83_Eagle_T148

If a scout from this young man's council is reading this post, might I suggest you click on the below link, and have the attached application completed.

Honor Medal

Awarded to a youth member or adult leader who demonstrates unusual heroism and skill in saving or attempting to save a life at considerable risk to his or her own. In cases of exceptional skill or resourcefulness and extreme risk of life, the medal is awarded with crossed palms.

If you feel you know of someone deserving, then click here to download a nomination form. Self-nomination automatically disqualifies a candidate.

http://hoac-bsa.org/ae_links/lifesaving_meritorious_action_award.pdf83_

Hero's never see themselves for what they are. However, even after vanishing into the obscurity of the fog, their acts can have a lasting impact on the lives of others.

Doh! I'm guilty of 5 and 7. I think it's a Commissioner thing

Nick, your post is well worded, and puts forward some interesting ideas. However, swimming is a critical outdoor skill. The scouting program brings young men in contact with water, and that poses a concern. "Being prepared" for what might happen when near water is a must!

Swimming is also about facing fears, and overcoming them. Rare is a person who saw water for the first time and confidently jumped in and swam. The core requirements for advancement are also about personal growth, and confidence building.

I struggled with swimming, as a young man, my fears mastering me. My first year at camp I was a "non-swimmer", and as a non-swimmer was required to attend daily swimming lessons. By the end of that first year I could swam, but my fear prevented me from going in water over my head.

When I came back for my second year of camp, and was told to line up in the area I desired to test for, I went to beginner. The aquatics director held me back, and after the testing was done, he moved me down to swimmer, and said "swim", when I froze, he gave me a nudge - right into to pool, lol.

You guessed it, I swam, and my fear was gone. I walked away a very proud and confident scout, and earned my BSA Lifeguard before the summer's end. I think swimming belongs just where it is.

BTW, we need more new ideas, so keep them coming.

I see the benefits of doing things both ways. When I was a Commissioner in NC, I had three units, with one chartered organization, a pack, a troop, and a post. Having these three units, with the same sponsor, allowed me to develop an exceptional relationship with the Chartered Organization.

I've also seen where a Commissioner can become a true program expert by having all of his, or her, units be the same type. Honestly, I'm not sure there is a wrong answer here.

Very good ideas here. I was shocked at the adult to youth ratio at our Winter Banquet. This appears a growing issue.

The only thing I can add besides concern, is when service work is being done, make it fun!

Salza is a zealot, looking for any perceived impurity, with a desire to cleanse the world of anything that makes him feel threatened. The first thing to know about this type is that he is insecure in his own faith, something I do not see in the posts of my many devout brothers. The second thing to know is that Salza is trying to gain trust and notoriety, using his Geraldo like inquisition to rise from obscurity.

Guys like Salza are dangerous, and have little concern for the truth, only the drama they can create, and the people they can manipulate. Salza is cast in the mold of those who have murdered millions of innocents throughout history, a potential Jim Jones. He's a crack pot, but a dangerous one. This type can do great harm, as some will believe what he says, regardless of the facts.

What you describe is not new, I've seen it many times, and went through it myself as a youth member. I agree completely that any scout first duty is to his unit, so does the OA, it's even in the ordeal ceremony. The OA program is not the issue, just a symptom.

Consider that a traditional troop has youth members ranging in age from ten to eighteen years of age. The program for a ten year old is very different than the program for a seventeen year old. It is difficult for a troop to retain boys fifteen and up. Many of these older boys want to focus on, and explore, aspects of scouting more aligned with their age group. Frankly, the AO increases retention on older boys, but this is not it's purpose.

What these older boys need is Venture and/or Explorer type programs. In the end, the AO, Camp Staff, ect., will only delay them dropping out for so long. These boys need program for the correct age group. Also, keep in mind, some of this boys may be looking for non-high adventure program for older boys.

Thanks for the information Brent. I'm returning after a long break and still trying to catch up with all the changes. It sounds like things are moving in a positive direction, although I'm sorry to hear about your church's decision Buffalo Skipper.

Thanks for the information Brent. I'm returning after a long break and still trying to catch up with all the changes. It sounds like things are moving in a positive direction, although I'm sorry to hear about your church's decision Buffalo Skipper.

Thank you for the nod John-in-KC. Although I'm neither as wise, nor as old as many here, I like to think I have a good moment now and again.

