Bob White

Yes, he can still wear his yellow back servicwe star, His Arrow of light strip below his left shirt pocket AND his World Crest over the left pocket and a little below the shoulder seam. The crest is a personal option on the uniform representing the world wide brotherhood of scouting. See the Insignia Guide 2003-2005

Hi Eamonn, I will offer a different view. Most participants, if not all, will write and complete a ticket. A ticket is concrete. It has substance. A participant can hold it, and comprehend it. If they get stuck they can even borrow an idea from someone else. Everyone will leave Wood Badge with a ticket. But a personal vision and mission is entirely different. I would venture to say that most people do not now, and never will have, a personal vision and mission in their lives. Wood Badge spends a lot of time on this in order to help participants begin to think about a subject that has probably seldom if ever crossed their mind. The vast majority of scouters, even of those who take Wood Badge, will never fully embrace a personal vision or mission. But, it needs to be stressed and dwelled on at WB because the world of scouting and the world at large are formed and changed by those with a vision and mission. If we can get but a handful of scouters a year to develop and act on a real vision and life mission, men and women who want to do more than go camping or collect patches, leaders who want to leave a legacy for others to benefit from, then they can change the world if they choose to. We cannot stop scouters in WB (and certainly not those outside of Wood Badge) from obsessing or over emphasizing the ticket process. But we can do our part to encourage scouters to understand the incredible power of a person vision and mission. Live to leave a legacy, Bob White

Hi Its Me, Its me at this end too. From my vantage point your problem isnt cookware. The real problem is the den is too large and should be two dens. 8 boys is the maximum size for a den in order to operate effectively and be able to deliver the program in a quality manner (remember den size is not based on the leadership ability of the adults, but on the social capabilities of the scout). Its doubtful you will find a reasonably sized, and priced, piece of cookware that has the capabilities and capacity to prepare a variety of meals for 20-plus people. The best solution at this point would probably be to function as two dens for meal preparation, and have the correct gear for each den. That could be griddle and/or Dutch oven depending on the menu that has been planned. Remember you have the resources of your den, and your scouting community, to draw on for assistance in gathering the needed gear. Have a great time outdoors, Bob White

Serving in a position of leadership means that if they are elected or appointed to a position, such as Patrol Leader, and serve in that position for the required time, they have satisfactorily completed that requirement. The conclusion is that time in position fulfills the requirement. The decision also said, The issue of whether their service is satisfactory is resolved at the local board of review for that rank. Therefore, a boy who was in the position of Scribe for six months from Life to Eagle had fulfilled that requirement. That does not necessarily mean that he will pass his board of review, because if his service was not satisfactory, he could be turned down at the board of review. Accu40, Is the bold section from the National office or a local addition to their text? I ask because it does not seem to follow what the rest of the section says. As I understand it, national is saying the scout must "SERVE" in the position not just hold it. That the BOR can determine that the scout did not provide service and can withold advancement based on that decision. They go on to say that the Scout MUST be given clear goals and instructions at the time of his taking office, so that both he and the BOR understand what his performance will be judged on. Nowhere in the quotes from National do I see them say or even imply that "time in position fulfills the requirement" as the line in your post states. Is that correct? My guess is that in this specific situation addressed by the appeals board, it was determined that the scout (although not completing the requirement to someones satisfaction), had not been given "his job description and responsibilities" so was in fact set up to fail by the Scoutmaster. That being the case, the appeals board correctly decided in favor of the scout. As I understand the passage that you shared, what the appeals board is politely telling this particular troop leadership is that if the adults do not do their job in preparing the scout for his leadership role then do not expect to gig him on his performance at the end of his tenure. They are saying, yes, the scout needs to actively serve as the handbook says, but the SM has to tell him up front how he will be evaluted. If that is not done and the scout in in office the entire period of time then it is the adults problem and not the scout's. Is that how you understand the decision as well?

Whoa Dan! Wood Badge was started in England in 1919, and came to the US in 1936. White Stag did not come along until 1958, 22-years after Wood Badge. For a history of the BSA Wood Badge look here http://www.woodbadge.org/ For a history of White Stag look here. http://www.pinetreeweb.com/staghist.htm (This message has been edited by Bob White)

very cool!

