Venividi

I gather that both the crew and the the troop were at the same camporee. So it wasn't a matter of choosing between a camping trip and a band trip, or a rare opportunity to do something special (as examples).

I agree with your disappointment.. A man to man, heart to heart chat between SM and SPL about what it means to have responsibilities, How he would have felt if the older guys in the crew ditched him and went off with other friends.

If the crew adult leaders knew that one of the boys was an SPL, the crew adviser should have had the same type of chat. We're all in this scouting thing together, and we should be looking out for both growth in individual scouts and avoid unthinkingly weakening each other units.

Same with the Eagle and Life scouts, though they don't have as explicit a responsibility to the troop, More of an implicit one. If you the boys and talk to them once in a while, it would be appropriate for you to have a short chat with them as well. It helps them to self reflect and develop character.

Well I see the indexing is still a jacked up.....

 

KDD, It is inappropriate for you to ask the SPL anything regarding your sons advancement or POR. Far as the grub master thing goes.....He didn't really do much on this single trip because of left overs from the canceled camp out right???????

 

there will be plenty of time for you son to enjoy his scouting......One second you say you get it and the next your hovering over him......

 

Second there is only ONE SM, If you are the ASM in charge of summer camp then you are an ASM in charge of summer camp.....None of this Temporary SM nonsense.....

 

If your an ASM you should not sit on the committee and vice versa......As an ASM you should not sit in on BOR.

Still here folks, we had a campout this weekend. One of the parents has a snack route and we used his trailer haul bikes to a park and the boys took 21 or 27 mile ride Saturday. I got a bit ill and stayed at camp but it worked out well because on the the bikes had a non standard valve and we couldn't pressurize it so he used mine.

 

I have read all the posts here at least a couple of times and really appreciate the time you have taken to respond. It has been a lot to think about. I certainly don't want my son to rush through anything and agree completely he need to focus primarily on having fun and mastering Scoutcraft skills. He was patrol grubmaster and due to a rained out event a few weeks ago and moderate attendance this weekend he was assigned to the older scout patrol. He did really well with the cooking with only a couple minor problems. When breaking camp the older boys tried to tell him rolling up his pad and bag were not about strength but skill and tried to show him how as he was holding up breakfast. He got really frustrated and upset because with the equipment he was using it IS about strength. It is hard for me. That can be fixed with a larger stuff sack and a simpler pad. Given the chance for rain and our leaky tents I sent him his moms 3 1/2" REI pad. Great pad, but hard to roll up.

 

I will just have to play it by ear with this troop. Seeing other scouts rush past him can certainly be discouraging, but if he develops true ambition I can't see slowing him down. It will be largely be upmto him if he wants to work on skills and exercise to get his strength up or play video games. (not that there are no limits on video in my house). At this point he excels when given manageable tasks and takes pride in doing a good job, like patrol grubmaster this weekend.

 

I am bothered a bit by the perception that Eagle is the destination and not just one milestone on the Journey. I think part of that is the result of the BSAs heavy emphasis on that brand. There are so many other goals achievements past Eagle that I feel to little emphasis is placed on. For instance the National Outdoor Badge and Nova awards. Our council is having a STEM camp week this summer where one badge or Nova Is worked on each day. A format that allows for more time and focus than traditional summer camp format. First class is required so that will have to wait until next summer. (If he gets there, but I am sure he will).

 

I am curious what T-1 skills are so hard to master in one year ? As long as it a 2 man tent and not some 8 person hotel the tent should be easy enough in a year. The orienteering skills certainly take practice, but is not rocket science. The knots maybe hard for him, but again 15 minutes with some rope a couple of times a week should get it done. If you don't have a fireplace a trash can lid in the driveway should suffice to get some tinder and a few pieces of kindling started. First aid, plants and animals is just memorization. I grill frequently and it is now his job to flip the chicken and burgers. Good time to slow him down and have a chat on the deck. (Why the heck is an instant read thermometer required on the packing list or internal temperature tables in the handbook ? Meat is done when it is done, not how long it has been over heat.)

