BrentAllen

I was going to add Roseanne Barr to the list, but calling her an entertainer? A Scout tells the truth...

Our method is pretty simple. This past Tuesday, we handed out a sheet to all Scouts that listed both the types of trips we have done in the past (canoeing, rock climbinb, caving, backpacking, etc...) and the locations (AT, Cumberland Island, Tumbling Rock, etc...). Below each of those two lists are blank lines for write-ins. The Scouts fill them and turn them in to the PLs. Scouts are encouraged to come up with new ideas and list all of them. The PLs look over their patrol responses and present that information at the PLC Annual Planning Conference this comnig Sunday afternoon. The SPL and PLC members bring any calendars that are important to them - school, athletic, band, - and they try to mesh it all together. They use a couple of big dry erase boards and throw everything up on them, sit back and look for problems, and work out the final details. It usually takes around 2 1/2 - 3 hours. Usually I am the only adult in the room, sometimes there may be one ASM join me. If we see a real problem, we ask if we can make a suggestion. The boys are in charge and it is up to them to produce a complete calendar. I have some parents, mostly mom's, who would like to get in there and rule the roost, but that doesn't happen. If you want to have older boys active in your Troop, they have to be given real ownership of the Troop. The PLC Annual Planning Conference is one of the best ways to show them that it is their Troop.

When we were backpacking on Cumberland Island a year or so ago, I started hearing the boys say "36 HUCK" and later "24 HUCK"... After hearing it enough times and not being able to figure it out, I asked, what in the heck is 24 HUCK? One of the Scouts replied - 24 HUC is "24 Hours Until Chick-Fil-A! Our trip was over a holiday weekend, meaning we were driving back on a Monday, which meant Chick-Fil-A would be open! CFA is the unanimous choice of our Scouts, when they are open. Our SPL is currently working at one of the local CFA's.

If anyone here still thinks there isn't a God, watch the video and read the story here: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/totally-heterosexual-anti-chick-fil-a-tough-guy-fired-for-bullying-drive-thru-girl/

This idiot got exactly what was coming to him - along with his free water. Smooth move, X-Lax!

Lisa, but do they smoke?

eolesen - I heard George Michaels say he was content as a hetero, until he tried the other team. Is he an anomoly? Could he have stayed happy as a hetero if he hadn't experimented with same-sex?

Me, I'm ready to get rid of all the ugly Scouters. I'm tired of hanging out with a bunch a ugly mugs that only a mother could love. Yeah, that goes for the women, too.

Lisa,

The announcement was sort of in response to the petition that was delivered asking the BSA to change positions on homosexuals. Since the BSA accepted the petition, some took it as a sign that BSA was about to change. The BSA then made the announcement that they were not, in fact, changing. It was more of a clarification than anything.

"In my world, people whose personalitys allow them to think discrimination against other people is ok and/or that "tea party" politics is goos are unacceptable BSA leaders."

So Calico, when are you resigning from the BSA? That is, unless you are willing to let the local illegal drug dealers, prostitutes, gang members, mentally ill, pedophiles, alcoholics and porn stars be leaders in your Troop. You don't discriminate, right? Right... Of course, in your own sentence, you indicated that you discriminate against Tea Party members. You might try a little more bleach on your white robe.

Well, if that is your real goal, I suggest you become a Mormon and direct your efforts toward changing their view on homosexuality.

shortridge, the real question is why do you belong to a group that you feel is so immoral? Since BSA policies are so strongly against both your moral and religious values, how can you stand to be a member? Maybe your moral and religious values aren't that important to you? Maybe that is why you can't understand why our's are so important to us?

"Yet your morality and religious doctrine outweighs my morality and religious doctrine.

How is that right?"

