Bob White

Alot depends on the altitude and temperature you will most often use your stove at as wellas who will be using it.

Personal I use an MSR Whisperlite. A white gas stove that is extremely lightweight. Its tripod design is prone to tipping so I use a Trillium base to stabilize it and it provides a a good platform on snow.

I honestly would not recommend white gas appliances for scouts however. If you read the Guide to safe Scouting and the BSA's policies on fuels, you will see that although white gas is allowed it has several storage and usage safety requirements.

For ease of operation, and safety, I would recommend a bottled propane stove for scouts. They are safer to refuel, safer to store and easy to operate (no prewarming the fuel line or burner head). They come with drawbacks though. Bottled propane is bulkier and slightly heavier to pack, fuel canisters lose pressure at high altitude and cold temperatures. There are also stoves that run on other materials such as unleaded gas, alcohol and butane.

Any way you go be sure you know and follow all related safty rules regarding the use of chemical fuels. It takes very little horse play to turn them from a tool to a timebomb.

Ask you local Roundtable to have a "stove night" where leaders bring in their various stoves and demonstrate their use and features. This should help in your shopping. It appears we have alot of camping talent on this forum. I'm sure others will post with their suggestions.

Happy Scouting,

Bob

NHScouter,

Although Den Chiefs are a great help in a den they do not count in the two deep leadership policy. The leaders refered to must be a least 18 years old with one of the adults present being 21 years old or older.

Lawyers? Lawyers?!! Ther are lawyers in this string?!! No wonder this has drawn on so long.

:-)

This is my final post in this string. I think I've made my point without the meandering that others have fallen into.

For years now the paragraph just above the signature line says that the undersigned agrees to the rules and policies of the BSA if you recent application did not have that paragraph it is possible that your unit is using old applications.

Tj I hope if you are an adult that you completed a membership application after you turned 18. If not, save yourself some time and don't. You would violate the character of scouting that you seem so determined to defend.

Doug,

You assume incorrectly.

I've served several years as a scoutmaster. I have never taken credit for the quality of the program beyond my role as the developer of boy leaders. I have always felt that the boys devloped and carried out the program hence "Boy" Scouts. I worked with the Assistant Scoutmasters, Committee Chair, Committee members, parents and the charter organization to see that the scouts had an opportunity for a true scouting experience. I never felt that I was more important than any other adult supporting the boys. If others felt I was, then I'm flattered. Did I spend the most time volunteering with the troop? Perhaps, but that is the role I agreed to take.

The flow chart you are so concerned over is only wrong by a squeek. It seems to ask the troop to try and settle the dispute in house before elevating it to the next level. however as in any appeal process, if the scout still feels he is not being dealt with fairly he can choose to go to the next level.

These appeals happen so rarely that this small error has no effect on the program. I guess I don't understand your concern.

Is it that you don't want the problem resolved in the unit level if possible?

Is it the ability of the scout to appeal advancement decisions?

Is it merely that the flow chart does not immediately send the scout to the next level, but gives the troop a chance to resolve the situation first?

Perhaps if you could clarify your primary concern I would understand better.

Thanks,

Bob

Doug,

You assume incorrectly.

I've served several years as a scoutmaster. I have never taken credit for the quality of the program beyond my role as the developer of boy leaders. I have always felt that the boys devloped and carried out the program hence "Boy" Scouts. I worked with the Assistant Scoutmasters, Committee Chair, Committee members, parents and the charter organization to see that the scouts had an opportunity for a true scouting experience. I never felt that I was more important than any other adult supporting the boys. If others felt I was, then I'm flattered. Did I spend the most time volunteering with the troop? Perhaps, but that is the role I agreed to take.

The flow chart you are so concerned over is only wrong by a squeek. It seems to ask the troop to try and settle the dispute in house before elevating it to the next level. however as in any appeal process, if the scout still feels he is not being dealt with fairly he can choose to go to the next level.

These appeals happen so rarely that this small error has no effect on the program. I guess I don't understand your concern.

Is it that you don't want the problem resolved in the unit level if possible?

Is it the ability of the scout to appeal advancement decisions?

Is it merely that the flow chart does not immediately send the scout to the next level, but gives the troop a chance to resolve the situation first?

Perhaps if you could clarify for your primary concern I would understand better.

Thanks,

Bob

None

tjhammer,

And yet again you avoid the the subject.