 

It was mentioned that it is a rare scout that attends meetings, goes camping, participates in activities, and wants to lead if allowed. That is my son, so far he has perfect attendance, only one of the others in the NSP does.

 

Please keep up the conversation. These kinds of topics should always be active.

Sort of right. It is a rare scout under 13 or 14 that wants lead, has had the experiences necessary to be able to lead, AND is willing to put in the effort needed to lead. Many new scouts want to be a leader, when they think it is an honorary position and means that they get to tell people what to do and they have to do it. They don't realize what a leader really does, nor the work that has to be done to be a leader, They joined scouts to do fun stuff, not to be responsible for the well being of a patrol full of scouts.

Well I see the indexing is still a jacked up.....

 

KDD, It is inappropriate for you to ask the SPL anything regarding your sons advancement or POR. Far as the grub master thing goes.....He didn't really do much on this single trip because of left overs from the canceled camp out right???????

 

there will be plenty of time for you son to enjoy his scouting......One second you say you get it and the next your hovering over him......

 

Second there is only ONE SM, If you are the ASM in charge of summer camp then you are an ASM in charge of summer camp.....None of this Temporary SM nonsense.....

 

If your an ASM you should not sit on the committee and vice versa......As an ASM you should not sit in on BOR.

An aside: I once bought the books for all the PL's and SPL's. I don't think they ever read them.

Well I see the indexing is still a jacked up.....

 

KDD, It is inappropriate for you to ask the SPL anything regarding your sons advancement or POR. Far as the grub master thing goes.....He didn't really do much on this single trip because of left overs from the canceled camp out right???????

 

there will be plenty of time for you son to enjoy his scouting......One second you say you get it and the next your hovering over him......

 

Second there is only ONE SM, If you are the ASM in charge of summer camp then you are an ASM in charge of summer camp.....None of this Temporary SM nonsense.....

 

If your an ASM you should not sit on the committee and vice versa......As an ASM you should not sit in on BOR.

As the grubmaster purchases and brings the food, while on the campout, it's a bit late to remind anyone who the grubmaster is. It is obvious when he shows up with the food.

In the situation you describe, you could take the PL aside and say "I don't see your duty roster posted. How about you go get it and tape it to the [chuckbox/picnic table/tree/whatever is close?] Patrols should absolutely positively have a duty roster for every camp out and posted prominantly so that all scouts can see what cores/tasks they are supposed to do.

dont ask a Pl or SPL about jobs your son is supposed to have. or requirements that you want him to work on, or think that he should be doing. Unless you want your son to get teased about being Daddy's special punkin or somesuch, I would absolutely avoid bringing up that [son's name here] is supposed to be [any assignment here].

Consider handling it this way. After you get home, talk to your son about the camp out. Ask what was fun, and what wasn't. Ask "I thought you were supposed to be the cook [help cook, whatever is appropriate]. What happened that you didn't?" You will likely get the typical response "I dunno". Ask "Did you want to do it?" If the answer is "yes", then give the wise, fatherly advice "Next time remind your patrol leader".

If your son is the shy geeky loner that you describe, you will want to have him in situations where he needs to speak up for himself. If someone else is speaking up for him, he is unlikely to bother with doing it himself. In my opinion, that is a much more important benefit of camping with a patrol of boys than any other skill. Even if it isn't working towards a T-1 skill.

Gasp! Next I suppose you will propose that kids could get benefit from organizing their own neighborhood teams to play baseball in the summer in some vacant lot somewhere. How can kids be expected to organize themselves without the benefit of adults? what if they choose to modify the rules to their liking? Where are the trophies? How could a kid ever develop baseball skills if therre are no trophies to be had? Pure fun and enjoyment doesn't provide that type of motivation! (this was sarcasm, in case anyone had any doubt).