Easy, First Amendment, the right to associate. BSA sets the standards. The standards are set, but some of you don't want to accept them.

shortride, one problem - your "mainline protestant" numbers include the huge decline in the Episcopal Church and Presbyterian USA church. Take those numbers out, and the amount of deline decreases significantly. Conservative churchs aren't losing members nearly as bad as liberal churches.

shortridge, I'm amazed at how you continue to fool yourself. None of what you wrote matters. What matters is which organizations are chartering the most units, and those organizations are conservative Christian. They hold sway at BSA national. It's like presidential candidates in the election - they are interested in winning the big electoral vote states. The big chartering organizations aren't changing anytime soon, and neither is the bible. When the huge majority of institutional heads and CORs are members of religious organizations, I don't see how you can just push aside the religious aspect of the program. Those IHs and CORs are the decision makers for the vast majority of BSA units. You don't think they are watching what is happening to liberal Christian churches, and they don't think the same thing would happen to the BSA? Would that be your argument before the BSA national board? Good luck with that.

North Carolina was a population vote, not a legislature. And I'm surprised you would even bring that up, since the only states that have gay marriage had it forced on them through the courts. No state has actually voted in favor of gay marriage. Every state that has put the vote to its citizens has voted against it.

If 30 states is cherry picking, then so be it. Believe what you want, but the BSA is watching other groups that have gone left, and all they see is failure. Look at the Episcopal Church and others that have followed their lead.

Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html

"Yet instead of attracting a younger, more open-minded demographic with these changes, the Episcopal Churchs dying has proceeded apace. Last week, while the churchs House of Bishops was approving a rite to bless same-sex unions, Episcopalian church attendance figures for 2000-10 circulated in the religion blogosphere. They showed something between a decline and a collapse: In the last decade, average Sunday attendance dropped 23 percent, and not a single Episcopal diocese in the country saw churchgoing increase."

"Practically every denomination Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian that has tried to adapt itself to contemporary liberal values has seen an Episcopal-style plunge in church attendance."

Is liberal Christianity signing its own death warrant?

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/19/12811129-is-liberal-christianity-signing-its-own-death-warrant?lite

"I see other mainline denominations that are fairly liberal, like the Presbyterians and the Methodists, just really being very careful about jumping over this hurdle," David Hein, Hood College historian and co-author of The Episcopalians, a history of the church, told NBC News, "because it really wreaks havoc with the denominations for the national headquarters on down, the institutions, the seminaries, the parishes when you start to lose huge numbers of members.

Is The Episcopal Church Near Collapse In America?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/cross-dressing-clergy-these-are-the-reasons-the-episcopal-church-could-be-near-collapse/

The accelerating fragmentation of the strife-torn Episcopal Church USA, writes Christian author Charlotte Allen, in which large parishes and entire dioceses are opting out of the church, isnt simply about gay bishops, the blessing of same-sex unions or the election of a woman as presiding bishop. It is about the meltdown of liberal Christianity.

Anyone here thinks the BSA wants to follow that model?

It's not going to happen anytime soon - as in 30 years. The folks in Irving are looking at national trends. North Carolina recently became the 30th state to pass an amendment to their state constitution banning same-sex marriage. It passed by a huge margin, and the other side actually thought they were going to win. Liberal Christian churches are losing members in droves. Where is the successful business plan that would encourage the BSA to make this change?

Go back in this forum and you will find posts where people predicted the change in 5 years made 8 - 10 years ago.

Most of the guys in our Crew run cross-country, swim, play soccer, run track, mountain bike - they are very active. And tall. Check out our picture, in the local paper. I'm 6' tall - remember that when looking at the height of the rest of crew compared to me.

http://www.thecrier.net/news/image_f4095b18-d017-11e1-a6fc-0019bb2963f4.html

We like to say "Boy run does not mean boy-run-off-the-tracks!" :-) I'll counter Josh's statement about adults not liking NSPs with: Troops that use NSPs generally do so because they don't have strong, developed Patrols who can handle brand new Scouts; the Patrols don't have the skills nor the leadership development to teach T-2-1 to the new Scouts. (I have no idea if that is true - I just threw that out as the other side of the coin)

We don't use NSPs because we believe Scouting is all about older boys teaching the younger boys. We like teacher to student ratios of 6 to 2, instead of 2 to 6. The whole Patrol has an interest in teaching the new Scouts.

