say "supernatural"?

 

 

Personally, I'm not inclined to cross examine children or adults about this issue. If someone gets up and says "I'm an atheist" then I'd make inquiries.

 

I had a Tiger Cub do that once!

You are right in that "supernatural" is not in the BSA's definition. However, given zero natural evidence for god(s) I stand behind my use of the term supernatural. What is so wrong about being an atheist? Aside from the colossally closed minded opinion of Baden-Powell that only men of god can be good people. I question the morality of any one who only does good deeds because they fear cosmic retribution or desire cosmic rewards. Do good for others because it promotes humanity and the progression of the species. To quote the late Christopher Hitchens, "Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."

 

I assume you have something else but they also publish this resource on their website.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/me...df/523-021.pdf

I wasn't aware these were published out on the site yet. Yes, this is exactly what I was referring to. They were piloting Year A when I first used it, but I think this program year is the third of this program type. Thanks for the link!

Loy_36... here is the link:

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/membership/deliverymanual.aspx

They are writing five years of programming so a boy that starts it as a Tiger doesn't see the same exact program every year.

No, this has nothing to do with "religion" as it is defined. More so about protecting a minority group and extending to them the same protections and rights as the majority... in this case allowing for a study group. Various forms of secularists are an ever growing demographic... something a group already struggling with member retention issues and being viewed as outdated or out of touch will have to account for in the future.

My first two years as Cubmaster were with a unit with seven boys, about the same mix of ages as you have. I started using a new planning guide produced by the BSA for small units like this. Instead of dens the program guide is meant to run as one unit of mixed ages. It (tries to) have a little bit for each group every week. It has it's short-comings in that Webelos don't want do to Tiger projects, and Tigers can't always handle Webelos material. It also depends on the parents doing a lot of rank specific advancement at home with the families... which doesn't work if parents expect you to hand hold the boys through 100% of the program. The upside is it keeps all the boys engaged together and you only need one other parent to help facilitate the program.

The material is BSA written so I'm sure I can distribute it to other leaders, but don't want to just post it publicly. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you the pdf.

Personally I consider humanism more of a philosophy than a religion as most humanists are also secular. If the requirement of believing in a supernatural supreme being stands, I don't think humanism would cover it... unless they claim to be a deistic humanist. Such a shame as this program has so much to teach young boys about being good men without the religious part of it.

As an adult I've only been on the Cub Scout side of the program, but I just took Wood Badge a couple months ago and found it to be very informative and worthwhile. I'm not sure why you say it should be more for the Boy Scout side of the program as the leadership development, team building, teaching/learning methods, and program goals all work well for both sides (IMO).

If I remember correctly, the only awards earned as youth that an adult can display a knot for is Arrow of Light, Eagle, Religious Award, and OA Membership (right pocket flap).

Welcome to the party. Friendly group here so feel free to ask questions or jump into existing conversations.

I'm with KDD... why not be interested in improving Cub Scout numbers? What percentage of Boy Scouts do you think started after age eleven versus the number that started as Cub Scouts.

I don't think the basic merger of two administrative teams would make a hill of beans worth of difference at the pack/troop/crew level. Exception being if the merger brings a wider range of camp options or an improvement to the professional support staff to a lesser performing council.

Membership numbers are generated at the unit level with solid recruiting support and maintained via the hard work of individual unit leaders. A merger of councils will not make your scoutmasters or cubmasters better. If increasing membership is the goal more resources should be spent on improving the performance delivery of the units and not worrying about what council one belongs to.

My view from the Cub level is different than one would have from the Boy level, especially in terms of requirements for advancement, so take that into consideration when reading this. Personally, I run a 100% secular scouting program. I do absolutely nothing to promote or require demonstrations of faith in my meetings or activities. I make it very clear that all religious awards and "duty to god" sections of the advancement requirements are to be done at home, with the boy's family. I will not attempt to accommodate the myriad of religions humans have subscribed to in my unit, and therefore simply punt and do nothing. There is so much to do in scouting that I'm comfortable leaving this part to the families to do and not come up short on programming.

To answer your question, MattR, about telling the kid to ask their parents... that would be my default answer. I'm not there to act as a religious adviser. That role belongs solely to the boys family and their own religious leaders. If the boy and their family can comfortably say they have fulfilled their duty to their god in a manner sufficient to them it's a sign off and on to the next requirement.

I don't mind annual renewal of YPT as it is critically important that we all, as leaders, follow the guidelines to protect ourselves and the boys. But I wish it was renewed more like a test and not the full video program... especially if they are not going to change the videos. Take the full training once then let renewals just be a series of multiple choice (or whatever) tests. If we fail to score high enough on the test then we have to retake the full video training.

I think qwazse has a great idea. Do it for a meeting or so, but then take it to den meetings and let them put on a show for the pack. Seems like a great idea to get the boys into storytelling.

$10,000 in gross sales is about $3000 in net income for the year. That's not a lot if the unit is of any decent size. Given that I can understand having to collect dues on top of national registration / boys life fees. And really... $90 total over the 9 month program year is $10 a month... not bad considering all a family gets out of scouting. Does the pack/den want all the dues up front, or monthly? Does that include fees for outings and camping? Is your B&G catered or pot-luck? Is this on top of the nominal national registration fees and boys life?