Still here folks, we had a campout this weekend. One of the parents has a snack route and we used his trailer haul bikes to a park and the boys took 21 or 27 mile ride Saturday. I got a bit ill and stayed at camp but it worked out well because on the the bikes had a non standard valve and we couldn't pressurize it so he used mine.

 

I have read all the posts here at least a couple of times and really appreciate the time you have taken to respond. It has been a lot to think about. I certainly don't want my son to rush through anything and agree completely he need to focus primarily on having fun and mastering Scoutcraft skills. He was patrol grubmaster and due to a rained out event a few weeks ago and moderate attendance this weekend he was assigned to the older scout patrol. He did really well with the cooking with only a couple minor problems. When breaking camp the older boys tried to tell him rolling up his pad and bag were not about strength but skill and tried to show him how as he was holding up breakfast. He got really frustrated and upset because with the equipment he was using it IS about strength. It is hard for me. That can be fixed with a larger stuff sack and a simpler pad. Given the chance for rain and our leaky tents I sent him his moms 3 1/2" REI pad. Great pad, but hard to roll up.

 

I will just have to play it by ear with this troop. Seeing other scouts rush past him can certainly be discouraging, but if he develops true ambition I can't see slowing him down. It will be largely be upmto him if he wants to work on skills and exercise to get his strength up or play video games. (not that there are no limits on video in my house). At this point he excels when given manageable tasks and takes pride in doing a good job, like patrol grubmaster this weekend.

 

I am bothered a bit by the perception that Eagle is the destination and not just one milestone on the Journey. I think part of that is the result of the BSAs heavy emphasis on that brand. There are so many other goals achievements past Eagle that I feel to little emphasis is placed on. For instance the National Outdoor Badge and Nova awards. Our council is having a STEM camp week this summer where one badge or Nova Is worked on each day. A format that allows for more time and focus than traditional summer camp format. First class is required so that will have to wait until next summer. (If he gets there, but I am sure he will).

 

I am curious what T-1 skills are so hard to master in one year ? As long as it a 2 man tent and not some 8 person hotel the tent should be easy enough in a year. The orienteering skills certainly take practice, but is not rocket science. The knots maybe hard for him, but again 15 minutes with some rope a couple of times a week should get it done. If you don't have a fireplace a trash can lid in the driveway should suffice to get some tinder and a few pieces of kindling started. First aid, plants and animals is just memorization. I grill frequently and it is now his job to flip the chicken and burgers. Good time to slow him down and have a chat on the deck. (Why the heck is an instant read thermometer required on the packing list or internal temperature tables in the handbook ? Meat is done when it is done, not how long it has been over heat.)

 

It was mentioned that it is a rare scout that attends meetings, goes camping, participates in activities, and wants to lead if allowed. That is my son, so far he has perfect attendance, only one of the others in the NSP does.

 

Please keep up the conversation. These kinds of topics should always be active.

As the grubmaster purchases and brings the food, while on the campout, it's a bit late to remind anyone who the grubmaster is. It is obvious when he shows up with the food.

In the situation you describe, you could take the PL aside and say "I don't see your duty roster posted. How about you go get it and tape it to the [chuckbox/picnic table/tree/whatever is close?]

And unless you want your son to get teased about being Daddy's special punkin or somesuch, I would absolutely avoid bringing up that [son's name here] is supposed to be [any assignment here].

Consider handling it this way. After you get home, talk to your son about the camp out. Ask what was fun, and what wasn't. Ask "I thought you were supposed to be the cook [help cook, whatever is appropriate]. What happened that you didn't?" You will likely get the typical response "I dunno". Ask "Did you want to do it?" If the answer is "yes", then give the wise, fatherly advice "Next time remind your patrol leader".

If your son is the shy geeky loner that you describe, you will want to have him in situations where he needs to speak up for himself. If someone else is speaking up for him, he is unlikely to bother with doing it himself. In my opinion, that is a much more important benefit of camping with a patrol of boys than any other skill. Even if it isn't working towards a T-1 skill.

