YoungBlood

janssenil,

I am glad that the kids felt that way and I would like to say congratulations on doing such a great job with them. I want to make sure however that my view is not misrepresented in this forum. I do not encourage the boys to ban females from the camping trips, I just support them in the decision. I know there are plenty of great leaders out there like you. I believe however, that there is a special and important bond and environment that can be created for boys in a male-only atmosphere. After all, most boys grow up in an educational system dominated by female influences. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing, I just believe it is very healthy to be surrounded by just the men every now and then. Boy Scouts seems like the perfect opportunity for the boys to create this atmosphere if they desire. This is the point I have tried very hard to make! I don't think I will be posting on this thread anymore since people feel compelled to either twist my words or bring completely false meanings to them. Once again, great job on the webelos den, just please try to understand where some teenage boys are coming from on this issue!

Others have stated far better than I could that male campouts aren't about chauvinism, just a desire to do guy things with guys. I can't imagine why this is so hard to understand.

Couldn't agree more!

I am saying that if you go down this path, it should be done with a lot of soul searching and introspection. You guys talk hypothetically. I am talking about my experience over a number of years with troops that had such "policies" in place. No one discussed the policy (if they knew what was good for them). The policy was not documented nor was their any vote of the boys, although I heard rumors to that effect. Instead, it was clearly the decision of the good old boys. This misogynist attitude was passed on to some of the scouts I worked with later.

That is a nice story but it doesn't do anything to prove your point. I would agree with you one hundred percent that it shouldn't be the good old boys decision. Nor should any troop create boys that show no respect for female leadership. Would you explain to me, how the boys in your troop still respect girls their age? or how they still respect people of no faith? or how they respect anybody the BSA excludes? Just because a troop excludes females from a part of the program doesn't automatically create female haters! There is seriously something wrong with a troop that does produce boys that think this way. Furthermore, the troop in your story, like you said, did not come to this policy through the boys. The boys should be allow to run their troop within reason and the scouting aims.

Hey, I am all for equal opportunities for men and women. However, I do not believe for one second that men and women are the same. Men in general have different strength and weakness than women. You are not there as just an ADULT; you are either a male or female adult. You cannot pretend for one second to understand the mind of a teenage boy since you have never been one! Once again, I don't believe that all troops should ban women from camping trips. I admit women can contribute greatly to the program. I also believe though, that male only camping trips under the boys request can also greatly contribute to the program. If the boys wish it and the troop has the male leadership than there is no way you can convince me that it is wrong. I even know plenty of female adult leaders in my past troop that feel the same as I do.

No need to reply, Rooster7 took care of it!

Our troop has women in several positions and offices. NEVER been a problem.

That is great! I have no problem with women being involved in scouting. However, I just feel as if the boys wished to have males only on camping trips then that should be their decision along with the CO to make. Had boys in my troop realized this was an option while I was in scouting we would have voted to do so. Of course there may have been a few boys who did not like the decision, but that is life! Those boys who wanted their moms have two options. They can either live with it or find a new troop. Either way it will only build character for them. A few moms may scream cries of discrimination, but I would argue that it isn't discrimination meant to be hateful. It is simply boys wanting to be with men once a month. If you still believe this is discrimination, please tell me why you support keeping girls out of the boy scouts?

I agree with OGE...There are no regulations on axes. 3/4 axe is probablly best for the littler guys but if you have big guys too then go for the full size deal.

I am assuming PADBALLS stands for:

Physical Fitness

Ability Groups

Discipline

Buddy System

Area, Safe Swim

Lifeguards on Duty

Lookouts

Supervision, Qualified(This message has been edited by YoungBlood)

"Sorry, thermodynamics really doesn't have much to do with evolution. However, if you want to stretch it, engergy is constanstly being added to the system by the sun. The sun's energy is absorbed by plants, animals eat the plants and gain energy."

Ahhhh thanks....you really cleared that up for me! Ok, that was sarcasm for those who aren't too good at picking up the online tones of postings! ;-)(This message has been edited by YoungBlood)

"Evolution comes about as life adapts to environmental changes"

I am certainly no expert in this field either. However, I do believe what you are talking about here is adaptation or Micro Evolution. That is a species may evolve over time to better fit its environments. For instance I believe there were some snakes that were believed to have legs but after time they were no longer born with these legs. After having x-rays they see that they still have little deformed legs inside of them that never developed. It is believed that the snakes were better off with out them. However, the issue I wish to address is Macro Evolution. Single cell organisms become multiple cell organisms, which become creatures, which evolve out of their species and so on. Now, saying this, how does the second law of thermodynamics fit in?

