EmberMike

10 hours ago, qwazse said:

But have you heard of any admissions office selecting those students over students with single activities over a wider diversity of categories?

My kids got their first-choice college acceptance with one sport and some music (or five sports and no music), one scouting organization, religious life, and strong academics. The one who got a full scholarship did not earn a scouting award. The Eagles did not get a single scholarship.

Colleges ain't stupid. They know how naked the emperor is.

Admissions offices aren't likely to ever tell anyone outside of the office why they chose one kid over another. So it's kind of hard to say for sure. But it must be beneficial to some kids to hit multiple activities in the same category. Or some reason why guidance counselors advise kids to do that. 

You're right, colleges aren't stupid, and I'm sure they see right through the easy overlaps in activities. Maybe those overlaps count less, but they still have to count for something or why would anyone bother? I suspect maybe the logic is something along the lines of "I earned this one prestigious scouting award, and I'm such a wonderful kid that I went and got this other prestigious scouting award too." 

So for some reason it only just occurred to me that I had the Eagle badge on my uniform and wore it while 18. I think it was just the last 3 months of high school, so we're talking about the occasional troop meeting and maybe a camping trip. And then to my brother's COH a few months after that. In my defense, I had no idea about the rule, and had someone told me, I would have immediately brought my uniform up to code.

I kind of like the idea of including the square knot in the Eagle kit for a COH. Sometimes maybe it seems like Eagle is the end of the road for the older scouts, especially those who Eagle close to 18. But that square knot could serve as a sort of invitation to come back and stick with it into adulthood. 

At the very least, it would have let a scout like me know that once you hit 18, it's off with the rank badge and on with the square knot. 

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

There's no college worth going to that would care about someone who has two of the same thing. Especially, if the effort in one could be used toward completing the other.

Really? Then why do colleges care about kids doing multiple things in the same category of activities?

They know the star running back is already fast, he doesn't need to do spring track to prove it. But he does anyway. 

How many different things can a band kid join? Wind ensemble, jazz band, marching band, concert band, etc. It's all the same, playing an instrument, but just more of it. 

Maybe scouting is entering that phase of things, for better or for worse. I had heard of a kid a few years ago in BPSA and BSA who wanted to earn the George Washington's Scout Award and Eagle Scout. 

Multiple clubs, multiple sports, and now multiple scouting orgs. 

I think every scout probably has had a part of the program they struggled with or were just weren't as good at, even if they did get through the requirements. I also hope people don't look at the Eagle Scout badge as some sort of confirmation that anyone who wears it is highly proficient in each and every task associated with the rank. Especially many years after those merit badges were earned.  

It also looks very set up for the reality show. Did they have to cook eggs in a zip-lock bag? They're in a full kitchen. I'm guessing the producers asked them to do some camp cooking and intentionally not take advantage of the tools and equipment around them. 

57 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

Didn’t @NealOnWheels post it’s not in the 2017 Guide to Safe Scouting?

Ahh.. I see now. 

Yea, that seems kind of weird. 

20 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

I’m saying they might’ve realized that there may not be a hook or way to attach a blanket to divide the room up. 

Sorry, I'm still not following... 

Are you saying that National doesn't expect us to abide by the divided room policy anymore? Just seems surprising if true, that they would just turn a blind eye to this and give up on the privacy rule in cabin situations. 

25 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Simple answer: over the years BSA has crafted its advancement requirements so that much of their completion is contingent on homage to the BSA. (E.g., Boy Scout camping nights.) So, no, transferring "credit" would be an exersize in futility...

 

A lot of the requirements (especially in the early ranks) are skills-based, and could certainly match up well with similar learning in other programs. A good chunk of the First Class reqs are very easily applicable to any scout in any organization. Even if you rule out the "Since joining Boy Scouts..." type of requirements, the bulk of the rest of them cover things like cooking, knots, nature, map & compass, swimming, and first aid, all of which are sort of universal scout skills learned in many other programs. 

I'm not a council rep so I can't speak to what they would do when presented with this kind of thing. But at a glance, I suspect a lot of requirements could be checked off for someone coming to the US from another similar scouting program. 