"People said much the same thing about Jews; nothing personal, they just didn't like Jews." I find that sort of comparison cowardly, misleading and inaccurate. The fact is, while I have nothing against a member of the Jewish faith, they would not be allowed to join my faith unless they accepted the tenets I have accepted in my church. Does that make my church discriminating? As a matter of fact it does. In the same way I would not be allowed to become a leader in the Jewish faith unless I embraced their beliefs. That is the wonderful thing about our society. We have the power of choice. If you want to join the BSA you must accept the tenets of the BSA. It is your choice. The BSA is not keeping atheists out. Atheists are keeping themselves out. They have the choice to accept God in a variety of ways, but they choose not to. No one is imprisoning you, or torturing you, or developing technology to exterminate you en masse. In fact the BSA is more than willing to not effect your life at all, unless you ask us to, by wanting to serve God and community through service to both. But you chose not to. What is my feeling on schools chartering units? First let me point out an irony. I have seen hundreds and hundreds of charters and have never seen one chartered to the school itself. You have never seen a charter, let alone one that was chartered to a school, yet you are positive they exist. If you could only accept the existence of God as easily as you accept the existence of a charter YOU could be a member of the BSA. In many religions "believing without having seen" is a sign of faith. Funny ain't it? Next When I sell a product to a customer, my concern is "will they" fulfill the contract, not "how will they". The "how" is their business, not mine. The BSA asks an organization to sign the charter IF they can agree to operate the unit according to the policies of the BSA. The question is "will you" not "how will you". The "how" is for the Charter Organization to determine not the BSA.

"That's about what I figured; a century ago, much the same was said about Jews No more like liver and onions. I do not care for the the taste. I will not buy any, nor will I use any in my home. I have compared them to other tastes and find I prefer many other foods more. There is no discrimination between religions in the BSA, all are treated equally. Atheism is discriminated against not because of its religious beliefs but becasue it has no religious beliefs. To characterize atheism as a religion is nothing short of a hoax. You cannot measure the value of a void. It has none. Think of it as a restaurant that requires you to wear a tie. They do not judge each individual tie, only that you have one on. The BSA does not care what religion you practice only that you have one.You have no tie Merlyn. You cannot eat at our restaurant. A building whose owner cannot discrimante, can still house our restaurant, because the law says they can. But you merlyn, still need a tie to come in.

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My guess at this point is that TJLT will more closely resemble the contents of the NEW Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader Handbooks. It will teach patrol and troop operation and introduce situational management. JLTC will expand on situational management and some of the higher skills of leadership such as vision and mission. Again this is my personal guess based on the changes made to the junior leader handbooks and to Wood Badge for the 21st Century. There is also a possibillity that a district level of Junior Leader Training will return, similar to the Junior Leader Orientation Workshop course of the 1980's.

First, having lived in four councils and been involved in chartering units for nearly thirty years I can say that I have never seen a public school charter a scout unit. I have seen the PTAs and PTOs and other parent groups within a school hold a charter, but I have never seen one chartered to a public school. Second, my family discriminates against atheism. We look at the positive and negative elements of belief and disbelief and choose to believe. We are also prejudiced against atheists. I will not try to foster a friendship with anyone that let it be known they lacked the moral integrity to recognize God's hand in their life. I will not do business with them, they will not enter my home. Can my son not attend the public school? Play in the band? Run on the track team? My family is no different an organization than the BSA. We are protected by the same constitutional rights. I can choose my associations just as the BSA can. The families of the communities we each live in can choose the organizations they want their children to join. Tens of thousands of groups of these families have chosen the BSA. THEY CHOSE the BSA, no one forced them to. No one MADE THEM charter a unit. No one MADE millions and millions of parents enroll their children to share the ideals of scouting. Discrimination is the process of choosing based on a comparison of good and bad. The BSA has shown discrimination between belief in a God and how it affects a persons growth, and disbelief and how that affects growth. They have determined that their goals can best be achieved through a membership of believers. Prejudice is pre-judging a person based on a specific trait. You can be prejudiced for or against something or someone. The BSA shows prejudice against anyone who tells them that they do not believe or give service to God. There is nothing illegal or immoral in either discrimination or prejudice unless an authority sets specific rules for those it has authority over regarding these two issues. For instance the laws governing employment can restrict an employer from using discrimination in hiring in specific areas or information, such as age, sex, ethnicity. However, an employer can still discriminate in a multitude of other areas grooming, skills, knowledge etc. They can also show prejudice in areas not specifically controlled by law. The discrimination and prejudiced practiced by the BSA has been reviewed by the US Supreme Court, and they have determined that it is not illegal. The problem is Merlyn you think it is immoral, and if the BSA and the majority of the organizations that it serves thought that atheists had the ability to make good moral decisions without a basis in religious service, then you would have been allowed membership. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eagledad, Quite the contrary, rather than ignoring junior leader training, the BSA has been focusing on it. For the past two years a national task force has been reviewing and revamping junior leader training. A new JLT course has been developed and has had its first field test. It is being refined and is expected to be ready for use by councils in the summer of 2005. You need to be aware that the troop level training, TJLT, has existed for over 15 years. it is not something new that was sent to replace JLT, but is a unit level version that the troop can hold whenever new leaders are elected or selected for unit service. I do not expect to see any specific training be made a requirement for rank advancement in the near future. There is no point in worrying about it, it is still only a rumor with no evidence of fact.

Acco, it depends on whether the speaker is situated on the same level of the audience or on a platform, and whether the flags are on the floor level or the riser level. Could you restate your question so that it asks a question?