Ok, I am just throwing out a question here. I have been curious as to how evolutionist explain the fact that evolution seems to go againist the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The theory of Evolution cleary proposes that creatures are gaining energy becoming more complex and organized in time. So how does the law of entropy fit in here? I am sure you guys have an answer, maybe even a valid answer. I am just curious as to how you guys handle that.(This message has been edited by YoungBlood)

Sounds like this problem can be fixed rather easily. Tell the mothers to sign their boys up for the girl scouts if they don't like the boy scouts. :-)

"Maybe because its easier to pull a gun out and start shooting when you have no fear of return fire."

Let's take Montana for example, they have the most lax gun control laws of any state and yet they have one of the lowest crime rates.

We have 50+ kids in my troop.

"So what is inactive?"

With our current system, when giving inactive status you must meet with the scoutmaster and attend meetings regularly for three weeks. Untill you have done that, you will not be elligble to attend campouts or have your scoutmaster conference. We haven't had any problems yet with this system. No scouts have complained because they have all been told upfront and it is in our written bylaws. There really is no excuse to go inactive other than laziness. How hard is it to give your scoutmaster a call if you have other commitments?

Basically my troop had a policy that missing three meetings in a row without scoutmaster approval would make you inactive. I like this for two reasons. A) It gives a standard for the boys to meet and stops anyone from arguing the definition of being active! B) If you need to miss three meetings in a row, you can, as long as you at least stay active by explaining your situation to the troop leader.

"That being said, no youth organization should put such high expectations on a kid that he can't have a well rounded group of activities to participate in."

I couldn't disagree more! First of all, I think overcommitment is major problem with youths these days. Too many boys including myself will try to stretch themselves too thin. If you can't commit a good amount of time to a program then you shouldn't be in the program! Remember Eagle Scout is an award and honor that one should earn through actively particapating in the program. Now, I am not saying that you should never be allowed to miss meetings. I just believe that some sort of guideline should be established by the troops and that guideline should hold boys to a pretty active level.

"And discrimination of any sort rubs me the wrong way."

Why do you think this is disrimination? We don't allow girls to join BSA either. Do you think that is discrimination? Excluding somebody is not always discrimination.

"I think what you are saying is that whether the moms are there to "look over" you guys or not - you'd rather they not come 'cause you're trying to figure out who and where you are NOW and the moms kind of put a damper on things?"

Yes, this is a large part of my reasoning. I believe boys should learn to become more independent. Moms are generally seen as a comfort blanket. Whether you are seen or not for the whole camping trip you are still there. For instance, a person who wanted to truly experience wilderness survival would not bring matches. Even if the matches were for just in case...He would know that he had the matches and automatically be comforted.

"Maybe all you had the opportunity to know was the kind of mom who felt "roughing it" was a hotel without room service"

This isn't the case. I have met plenty of moms who probably have more outdoor experience then most guys. Come to think of it, one such female in our troop never went camping with us. She believed it was better for it to be just the guys. She was one the most active leaders in our troop and she never went camping with us(except for the occasional family camp trip).

Also, you mentioned if I felt this way as a younger boy too. Well to be honest, I never really wanted my mom to come camping with me. I don't have a bad mom, I love her to death and she is the greatest. However I never felt like I needed her nor wanted her to come hang out with my guy friends with me. I obvisouly can't say this to be true for all boys. I can say that the boys in my troop felt that way and nobody should have a problem if we limited trips to males only.

"When's the last time OA has come in to your troop to make a presentation? OA is not supposed to be a popularity contest."

Why I know this to be true, I find the hard part is convincing the boys in a troop to come to this realization. I know my troop was and is guilty of often times making it a popularity contest. Just telling the boys not to vote that way doesn't really seem to make a difference. Unfortunately, I don't really have a solution to this problem. Maybe somebody here does?