1 minute ago, ItsBrian said:

National probably realized it’s not always possible to hang a blanket or something like that.

What are you saying? This isn't a rule anymore? I haven't heard that...

4 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

If anything, his reputation would be ruined.

Will it? Among who, the leaders and parents in the unit who will all likely know what happened and that it wasn't a big deal?

What about the reputation of the unit itself if a YPT violation is not reported? I wouldn't want to be the pack/troop that is known for being lax on YPT policy. 

On 12/21/2017 at 9:48 AM, WisconsinMomma said:

...Of course, missing a goal is a huge lesson, but I'm curious how often this happens, and what you think about letting kids fail...

 

It's certainly not a failure to be a scout but not reach Eagle. I think sometimes it gets equated to "failure" or "not finishing" if someone doesn't earn Eagle, but from an achievement perspective it's still years of work, commitment, and effort required just to be a scout at all. If a kid joins in 1st grade and is active into high school but doesn't reach Eagle, that's still a decade-long effort in a fantastic youth leadership organization. 

If it's a question of documenting participation in something (Johnny should finish Eagle so he can put it on his college application) a kid can (and should) still put scouting on that application form, no matter what rank they reached. I think it still is way more impressive than joining a club in high school for a year just to have something else to show on the "extra curricular activities" page. 

From a purely personal achievement perspective, there might be some regret in the future about not earning Eagle. But that's life. Lesson learned. I don't think there's anything wrong with some parental encouragement. Lord knows I needed some when I was 17 and could have very easily not finished up those last 2 merit badges and the project. But there's a big difference between providing encouragement to a scout that might just be in a motivational rut at the time, and forcing a scout to go further when they have zero desire to do so. 

It's a violation and has to be reported. It sucks, because it seems pretty clear that this guy had zero ill intention and it was just a moment of desperation in the middle of the night trying to get some sleep. 

But we can't pick and choose when to follow the rules and when not to, especially when it comes to YPT. 

Do a Google Image search for "scout uniform display" or something similar and you'll find tons of ideas for displaying an old uniform and badges. 

Just my 2¢, if you want to display the whole shirt, you need a pretty big frame for that. And depending on how much space you have in your home/office/room where you want to display it, these frames can end up taking up some serious wall space. Especially if you find any other memorabilia that you want to add to it. I've seen frames that include everything, Cub and BS uniforms, books, even pinewood derby cars. In my opinion, it's a bit much. And I think a lot of times those giant frames are gifted to young adults by their parents who dig all of that stuff out of the closet while Jr. is away at college. Except how many 20-somethings want a 4-foot by 4-foot by 4" deep frame of all of that stuff. 

Before you decide what to do with your uniform, maybe just consider where it will end up after it is framed or preserved, and choose options that best fit your desired wall space and display area. 

6 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Actually, no Crew members cannot count work done unless they were currently registered as Scout. So those young women cannot transfer that effort (with a few very specific exceptions). Once they are allowed to join a Troop any work done in one organziation counts toward the other, with the exception of Eagle/Summit projects.

 

What I was getting at was that if a female crew member, who previously could not join a troop and work towards Eagle, now wants to do that since the rules changed, I would encourage them to do the same as Sydney. Join a troop, work towards Eagle, and if they don't have enough time to finish, apply for the extension or petition the BSA to let them start now. 

There is nothing that I'm advocating for Sydney that I wouldn't also advocate for when it comes to any female scout who wants to work toward Eagle Scout rank. 

1 hour ago, HelpfulTracks said:

...I am much more comfortable giving credit for very specific requirements and then only with some level of validation.

 

As I understand the policy, that seems to be how it's supposed to work. It is certainly how I think it should work. 

In theory, take the handbook for the other organization and put it next to the BSA handbook, and match up requirements. If they seem to be the same requirements, check them off one by one. 

Of course that ultimately will be open to some interpretation, which I think the council review part of the process should be able to sort out. 