KDD step back relax....It will happen when it does....Your scout is what 11????? Generally our boys don't get to take swimming till their third trip to summer camp???? So they are 13 or so.

Scouts can and will advance at different rates. A couple may catch on quickly and are naturals at everything. A couple won't care about advancement at all and won't be bothered or discouraged by others advancing when they are not. Most are in the middle. They are there to have fun; advancement is a nice bonus, but not why they are there. Seeing other scouts advancing can provide the motivation to learn the required skills. that is part of the positive peer pressure that we want to use for the boys to get better (same with the patrol vs patrol skills competition, which I believe is more effective motivator than advancement.)

Aside from the unusual few that are already good at things when they arrive, and those not motivated by advancement, I would not expect to see other scouts rushing past. The expectations of high of each of them is the same, and most kids will be about the same when it comes to learning skills an dmotivation to pursue them.

Still here folks, we had a campout this weekend. One of the parents has a snack route and we used his trailer haul bikes to a park and the boys took 21 or 27 mile ride Saturday. I got a bit ill and stayed at camp but it worked out well because on the the bikes had a non standard valve and we couldn't pressurize it so he used mine.

 

I have read all the posts here at least a couple of times and really appreciate the time you have taken to respond. It has been a lot to think about. I certainly don't want my son to rush through anything and agree completely he need to focus primarily on having fun and mastering Scoutcraft skills. He was patrol grubmaster and due to a rained out event a few weeks ago and moderate attendance this weekend he was assigned to the older scout patrol. He did really well with the cooking with only a couple minor problems. When breaking camp the older boys tried to tell him rolling up his pad and bag were not about strength but skill and tried to show him how as he was holding up breakfast. He got really frustrated and upset because with the equipment he was using it IS about strength. It is hard for me. That can be fixed with a larger stuff sack and a simpler pad. Given the chance for rain and our leaky tents I sent him his moms 3 1/2" REI pad. Great pad, but hard to roll up.

 

I will just have to play it by ear with this troop. Seeing other scouts rush past him can certainly be discouraging, but if he develops true ambition I can't see slowing him down. It will be largely be upmto him if he wants to work on skills and exercise to get his strength up or play video games. (not that there are no limits on video in my house). At this point he excels when given manageable tasks and takes pride in doing a good job, like patrol grubmaster this weekend.

 

I am bothered a bit by the perception that Eagle is the destination and not just one milestone on the Journey. I think part of that is the result of the BSAs heavy emphasis on that brand. There are so many other goals achievements past Eagle that I feel to little emphasis is placed on. For instance the National Outdoor Badge and Nova awards. Our council is having a STEM camp week this summer where one badge or Nova Is worked on each day. A format that allows for more time and focus than traditional summer camp format. First class is required so that will have to wait until next summer. (If he gets there, but I am sure he will).

 

I am curious what T-1 skills are so hard to master in one year ? As long as it a 2 man tent and not some 8 person hotel the tent should be easy enough in a year. The orienteering skills certainly take practice, but is not rocket science. The knots maybe hard for him, but again 15 minutes with some rope a couple of times a week should get it done. If you don't have a fireplace a trash can lid in the driveway should suffice to get some tinder and a few pieces of kindling started. First aid, plants and animals is just memorization. I grill frequently and it is now his job to flip the chicken and burgers. Good time to slow him down and have a chat on the deck. (Why the heck is an instant read thermometer required on the packing list or internal temperature tables in the handbook ? Meat is done when it is done, not how long it has been over heat.)

 

It was mentioned that it is a rare scout that attends meetings, goes camping, participates in activities, and wants to lead if allowed. That is my son, so far he has perfect attendance, only one of the others in the NSP does.

 

Please keep up the conversation. These kinds of topics should always be active.

Be cautious about giving instructions to SPL/PL (with exception of a safety issue); particulary when it comes to giving instructions about your son. Depending on your position, it can and will be seen as jumping rank. It is the SPL's job to give direction to the PL's. It is the Scoutmaster's job to make observations to the SPL and suggest that he might want ot have a chat with a PL.