You signed an agreement to follow the rules and policies of the BSA. If you knew at the time that you signed that you could not in good conscience keep your word then you should not have joined. If after you signed the agreement you decided that that the rules did not suit you then you owe it to yourself to either notify national of your concern and let them determine the direction of the program or resign. Your current actions are not within the rules of the program. Policies will not change because you send posts to a forum.

So let us see if you can answer 3 direct questions.

1. Did you sign a membership application form?

2. Do you intend to abide by the rules and policies you agreed to when you signed.

3. Will you do the right thing and contact the national executive board with your recommendations?

tjhammer

PS

"If a boy came up to me and made this argument would I say No your are wrong and I am right"?

No, I would say "sorry those are not the principles of this organization or the rules you agreed to when you joined". "If you feel you cannot live up to those rules then you will need to seek membership in another organization".

It's unfortunate no one made these rules clear to you earlier on.

jthammer

Again you skirt the issue. The other Scouting movements are not the BSA. Each country has its own organization, contolling body and methods. The issue here is not the rules by which any other program operates only the one that you chose to join and agreed to follow.

Sorry about the typo "amend the truth".

You chose the tactic of avoiding facts, and misdirecting responses around the true issue.

We have rules you agreed to follow. If cannot do so in good conscience then either take the appropriate steps by informing the executive board as to why you are right and the Supreme Court is wrong, or do yourself a favor and quit violating your word, join an organization that agrees with you. This organization does not.

You knew the rules when you joined.

tjhammer

Abain you bend the truth to suit you. The principles of the program are one in the same as the principles set by the BSA. They are inseperable. The program belongs to the BSA, we as volunteers and Charter organizations have created this program and at the same time pledged to abide by it. You have done neither. You try to change it through meaningless rantings on web forum, when even by your own admission the program you promised to follow requires yoou to use appropriate channels to seek change.

It is time you either fish or cut bait. If you want to change the program contact a member of the national executive committee and state your argument as to why the Supreme Court is in error. Otherwise follow the rules you agreed to, or find another organization that suits your beliefs.

Once again it seems you are avoiding the facts. The fact is that you are not working within the system. This forum has nothing to do with "the system" publicly advocating homosexuals in scouting is not within "the system".

The fact is that the current rules of scouting are not to your liking and rather than present your views to a member of the the executive committee and let the debate continue within that forum you are breaking your word.

The character we are buiding in scouting is defined by the scouting program not your personal morals. We are not wrong just because a percentage of the population disagrees with us. We have set our boundaries and you signed an agreement to stay within them.

We are not a political organization, we are a youth service organization. Your only interest is to further your personal agenda, that makes it political and a detraction from our program.

The Supreme Court of United States has no problem with the operating guidelines of the BSA. That works for millions of members who have kept their word when they joined, knowing full well, as you did, what the rules were when we joined.

I realize that those rules don't work for everyone. There are lots of other clubs to join.

tjhammer,

You stated early in your posts that you wanted to discuss this topic outside the arena of the morality of homosexuality.

I will give you that opportunity, however it makes the entire argument rather compact.

When you registered as a adult voulunteer in the BSA you signed a document agreeing to "comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America and the local council".

The quality of our program depends heavily on the personal integrity of our leaders.

Do you intent to keep your word and comply with our rules or not?

Homosexuality is just one of several characteristics and activities that are identified as not being condusive to the goals of the program. Let's say you like to use liquid fuel to start campfires. The morality of it is not in question, it has been determined to not be in keeping with the what we are trying to achieve and is not allowed. A leader who uses it can be removed. (I realize this is over-simplification of the topic, but it is just another rule that you agreed to follow.)

If you intend to act within the rules then your arguments are pointless. If you do not intend to abide by the rules then you have chosen not to be a member of this particular organization. Either is fine but you need to choose.

The 'Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures' manual spells out the requirements for an Eagle board. Requirements include.

*21years of age or older

*a minimun of three members, a maximum of six

*at least one must be a representative of the district or council advancement committee

*the others need not be registered members of the BSA but must have an understanding of the importance and purpose of the Eagle Board of review.

Tough problem sst3rd. I wouldn't give up trying to strengthen your Charter Organizations Pack but in the mean time you need to look out for your troop. You mentioned "brother" packs. I would talk with your District Executive. It would be very unusual for every pack to have a troop assiated with the same charter organization. There are quite probably other packs in your area that you could build relationships with.