Dean, from the situation in your original post, I would have assisted my son in sending a nice, short email to the PL. Something along the lines of "I am new to all this, and for this weekend's campout, I'm not sure about who is buying the food and who I'm tenting with, or if I need to bring a tent. Can you help me out?" Then see what happens. (You are also teaching your son to follow chain of command)

The best lessons for Scouts are when they see a NEED for something. Scouts can learn all about duty rosters, but until they have patrol members complaining about who has cooked and who has cleaned up, and "Johnny hasn't had KP all weekend!", they won't see the real NEED for one. They can learn all about knots, but until they see a NEED for a bowline or a taut-line hitch, they really won't learn them. Same thing with first aid. Use scenarios on camping trips (surprise scenarios are great) to teach first aid. Add a little fake blood and some moulage, and you have the recipe for a camping trip that will be discussed for a long time after they get home.

That safety net we provide is there so Scouts can learn lessons through experience and the need for them. Those lessons learned from need are much more likely to stick with them than lessons learned from just being told or instructed.

We got back from Woodruff today (Week #7, Campsite #2). We had a great week! It only rained at night, starting after 10:00 PM and ending before 6:00 AM, which was nice. We took 46 Scouts to camp - 6 Patrols, plus the adult Old Fogey Patrol. Cooked in camp, the boys are really starting to expand their menues. Thorns & Roses on Tuesday night revealed very little home sickness, good meals, and good staff. Two of our new Scouts were brutally honest that they spend all their time indoors, and they were having a little difficulty adjusting to the outdoors, but were loving camp. This was the 6th year at Summer Camp for our oldest Scouts - having them around makes camp much, much easier!

There were many more OOC Troops than there were in-council - from FL, MS, LA, AL, NC, TN. 11 new Scouts attended the Mountain Man program, which was run by a fellow CPR Instructor from a neighboring Troop. We won the camp-wide game (Grits Relay) for the second time in 2 years (Banana Relay last year). I must admit eating the raw grits was much better than the nasty banana. :-) Overall, a very fun and rewarding week at camp! We put down the deposit for next year, so we'll be back!

OGE, there were scales at the med-check, in the front room. I used them myself to see how much weight I might lose on the trip (10 lbs for those keeping score). None of our Crew were weighed, but none of us were even outside of the "Recommended Weight" category. I was probably the heaviest, at 188 lbs at 72". They did check blood pressure for all adults, and wanted to see any prescribed medication. I only saw one hiker there who I would call obese - and he was up there age-wise, as well. He stood out like a sore thumb, but he had just come over Hart Peak, a nice little 1,000' climb in the heat.

I was more amazed at some of the pack weights. We saw one kid weigh his pack at 45 lbs, and heard him say that was over half his body weight, which was 86 lbs. We saw a number of 50 lb + packs while hanging out in the Welcome center pavilion. Most appeared to be very proud of the heavy weight. I'm not sure what all they were carrying? Our Ranger, a Naval Academy student, told us his previous Crew was carrying too many clothes, and he tried to talk them out of it. He said they were giving clothes away at the first staffed camp they came to. Some learn the hard way.

TCD,

Once a Scout becomes inactive (missed 4 consecutive meetings/outings with no notification), he is no longer assigned to a Patrol. To regain Active status, he has to meet with me (SM) to discuss why he became inactive, and what he is going to do to prevent that from happening in the future. He can't just show up and be active again. He will have to be assigned to a Patrol again (SPL & SM make that decision) - he could go back in his old Patrol, or they may now be full. Hopefully the Scouts like their Patrol and want to stay in it - more incentive to stay active.

Once he is active, he can sign up for trips and activities again.

Peter,

Our's is a prepaid use-it or lose-it regardless of whether notification is given.

We have a few more Scouts who haven't been on a lot of trips this past year. I imagine there will be some soul searching from those parents as we approach August 1, 2012 as to whether they want to continue or not. We may well lose them, and while I regret that, I keep in mind that our program is focused on quality, not quantity. Having the Troop at this size is much harder work than when we were at 40 Scouts. I mean harder work on everyone - SPL, PLs, me, ASMs, pretty much everyone. So I have to weigh the downside of Scouts leaving vs. the quality of the program we could offer if we were smaller.

fred,

Thanks for playing devil's advocate - that helps to clarify policy.

And to clarify...

The reason we ask the Scout to notify if they are going to miss an event is because a Scout is Courteous. He needs to treat Scout events just like any other obligation he has committed to. If you can't make it, let them know. We use an online system, on our Troop web page, to register for outings and activities. Scouts can simply go on the web page to rsvp for those.