Well DrBeado, If excluding moms sends a negative message what about us excluding girls! Do you think that girls should be allowed to join? Perhaps you do, but that doesn't really matter. I don't think that excluding girls is telling the boys to discriminate nor do I think excluding female adults would tell them that either! Why is it acceptable for other groups to exclude people but not us? Do you think it is alright for Christians to have a Christian only club or Muslims to have a Muslim only club. What about women? Are they allowed to have an women only club? I have no problem with these groups having limited membership? I don't think they are discriminating either. Do you?

"Okay, if the issue is a matter of modesty, then we agree again. However, if the issue is - the boys want it to be a males only cluband again, I emphasize if it's the BOYS IDEA, then I think its acceptable. This assumes, as I've stated previously, the CO is willing and has the resources (enough adult males). It's their troop, and as long as it's a matter of building bonds between males and not bashing women, I see it as being legitimate."

Thank you, this is what I have been trying to get across through all of my postings. However, Rooster does a much better job of getting the point across than I do! I am no longer posting on this thread because most people refuse to see this point and automatically assume it is because we think women baby kids! No, I don't believe moms baby their kids anymore than the dads do! Look I am 18 year old guy that belonged to a troop that had moms camp on some trips. All I am saying is I like it when it is a male thing only. So does my troop for the most part. If the boys want it that way then I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

LauraT7, I never said moms shouldn't go because they baby their kids or hoover over them. In fact I would agree that men are just as guilty of it as women. However, this doesn't change my case or anybody elses case for having males only on trips. If you don't like the troops policy find another troop instead of insisting that it should be changed. Also, I am offended and frustrated that people keep bring this kinda nonsense into these conversations "(not neanderthals who talk only in sports lingo, act "macho" & are threatend by women on their turf - he gets enough of that crap from Dad)" So basically you believe that all males who want to spend time with just males are neanderthals? I say this because this is what you are applying and it is not a fair thing to say. I am none of those things you listed above and yet I wished my troop had allowed only males on it's camping trips. It is frustrating because I sit and think about what I am typing, trying to convey my thoughts the best I can, and I get this kinda response that has nothing to do with my case for Males on camping trips!

Mike F and Scoutparent, I couldn't agree more with you. I believe what both of you are saying is absolutely true.

Now Webelosmom, You said "2."What the boys want"? My son just wanted me to come along, maybe once. I

camped with him when he was a Cub and a Webelos. He wanted me to come

with him because he actually likes his mom around! (Yes, I'm sure it

will wear off soon, it's already starting to.)"

You just proved my point for me! You say he wants his mom around and it is already starting to wear off. He is a young scout in the troop and there are many older boys who already would like to get away from mom. While, your boy may not mind you being around plenty of other boys may and your boy will be one of them very shortly. Now, when I said the program was created for the boys I did not mean that it was boys only. I mean that the program was created to do what is in the best interest of the boys. In my opinion and as you see many other troops believe having males only on camping trips is the best thing. So, if you don't like it, find another troop. There are many troops out there and all of them differ in policy. So find a troop that fits your liking. But please don't think having males only on camping trips is a horrible thing, because it is not. I believe trying to change a troops policy like that would be wrong. They have their beliefs and I personally support them.

"About the "if that is what the boys want" stance --- sorry, not a good one."

Ummmm....Where did this come from? I never said let the boys have what they want. All I said is the boys in my troop would not want moms to be allowed on camping trips. Secondly, yeah let the boys have what they want as long as it is within good reason. Having only females on trips is not within good reason (unless you wanted to have a mother/son camping trip). Having only males on camping trips is within reason. Whether it is because they are more comfortable with men, because they just want to get away from their mothers, or because they want to have fun with guys(is having fun with only the guys wrong now?).(This message has been edited by YoungBlood)

"Another thread seems to be about bashing moms because some are outragous about camping. Lets talk about all parents. Weve all seen them and dealt with them. Perhaps we have been them at times. Those other parents."

First of all, it is not mom bashing! I have a mom too you know. I love her plenty, I just don't want her to go camping with my Boy Scout Troop. I am not applying moms are overprotective or are not good outdoorsman. All I am saying is if the troop has enough male leadership, then let them restrict camping trips to males if they choose so. You can read the "mom bashing post" if you really want to know why I feel this way. Secondly, I agree that overprotective parents are both moms and DADS!