Otherwise, 1) youth leaders could be getting conficting directions from multiple sources, 2) youth experience that they are not really the leaders; they simply do what the adults tell them to do.

Everyone else should observe quietly from a distance. Observations and concerns can be discussed with the SM and other ASM's; they can also be raised at the thorns and roses review at the end of the campout.

You did mention that the troop use age based patrols. It does create unique challenges if the new scout patrol has a new scout as a PL, as he has no experience leading, has not learned how to lead by being led by an older boy, and is not respected as a leader by the other scouts in his patrol because he doesn't know any more than they do. In that case, the troop guide should be teaching and coaching the new PL.

I find it more likely for the scouts to have higher standards for the other scouts than do adults, provided that the SM has let the SPL and star scouts know that high standards are expected. One way to re-inforce this is that when the SM finds a scout doesn't know a particular skill, he takes note of who signed the requirement, and has a chat with the signer to let him know that the scout didn't know his skill, and be more diligent in the future about being sure the skills are well learned before signing off.

If the kid has done his best, meets the requirements and performs the actions required then don't hold them back. Many troops do hold kids back until they "deserve to be Eagle" and good luck to them. With the number of kids that quit because tying knots and cooking is too much work you try to do what you can with what you have. I recall a few years that the national average is just under 15 yo. Once high school hits their time becomes precious and scarce with homework and other activities.

If kids are quiting because knot tying and cooking is too much work, that should not mean that standards should be lowered so that it is easier for them. There may be other factors that can be looked at: perhaps there isn't sufficient "fun factor" in the program; i.e, patrol vs patrol competitions on scout skills, with recognition for best patrol; cooking competitions at campouts, perhaps one with the mayor and/or teachers invited as tasters; a skills teaching weekend where scouts teach scout skills to webelos scouts. Heck, I've even seen a troop where scouts have a day when scouts teach scout skills to parents. It gives scouts a reason to spend time practicing skills, becasue there is a worthwhile goal.

I'm with qwazse. Yes, high school students have many demands on their time. They must prioritize, and they will make time for those activities that are worthwhile and meaningful to them. If the troop program is structured to rely on older scouts, making them feel that they are needed (and the program has prepared them), many of the high school aged boys will continue to come. If the program is the same old same old, with mostly hanging out, then they will spend there time on things that are more meaningful and challenging to them (and for some, that is computer games).

Give them a reason to give the troop a high priority in their lives.

I think KDD has raised good points in many threads. He is a great addition to this forum and the discussions. I hope he is pre-occupied this week and returns to the forum.

I agree with BD others. The bridge is special and the crossing over should be decoupled with AOL. Preferably at different times. My opinion is we should stick with immediate recognition and award AOL when the individual scout earns it and not wait until cross over night. I have not won that argument yet.

 

Our Pack holds B&G latter than most, late march/early April on a Friday night. The Webelos leave immediately to go on their first campout as a Boy Scout with the Troop. I think that adds an extra special importance to the ceremony.

sbemis,

Not sure why you would consider telling the older scout the expectations for participants would be considered rebuffing him. It's being honest, and letting him make a decision as to what is important to him. As much as we would like, we cannot have it all.

Some units choose to start the crew bonding with the crew training. There are advantages to it. Other units need not make the same choices, I agree that no trek will be perfect, but you can help the crew put the odds in the favor of having a great trek by preparing together, That benefit is HUGE.

This all brings up another issue. To what level of mastery do we expect a scout to achieve at a skill before a t-1st requirement is signed off ? The Scoutcraft skills should be improved and honed as he gains experience. If we expect them to be an expert at them before they are signed off, I see the potential for the boys to really loose interest in both performing and teaching them down the road.

 

For instance some of these tents are really difficult to set up alone. The map and compass skills are important, but do we require a mastery such that working on the orienteering MB is just a refresher.