I wouldn't worry whether or not they had "brother troops" connected to the pack. Several Webelos join different troops or no troops at all even when they have troops at their same location. the reasons are many. Parental disagreements with leaders, inconvenient meeting night, weak program etc...

Any boy who is not in scouting is a potential troop member. Keep your program strong, it is the best recruitment tool you have.

Keep bringing the pack's poor health to the attention of the COR. Remember the Cubmaster is not in charge of the pack. They get to serve the pack at the will of the CC and COR. The CC with a strong committee could override many of the problems the CM is causing.

Good Luck

Doug, maybe I'm misreading your posts, but you seem to be mostly concerned with maintaining the power base of the SM, and you see this errent flow chart as being able to undermine the SM. The SM is not THE leader of a scout unit. He or she is just one of the leaders of the scout troop. The scoutmaster helps with the program, the CC with the administration and the COR with the Charter organization relationship.

The unit committee has a responsibility to evaluate the troop program and the BOR made of committee members has the "authority" to advance scouts.

An appeal once it leaves the unit level will almost always find in favor of the boy, flow chart or not.

You might be surprised by the number of adults who use their "autority" to bend scouting to their vision of it, and in their wake they short change the scout. Having sat on locally and nationally requested appellate boards I can tell you that once an adult goes beyond the requirements in the Official Boy Scout Handbook the board will find for the scout.

Using your own scenario, even failing to have signed the Scout Spirit line would not have kept the scout from advancing. Why? because projects are not required to be pre-approved just approved. and refusing to do a conference or board (since boards and SM conferences can be done at any time not just at the moment of advancement)calls into question the scout spirit of the adult not the boy.

I am not suggesting you bury your head in the sand. It seems to me you took very appropriate steps to call to attention to the errors of the flow chart. But as some scouts find out, not all adults play nice. DEs change, Council Execs. change, local Advancement chairs change. Every time that happens you can point out the error again.

As long as you know that there is an appeal process available to the boys should they feel they have treated incorrectly, then you will be a great resource to your scouting community.

Doug,

I admit to feeling a little silly debating a fictional scenario. Since you wrote it, only you know what was in the head of the characters. However, a service project can be approved after the event. The approval is for the quality of the service, not in the planning as in an Eagle project.

Don't sweat the flow chart. Appeals rarely happen, and when they do the national rules are all that count. if you feel that the District and Council are not following national policy (when an actual appeal takes place), you can contact the National Advancement Committee and get clarification.

Remember appeals almost always happen when adults misuse the program, and the appeal process is there to protect the boy not the "authority" of the adult.

This flow chart has little or no effect on the quality of scouting that you deliver to the scouts in your unit. I recommend you not expend either energy of attitude on it.

Rember the lesson of the Serenity Prayer

GOD, grant me the serenity to accept the things

I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

Doug,

I'm not sure I would get to worked up over the flow chart. I agree it is incorrect, and you have tried to bring it to the attention of the proper people. Bear in mind that just because the council advancement committee printed it does not over-ride the actual policy which you correctly site in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual.

My concern is in the story you created to explain your position. You site the policy correctly but you understanding of it is in error.

The parent in your story did the appropriate thing. Since parents probably have no idea of the advancement policies, or the above mentioned manual, they would call the SM or the Committee Chair. In your case they called the CC. The Committee chair would have hopefully called the SM for clarification, however in your story you had him go over the SM head and hold the Board. The board in your story approved the advancement. At this point you pretty much shut all the doors on yourself. Once a boy has been awarded there are no take-backs.

Thank goodness this was your own fiction, but I'm sure that this sometimes happens in real life. A perfect example of adults not being able to play nice together.

Had the appeal gone from dad to the district or council level, the board most likely would have sided with the boy. (the Scoutmaster was in error for adding to the requirements. The book does not say the work needs to be PRE-approved, just approved).

As far as the Scoutmasters authority. The scoutmaster's job is to train junior leaders and know the needs and characteristics of every scout.

1.Had the SM done his job he would be aware of the scouts advancement work and this situation would not have happened.

2. had the SM not altered the advancement requirements the dad would not have needed to contact the CC.

3. Had the CC and the SM had a good relationship they would have discussed the problem before having the BOR.

My suggestion, write a story where the scout and his family transfer to a more functional troop:-)

Seriously, the scout policy on this procedure has been around for a long time, advancement volunteers come and go. Wait for a change on the Advancement committee and then resubmit you note that the flow chart does not match policy. Drop the story however because it doesn't help you.