Like any issue, there are two sides to this issue, both have merit.

I was given the Vigil Honor in 1985,, and am both proud of this honor, and mindful of the obligation that comes with it. Rest assured, nothing I say here is intended to be derogatory of those who have been given this honor.

Why we should have different flaps:

1. The desire to obtain the new flap can encourage arrowmen to complete The Brotherhood.

2. The desire to obtain the new flap can encourage arrowmen to put into practice the behavior, and acquire the habits, they perceive as hallmarks of The Vigil Honor.

3. Various flaps can serve as a reminder to the wearer of the additional obligations they have taken, and what is now expected of them.

4. Various flaps can encourage an interest in patch collecting, and through this activity the collector will learn the history, and purpose, of his lodge, and the order.

5. Various flaps allow new members who have not completed The Brotherhood to be easily recognized, so they may be encouraged to take the next step.

6. Various flaps allow new members to recognize who is likely best to go to with questions, and concerns.

Why should we not have different flaps:

1. Each arrowman is equal, The Order of the Arrow was never intended to have ranks.

2. To remove status symbols, and prevent members from seeking further commitment for the wrong reasons.

3. As a show of unity.

4. To prevent elitist groups and attitudes.

5. The flaps purpose is to demonstrate membership in an Order of the Arrow Lodge, there are not multiple lodges in one area, like in the Masonic structure.

6. The Vigil Honor is an award, but there are other ways to recognize those who have been given The Vigil Honor.

For the record, I have belonged to three lodges. The lodge I was inducted in did not have multiple flaps until several years after my induction; I always wore the flap I was given when I was inducted. The second lodge I was in did have varied flaps, I wore the ordeal flap, although I was a Vigil Honor member. The third lodge I belonged to, my current one, offered a dazzling array of various flaps.

Let me tell a brief story here, it explains my stance. This is a true story.

I became active in the order again because of a young man, n employee of mine, who was excited because he was selected for the OA. He knew I was inactive, and in then hope it would spark my interest he brought me an Ordeal Flap, one of the two he was allowed until he completed his Brotherhood. We talked about his experience on the Ordeal, and I was thrilled by his gift. When the young man learned I was Vigil, he was dejected, saying the gift was below my station. Although I assured him all Arrowmen were equal, he said that was not true, and that he knew I would not wear the flap. Although it was several years before I again became active in the Order, and I lost track of my young friend, I sewed his Ordeal flap on my shirt and wore it until we moved to one lodge flap. The flap he gave me is now in a frame, hanging over The Vigil certificate, on my office wall.

Very nice, did you do that adaptation? I'm glad to see spirituality continue as a key element of scouting, and hope we, as a group, will also foster better relations in the various religious communities. One of the strengths of this movement is that we do focus on spirituality, but not exclusively of one belief system. On that note I wonder why we continue to call this event "Scout Sunday", when some of the belief systems ,that have recognized religious awards that can be earned as part of the program, celebrate the Sabbath on other days. Would "Scout Spirituality Week" not be a better way to celebrate, and extend this celebration to a full seven days?

QuekolisChief

Take a look at my reply to your on the loops, you'll find what you need there.

Go to a lodge officer, he will help you. In as far as OA handbooks being sold without proof of membership, that needs stopped. I suggest the poster who is aware of what scout shop is doing this let his lodge adviser and SE know about this issue.

John in KC, I would have liked your post just for the Sherman T. Potter quote, but I think you have the right of it. This should be about what the boy feels, if wearing his OA sash on Scout Sunday makes the day, or his service, even a little more special, let him.

We spend far to much time splitting hairs on policy issues, this time would be better spent on program. Although I understand the reason of policy, and it this case I think wearing the OA sash on scout Sunday is within policy, sometimes you have to say "Horsehockey".

I can remember when our OA section adviser was grooming his replacement, having reached the point of no longer being able to physically travel. The new guy was just a few years out of the USMC, a real fire eater. He spent inordinate amounts to time busting our behinds, us being to section officers, over silly little uniform issues. Having reached the breaking point, all of us officers showed up for the Conclave business meetings with every insignia perfectly placed, and spaced, on our pressed and starched Hawaiian shirts ... it was the first time I saw the guy crack a smile. Ends up the young fire eater had a great sense of humor, and was a great guy.