12 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

I note she was "briefly" a Scout in South Africa.  Really gets around.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Not sure what you're implying here, but I hope it has something to do with this topic. Surely her being in the fortunate position of coming from a family that has the means to travel a lot is not a bad thing, or definitely not something that should be held against her in this discussion, right? 

12 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

...So why on earth would we be willing to count "un-official" work done as an "un-official member" before we would count official work done as a member of BSA in a Crew? Why would we be willing to accept work done in another Scouting association before we would be willing to accept work done in our own?

The ever growing drumbeat to cut Miss Ireland a break because she has worked so hard, seems to be very misplaced, when you consider the thousands of young women Venturing who have worked just as hard, who have supported BSA and have done so with trying to give the organization a public relations black eye.

 

Do those crew members want to work toward Eagle? If they do, I'd encourage them to do the same Sydney and see if there is a path for them to do so. 

For the record, I don't advocate for her being given direct credit for work/requirements done un-officially. I support her being given requirement/rank transfer credit for things done in Scouts Canada officially, same as any boy could potentially receive. 

I strongly disagree that she was trying to give the BSA a "public relations black eye." Just because you disagree with her viewpoint (one that clearly many in the BSA happen to agree, myself included), publicly voicing that viewpoint doesn't mean she was intentionally trying to harm the BSA. I think she did what we encourage all of our kids to do; Stand up for what you think is right, speak up if you feel something is unjust. 

2 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Quite different requirements.  E.G.  Lack the required MBs. No POR requirement. Does no require Life, which is quite different than Pathfinder.

Example of credit given?  I really did try to find one.  My Googlefoo failed.

Can we at least agree that there is crossover in subject matter? Leadership, athletics, outdoor skills, family life, personal development, environment, citizenship, first aid, service hours, etc. Getting the Chief Scout's Award hits a lot of the checkboxes for BSA reqs. It's different, sure. But having it would likely qualify someone who joined the BSA to cross off at least a few requirements. 

I don't know of a specific example of the credit being given. But it's in the advancement committee policies, so it can happen. I suspect it's open to a bit of interpretation by whichever local council rep gets the task of trying to figure out which requirement from another scouting org translates to which requirement in a BSA book. 

I did, however, find an article about Sydney Ireland which states that she is counting on her past experience to count for something as a BSA member. So that at least confirms that she will be seeking credit for previous achievements. 

The BSA and Lucasfilm both seem to be betting on the future rather than the past. Big risk, potentially big reward. And yes, even for Star Wars it's a risk, the franchise isn't invincible. There was already talk of people getting burned out on Star Wars before Last Jedi opened. 

Both organizations know that in order to endure in future generations, they need to figure out who their best audience will be, and not just play to the past and present audience. Both do seem to be forging ahead with a plan to create new fans, even if that means old fans lose interest. 

4 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

The Chief Scout's  Award is an admirable achievement that is not comparable to Eagle...

...I  am having trouble finding where BSA gives "credit" to anyone for achieving their association's highest, or any other, rack.

It's a relevant award that bears many similar requirements a scout would go through on the trail to Eagle. It's not the same, for sure. But it's a service-oriented leadership and outdoor skills award that has requirements that would match well with some BSA requirements. 

Regarding the transfer of rank/requirements credit from a non-BSA organization, from the Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures book:

"A youth from another country who either temporarily resides in, or has moved permanently to, the United States may join a BSA unit and participate in the BSA advancement program. He must present to the council service center available evidence of membership and advancement level from his previous association. Having done this, he then must appear before the district or council advancement committee with at least one member of the receiving unit committee present to review his previous advancement work and to determine which BSA rank he is qualified to receive. This policy applies to all ranks except Eagle Scout. The BSA rank of Eagle Scout cannot automatically be considered the equivalent of another associations highest rank. A Boy Scout who holds his associations highest rank could qualify for the rank of Life Scout, and the district or council advancement committee should prescribe certain merit badges for him to earn before consideration for the rank of Eagle Scout. He must also fulfill all other requirements for the rank of Eagle Scout.

This policy also applies to members of the BSA who, while living abroad, have earned advancement in another Scouting association."