PattiBear, You are off to a strong start. You have the right leader book and you obviously have the willingness to do things right. I suggest you get your own Webelos Scout Handbook.Next find another parent to help you. Get togetyher over a soda and open the Webelos Leader handbook and the Webelos SAcout Handbook. Select three themes tis month next month and the month after. Your Cubmaster can let you know the natioinal themes (hopefully the pack is following the national calendar). the Webelos Leader handbook outlines 4 den meetings for each theme. Unitl you find your own pace, use these outlines as written. They will guide you through a successful meeting. Gather your props for your themes at least 30 days in advance. Try projects first so that you know how they work (and can make sure they really do work). Remember to keep everything hands on and don't stay on one thing too long. Boys this age still have limited attention spans. Keep parents informed of what the den is working on and let them know if any projects need to be finished at home and returned to the den meeting. Be positive in your comments, have fun. Visit you district roundtable for additional project ideas and places to go in the community for program enhancement. Lastly start getting the boys outdoors they will be lusting for campouts, but you need to keep it limited. They do not yet have the skills or knowledge for quality camping, and a bad experience could steer them away from scouting. Day events outdaoors and an overnighter with a scout troop would be great.

Hope this helps,

Bob

PattiBear, You are off to a strong start. You have the right leader book and you obviously have the willingness to do things right. I suggest you get your own Webelos Scout Handbook.Next find another parent to help you. Get togetyher over a soda and open the Webelos Leader handbook and the Webelos SAcout Handbook. Select three themes tis month next month and the month after. Your Cubmaster can let you know the natioinal themes (hopefully the pack is following the national calendar). the Webelos Leader handbook outlines 4 den meetings for each theme. Unitl you find your own pace, use these outlines as written. They will guide you through a successful meeting. Gather your props for your themes at least 30 days in advance. Try projects first so that you know how they work (and can make sure they really do work). Remember to keep everything hands on and don't stay on one thing too long. Boys this age still have limited attention spans. Keep parents informed of what the den is working on and let them know if any projects need to be finished at home and returned to the den meeting. Be positive in your comments, have fun. Visit you district roundtable for additional project ideas and places to go in the community for program enhancement. Lastly start getting the boys outdoors they will be lusting for campouts, but you need to keep it limited. They do not yet have the skills or knowledge for quality camping, and a bad experience could steer them away from scouting. Day events outdaoors and an overnighter with a scout troop would be great.

Hope this helps,

Bob

you've gotten some very good ideas for your fundraisers in this string Advance On. But beware of the ones that recommend selling Brand name products such as See candy or Little Ceasars pizza. If you choose to sell branded products, other than those that carry the sscouting name, you will not be able to wear the scout uniform or mention scouting at any point of the sale before during or at delivery. The Scouting name and uniform are licensed trademarks of the BSA and a unit does not have the legal authority to lend that name to a branded product without explicit permission from the BSA (see the Unit Money Earning form). There would be severe personal financial losses that could be incurred by members of the unit should a lawsuit develop from the sale.

NJCubscouter's story is a perfect example as to why the most important element isn't WHO gets the ball rolling, but HOW it gets rolling. Anything built on a weak foundation is destined to fall over. A scout unit is no different. Starting a unit without the support of a genuine charter organization that wants to use the scouting program as a one of it's youth programs is short sighted and destined to be short lived.

Pass Him> he did his best, he showed overall improvement. Whether he did as good as another scout is irrelevant, as long as he did his personal best.

Robin,

The woggle is only worn with the Wood Badge neckerchief. The beads may be worn whenever you wear the official uniform shirt. the Wood Badge neckerchief is normally only worn during training events, Wood Badge events, or formal occasions. Check with your course director however as local traditions vary.

Yes.

I see units starting by individuals or groups at many different levels. Whether it is a parent, SM, COR, CC is pretty irreleveant to the success of the unit. Its like asking who baked the cake. What is more important that a good recipe was followed. In Scouting the recipe is

1. Scouting as a youth outreach program of the Charter organization.

2 The organization is responsible for the leadership

3 SM do not own the unit. the COR does

Can you bake a good cake if you don't follow the recipe, sure, but the recipe yields quality results on a more consistant basis.