Sorry Acco, but your comparison is flawed. You see advancement and membership, while both are controlled by National policies, have different parameters. The membership policies allow a charter organization to be more restrictive but not less restrictive than the National requirements. This would allow, as in your example, a Catholic Church that was a Charter Organization to restrict membership in their units to Catholics. The advancement policies, on the other hand, do not allow anyone to add to or delete from the requirements as listed in the official handbooks. That would prohibit you from being allowed to require TJLT unless it was a requirement set by the National Executive Board of the BSA.

"No, it's the truth. By issuing charters to public schools, the BSA is expecting these public schools to exclude atheists. It's illegal for public schools to do this." Excellent job of changing context Merlyn. Schools cannot base enrollment or hiring on sexual discrimination. That does not make it illegal for them to charter a scout unit, or for scouting to excercise their constitutionally protected right of free association. Secondly, the school does not charter the unit, the Parent Teachers Organization ssociation does and as a private organization, they are not bound by the same federal laws.

"it may be an implied requirement for members of certain troops." The advancemnet policies of the BSA are quite specific that not person or unit has the authority to add to or delete from the requirements for advancement. The statement made above would imply otherwise. TJLT is a tool for the Scoutmaster just as much as it is for the scout. I don't see how you can base a boy's advancement on a SM doing their job correctly. While the BSA encourages all junior leaders to attend TJLT as the second step of their leadersip training, it is not and should not be treated as a requirement, until the BSA specifically makes it one.

The mission of scouting is not to turn boys into men. How does one deliver a scouting program without understanding its purpose? "Im all for equal rights, but your forgetting one big thing women cant do, get drafted" Sure they can, all it takes is for congress to say so. Who is to say if the draft is needed again that women wouldn't be a part of it? Remember, even the current group of age eligible men don't know what it means to be drafted. The draft hasn't existed for 30 years. The next Congress that has to make that decision might draft women. In the mean time since no one is drafted it's an empty issue.

I have met and worked with a number of fine people in the scouting program. Given the choice of; a grumpy committee member who doesn't like the uniform, the handbook, kids today or their parents, or; a woman who wants to learn and follow the scouting program, I'd want the woman to work with. Besides being a better leader and role model, she would undoubtedly be better company. It is not the gender of the person that makes them a good leader of the scouting program, but the character they bring with them that matters.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have not heard of such a change at this point. If it were to happen it is more likely that it would be TJLT and not JLT that would be required. The difference you ask? JLT is a week long training course organized under the Council Training Committee. TJLT is a one-day workshop lead by the Scoutmaster. Since a Star, Life and Eagle Scout are all required to hold leadership offices, it would be reasonable to expect them to attend TJLT. We have for many years. Bob White

"Please also note that the US flag needs to be to the presentors left (audiences right) and at an equal or greater hight then any other flagwhen placed on display" This is true in some cases and not true in others. This is one of those cases where, for clarity's sake, we should consider sticking to the original question. Does the American Flag cross in front of the church flag? Yes, I'm confident it does on US soil. Why US soil? Because it is the USA rules regarding the USA flag. In other countries, their rules would take priority. If we are to discuss other flag rules may I suggest we use a separate thread so that we do not overwhelm Petal.

The BSA issues Charters to any qualified organization wishing to use the scouting program to benefit eligible members. Schools PTO's are parents of the students should they not be allowed to sponsor programs that endorse their family's values? There are girls at schools that have Boy Scout troops and packs who are not allowed to be members, should schools not have troop or packs because of that? There are schools with basketball teams where there are students who will never make the cut to play, should the school not have a basketball team? The BSA discriminates based on the fact that they are a private organization and have a constitutionally protected right of free association. The BSA has never forced anyone to charter a unit. Any organization that doesn't like what the BSA stands for is welcome to not use the program. Iy just happens that Schools like the BSA because it makes better students, it promotes good behavior, good study habits, self discipline, goal setting, and many other fine attributes. It also promotes citizenship and the importance of understanding that we are not the center of our universe. That in order to fully develop in character and concern for others, a person needs to accept and develop their service to God, in whatever name you choose to worship Him. Now some would say that we also promotes illegal discrimination. That is an out and out lie. Nowhere in the program of the BSA is a scout taught that or has that exemplified for them. We teach scouts to make their own decisions based on the elements of the Oath and Law. The National office has the right to set membership requirements that best allow us to meet our mission. Instead of atheists trying to make scouting more like them, perhaps they should be trying to be more like scouts.

If done in this country yes.

Thanks Terry!

Perhaps required is to emotional a word for some. I will adjust. There are 4 standard elements that must be present on a BSA Field Uniform in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts or Venturing. The first two are the American Flag and the program affiliation strip that come pre-sewn on the uniform shirts. The second two are the council shoulder patch that signifies your council membership and the shoulder loops that distinguish the program area you are in. With these 4 elements, a uniform shirt is complete and correct. All other awards are worn by the recipient at their choice. The location of the award, and when it can be worn, is set by the BSA.