I've been down this road. When I was a youth member my lodge did not have chapters, but did have two vice-chiefs, one for each district of the council. The lodge vice chiefs did serve on the district committee for his district, like you do as a chapter chief. There was no such thing as a vice chief office patch at that time. What I did, which passed muster back then, was wear the district committee office patch, with silver loops. I did remove my unit numbers from my shirt. I had another uniform shirt that I did not change, that I wore when not acting in my capacity as lodge vice chief.

Strictly speaking, you are registered to a unit, this is your primary registration, and your loops should match. However, OA chiefs serve on a committee matching the level of their office, and it is a long standing tradition to wear the matching loops. I still have my gold loops from when I was section chief.

So long as you wear the correct uniform when with your unit, and the DE is ok with it, what I did should work for you.

Welcome, drag over a virtual stump, the coffee is almost ready.

A staffer from my course has since left me a message stating that the staff decided it was a good idea to make the 360 a mandatory ticket item, and the syllabus didn't actually prohibit them from doing that. Any thoughts about that?

I have two comments on this one:

1. Making an item the syllabus lists as optional mandatory is altering the course, in an unintended way. This is an optional item, make it optional.

2. This item could have elements that would sour the training, making what should be a profound experience, and negative one.

There are several ways to offer the 360, but not force it.

Actually, I just recently reread my OA Handbook (admittedly new the latest edition) and found it interesting that wear of the sash, based on the OA handbook, can include Courts of Honor. I'm not at home or I'd provide the publication date and page number.

Wear of the OA sash with the merit badge sash is never ok, and neither sash is ever to be work on the belt. Frankly, I would think the merit badge sash more appropriate for courts of honor. However on the special occasion of an Eagle Court of Honor I could see the young man wearing whatever sash he chooses.

I could see Scout Sunday as an occasion that wearing the mark of unselfish service might fit in. I've never seen any policy, or mention, regarding wear of the OA sash on on Scout Sunday.

I've seen the pin on ebay as well, this is a geat idea.

BadenP, I'm not making a decision for anyone, merely expressing my opinion. My opinion means no more or less than that of anyone else.

The point I'm trying to make is twofold:

1. Each youth controls the time line of his scouting progress by the measure of his efforts and the degree of his devotion.

2. Youth Eagle Scouts stand upon a pedestal, whether they like it or not, and immediately become the role model for other youth. When an Eagle Scout turns 18 he needs to step away from that spotlight, allowing others to stand as the example for young men closer to their own age.

By no means do I suggest adults should be less proud, fade away, or be less of a leader, just a different type of leader. I wear my the red, white, and blue, with pride and humility, nearly three decades after earning eagle scout. However, I stand behind those who have came after, ready to lend a steadying hand or word.

The badge and medal are trinkets, trophies, in a game. It is what the game makes of us that is enduring.

I only hope that those who stand in the lime light today will be there for those that come after.

1. I'm not in favor of this idea

2. I am an Eagle Scout, class of 1983

If a youth wants to wear the youth Eagle Scout insignia longer he should but his lazy rump in gear. I Earned my eagle in 1983, I was fifteen. I was the first eagle from my troop, which was not a young troop - we were far from an eagle machine. The path to eagle is difficult, as it should be, but does not take eight years if the candidate is focused and on the ball.

An adult leader who is an eagle is an inspiration to the youth, but should not be who the boys look to for leadership - this is why the subtle square knot.

As I read this thread I chuckled plenty! Man were we glad to be rid of those shirts ... and, honestly, the neckerchiefs. Old memories aside, I can see the place of a collarless shirt in the BSA wardrobe.

For the time being you might try tucking your collar under, thus creating a clean neck line, while wearing a neckerchief.

This is a sticky issue. Where to start is narrowing down the question. Are you asking about the requirement of class "A"uniforms for a board of review; what the BSA official uniform is; or advice on your unit's uniform policy?

I won't attempt to tackle this issue without it being more narrowly defined. What I will say is that the Senior Patrol Leader is the leader of the troop, and should set the example for all the other scouts. By the way, it is unquestionable that adult leaders, especially the Scout Master, and Eagle Scout himself, should be positive role models.

It seems to me that bringing this concern up, diplomatically, at the next troop committee meeting would be a good first step. If you're uncomfortable with this, talk to your Unit Commissioner first.