15 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Male Lone Scouts couldn't grandfather in previous experiences...

I've been trying to dig up more info on this but I'm coming up mostly empty.

What's confusing is why previous experience outside of the US wouldn't count towards requirements as a Lone Scout, but can count towards requirements as a Pack/Troop member. The requirements don't change much or at all (especially at Troop level) for Lone Scouts. So in a hypothetical situation where a non-US transfer scout takes his previous experience to his council and asks for the same review of requirements that any other non-US transfer scout would ask for, the Lone Scout gets rejected while the Pack/Troop scout gets some requirements accepted? Is that accurate? 

53 minutes ago, Stosh said:

...Exceptions mentioned for males will NOW be available to females, but nothing says they will be grandfathered in...

It seems far more likely that they would be grandfathered in, though. You are right, nothing says that this will be the case. But I can't imagine why the BSA would say that only non-US scouting org experience beginning in 2019 would count for girls, while simultaneously still allowing the exact same experience from boys to count towards rank. 

If they're going to present this as an opportunity for girls to have the same scouting experience in the BSA that boys can have, it would be extremely odd to then put these kinds of added limitations on the girls program. 

If anyone has any concerns about exceptions for girls making it too easy for them, I would hope that this kind of "no grandfathering" policy would be just as concerning, recognizing that this would have the exact same effect in reverse by making it unfairly more difficult for transfer scouts who are female to pick up their scouting experience from another organization in the BSA. 

54 minutes ago, Stosh said:

...Males could not grandfather in Cub Scouts if they joined at 10 even if they had a book showing progress he had done independently on his own while homeschooling...

I do think that Sydney's BSA experience should be considered, but not for requirement credit. She doesn't need that anyway, she has comparable experience in Scouts Canada and the documented requirements she completed in that organization.

I don't care if she has a BSA handbook with sign-offs on requirements. It's irrelevant when she does have a Chief Scout's Award from Scouts Canada, officially and with proper credit and documentation that is acceptable in giving credit to male scouts who transfer from SC to BSA. 

The exception she needs and that I support her receiving is related only to time. Either time now, allowing her to start in the BSA officially before 2019, or time beyond 18 to finish up her Eagle, IF she is able to complete requirements and ranks OR receive transfer credit for them from acceptable experience in Scouts Canada. 

17 minutes ago, Back Pack said:

No. She has to start at Scout and work her way up. She has to abide by the same rules I did. She joins and earns Scout and then has to earn the other ranks. You can’t get credit for work before joining just like webelos and non scouts can’t get credit now. The requirements say “while a scout” which means a USA registered scout. If you bend the rules for her you need to bend them for everyone else. Why is she so special? 

That's not accurate. Credit can be given for requirements fulfilled in other scouting organizations. It doesn't have to be "while a USA registered scout." 

If they do it for boys, why not do it for her? Why is she so special to not get the same consideration any boy from a non-US scouting org would get? 

2 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Sounds accurate.

I want to believe that you're agreeing with me, but I'm suspicious.

It is accurate, though. She wouldn't be the first to get credit for previous scouting experience. 

The application for an extension states, "“If a youth foresees that, due to no fault or choice of his own, he will be unable to complete the Eagle Scout rank requirements before age 18, he may apply for a limited time extension."

Personally, I only know of two extensions given, one for medical (hospitalization) and one for something military-related.

From the Scouting Magazine website they list these as some considerations for extensions:

Hospital stay, disabling injury, significant employment conflict, relocation, family emergency, natural disaster, severe and/or unexpected weather, unforeseen actions of others. 

4 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

First, by it very nature this is unlike any exception ever give to a boy.

Second, I have seen exceptions for disabilities, and time lost for extreme medical conditions. I have heard for exceptions for time lost for kids coming from very abusive homes and extreme poverty, i.e. homeless.   Are you seriously comparing those exceptions to Miss Ireland's situation?!?

Extensions aren't granted exclusively for disabilities and abuse. Pretty convenient to only mention those exceptions to make your argument.