Our Scribe takes attendance from each Patrol during our opening. The PL lets the Scribe know who is there, who notified him they wouldn't be there, and who is in complete uniform. The Scribe gives me his report when it is completed.

Yes, the Scout "resets" the 4-meeting clock if he notifies us, and I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with boys I don't hear anything from them for weeks on end. We haven't had the situation you describe happen, but if it does, I imagine I would contact the Scout and have a little discussion and find out what is going on.

The Patrol Method is critical to the operation of our program. When Scouts are absent, it's like trying to play baseball with 6 players vs. 9. It is important for them to be there to support their Patrol mates.

As a side note, I tell the parents and Scouts that homework is not an excuse. Who gives me the right to make that statement? The parents! If their son has a baseball game or practice on a weeknight, he will not miss it - he will find a way to go to baseball and get his homework done. But if he has Scouts and homework, suddenly he can't do both. I don't win on this one all the time, but I make parents see the dual standard they have, and make them think about the importance of Scouts vs. baseball.

In August, 2011, we went to a pay-in-advance dues plan. On August 1, Scouts will pay $80 in regular dues (covers registration, Boys Life, awards, misc.) and $175 camping fees, which cover 9 monthly trips (we exclude Feb. since it is usually some special trip over a long weekend). The camping fees are like a sports team fee - you miss a game/trip, you don't get a refund. There are two benefits to this approach - the Scout and his parents have more incentive to participate (they have already paid for it) and the PLC now has a budget they have to work with when planning trips. We offer a financial assistance plan for families that need it. Our parents love it - they like the idea of writing only one check and being done with it. It takes a huge load of our Treasurer (and me, as well).

Membership - if a Scout has a long term conflict and he notifies us with the start and end date, he is good to go with the Troop, and would not be removed from the roster during recharter. I strongly encourage the boys to participate in other activities - they bring those strengths to the Troop and make us better. We are looking for ways to help the boys succeed, not flush them out, but we also want to let them know the level of participation we expect.

We have had some leave, and when they do, I tell them the door is always open if they want to come back. We had two leave recently, both due to sports - they play on multiple baseball teams, travel teams, etc. in spring, summer and fall. They wouldn't be interested in playing on some ad hoc baseball team where players show up randomly - they are on high level teams where attendance is pretty much mandatory, or you don't play. Many of our Scouts are looking for the same high level of participation in Scouting. They want their Patrol mates to really be "in" to the program, wanting to get the most out of it. Those are the Scouts we are looking for, and we aren't shy about letting that be known. There are 4 Troops on Mt. Vernon Rd, running through Dunwoody, all with a few miles of each other. If our program is too demanding for a Scout and his family, there are 3 other Troops right down the road he can join.

We have a vision for our Troop, articulated by Green Bar Bill way back in 1936: "The Troop we organize here must be one of the finest and most active Troops ever started. It must measure up with the best Troops in the Council. Every Scout in it must be right on the job all of the time to be the best kind of Scout he can."

So far, we have been pretty successful. We are nearly 5 years old as a Troop, started in 9/07 with 6 Scouts. We are now at 57. We have 8 rising Juniors that are the backbone of the Troop. Most of them are heading out to Philmont this Saturday, and will complete their High Adventure Triple Crown on that trek. We just had 4 Scouts attend NYLT, bringing us up to 12 Scouts in the Troop who have completed that course. Those 4 Scouts are also now at Sea Base, part of two Crews we have down there right now. Five of those eight rising Juniors will be at Summer Camp for their 5th or 6th year. Of the other 3, two are missing because they were invited to attend the 4-week Governor's Honors program (really big deal) and the other will be on a mission trip to Costa Rica. We have plenty of issues, just like any other Troop, but we have a pretty clear vision and we are constantly tweaking the program to achieve that vision.

I believe you judge a Troop by the older boys in the program. Most Troops these days are middle school programs, with very few high schoolers, and even fewer active high schoolers. I think the program can still be appealing to high schoolers, but only if the adults step back give the older boys ownership of the Troop, and they take advantage of the High Adventure programs. These past 5 years have not been easy, or a bed of roses. The learning curve has been steep at points, and it still remains to be seen what happens as these older boys (my son being one) start to age out. I hope the example they have set will live on long after they have headed off to college. I remind them that they have the unique opportunity and responsibility of creating a legacy for their Troop.

(edited for spelling)(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Wow. Talk about getting wrapped around the axel! I've read and heard about enough of these situations that we took action with our Troop to hopefully never end up in this boat.

Beavah quoted our standard, taken from GBB: The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings and outings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout "Prepared." If we put our own time into the activities of this Troop, we shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness. At Troop 494, Scouting is a way of life, not just an activity.

When the new G2A came out, we created a definition of Active (or maybe I should say Inactive). If a Scout misses 4 consecutive meetings/activities/outings with no notification to his PL or the SM, he will be considered Inactive. Inactive Scouts will not be assigned to a Patrol. To regain Active status, he will need to meet with the SM to discuss the circumstances that lead to him becoming Inactive, and what he is going to do to prevent that from happening in the future.

If a Scout has a long-term conflict (sports season) with Troop activities, he needs to notify his PL, the SPL and SM. The Scout will not be able to hold a POR during his absence.

I'm not big on making policy, but I'd rather do that than deal with the circumstances many Troops are facing. The Scout in the OP would have either been participating in our program, or he would have been left off our Troop roster at recharter.

B-P said you don't have a Boy Scout Troop if you don't have the Patrol Method. Extend that to, how can a boy be a Scout if he isn't participating in the Patrol Method? Forget about advancement requirements - have some standards for your Troop! If all it takes to be a member of your Troop is paying dues and showing up very occassionally, then how can you really expect much more? Set a high bar and take pride in the boys when they exceed it!

This is what most of the members of our Troop use. They work great and are very light. They sell them at REI. Figuring out the size you need will be the hard part. Nothing worse than a wet sleeping bag.

http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/1

We are on Trek 28, which is kind of 26 in the opposite direction, with different camps. 83 miles, starting at Zastrow and ending at Six Mile Gate. South to north. Crew 612.

Camps:

Rimrock Park

Urraca

Miners Park (side hike Tooth of Time)

Clarks Fork

Devils Wash Basin

Santa Claus

Ewells Park (layover, hike Baldy)

Flume Canyon

Indian Writings

We are heading out a few days early, to do some of the typical site seeing - Air Force Academy, Pikes Peak, Garden of the Gods, Sky Sox baseball game. We were also lucky enough to time the trip to see a concert at Red Rocks - Big Head Todd & The Monsters with The Barenaked Ladies. The boys will be working on their Music Merit Badge. :-)

We use a trailer, for several reasons. #1. We don't have anywhere else to store gear. #2. The church lets us use the 2 14-passenger vans they have, which keeps the number of vehicles we need on trips down to a minimum. I usually haul it with my Sequoia, which also hauls 8 passengers. On a typical trip, we will take both church vans, my Sequoia and another mini van. The trailer hauls all the backpacks. Works for us. And we believe in going light. #3. We do our own cooking in camp at Summer Camp, so we usually take two trailers - one hauling Patrol equipment and food, and the other taking the Scout's foot lockers.

Wow, Basement - our "rich" Troop program costs the same as yours. We have $80 dues, $175 camping fee that covers trips except for Summer Camp, and Summer Camp fee of $275. That totals $530. High Adventure is extra, if the Scout attends.

We raise funds. Some goes towards equipment, some goes to scholarships. We have some needy Scouts in the Troop, single-parent families with employment problems. We offer scholarships based on income and family size. We use the HUD low-and-moderate income numbers to offer assistance at either the 40%, 60% or 80% level (moderate, low, and very low income). A Scout that comes from a family in the very low income category will have 80% of all costs paid for by the Troop. That includes High Adventure.

Our unit also contributes a lot to FOS. This year, we had over 80% of our families participate in FOS, with a total of just over $10,000 contributed. That is a lot of $150 Summer Camp camperships our Council can offer to needy Scouts for Summer Camp.

Our Scouts also sold over $11,000 worth of popcorn.

Some are glad to write checks, others take advantage of the fundraising opportunities. Doesn't matter to me.