 

The swimming MB book is one that I am still fretting about. I am a certified Y instructor and RC lifeguard, so I understand the strokes, but taking that pamphlet literally, I don't see any boy under the age of 14 having the mastery to complete it. My boys have been on a year round Y swim team for two years and that book seems to expect a very advanced whip kick.

My view: think with the end in mind. What are you trying to accomplish. More importantly, what are the SM/CC/AC trying to accomplish?

Scouting is set up so that a boy learns skills so that he can teach them to others. Those others are the scouts that come after him over the next several years. How does one become a leader? One prerequisite is to be repected by the others as someone that knows what to do and how to do it. So the question that you have to answer is what level of proiciency is needed that they boy is comfortable continuing to do it, and could teach it to the next crop of scouts a year from now? That is when he will be recognized and respected by the other scouts. This requires not only learning, but continued usage. The sign off on skills is merely a formality somewhere in the middle. the exact spot isn't important. What is important is that the other scouts can look to him as the guy to go to when they have questions or need help. Sign off of requirements and advancement are ineffective otherwise.

I'm starting to seet a picture as you add description to your situation. While I may not have everything right, Here are some thoughts. May or may not apply. I hope that this comes across as a friendly discussion, because that is my intent.

I gather your son is a recent crossover in a new scout patrol. Your son is not one of the popular kids, hence you have a concern that your troop will not give your son (and others with similar personalities) a chance to fill a POR that is needed for advancement.

You would like to see your son get an Eagle by the time he is 14 (in one posting you state the 13 or 14 is not out of line, in another, the troop your son is in scouts typically leave when they are 14. Hence it is important to you that your son not waste potentially 18 months without holding a POR.

Your troop operates with age stratified patrols rather than mixed age patrols.

Responses and random thoughts in no particular order: Consider the ages and stages of boys.

A new scout gets a good feeling from the recognition of receiving an award whether or not he put in effort to earn it. When he is older, he will not value awards that are not challenging to earn. This may be a contributing factor to your unit being a 14 and out troop.

A new scout feels good about having a title of a POR, but does not understand the responsibilities, doesn't understand the effort required. I've seen and worked with them. They see a PL leader position as one where they get to tell other scouts what to do and they have to do it. If they have not observed and worked for an older boy in a POR, how can he possibly know what scouts are supposed to do in a POR? the written description and/or being told by an adult just arent as effective.

I prefer mixed age patrols for a number of reasons, including your desire for more vertical social environment.

Scouting is a great environment for helping a geeky loner come out of his shell and blossom. But not if he is forced into positions before he has built up some experience and is ready for them. Otherwise, it will be continued frustration and avoidance of duties.

For the first year, let him learn and become expert at several camping skills – lighting fires (perhaps with a flint and steel), compass/orienteering, cooking, etc. practice and practice and use them frequently for the next year. Then next year, he will be able to teach the new crop of scouts. Becoming the “expert†in their eyes. The guy that knows what to do, how to do it, and is always asking them if there is something that he can help them with. If he does that, he will be looked up to and respected by the new scouts; perhaps even elected to a POR by them, or appointed as a Troop guide by the SM or SPL. That will do much more to achieve the aims and keep him motivated than will a rank that he rushed through, and have signoff on skills that he soon forgets. He will have real pride in himself as he can help the younger scouts.

The liikely alternative is that he will learn a lesson that POR's are necessary evils for advancement, where the holders do things that the adults make them do. Becasue a typical scout is just not ready for a POR before they are 13 or 14. I have observed this many many times. Don't give so much weight to advancement as the prime motivating factor. As your son matures, he will be much more interested in achieving things that challenge him than in things that can be whipped out in 6 months.

good luck. You may not agree with me now, and tht's OK. But if we were to talk 8 or 10 years from now, with the benefit of hindsight, you will understand what I mean.

Welcome to the club!

> Do you deny a POR even if a Scout wants to perform one, but doesn't have that dynamic personality to get elected ?

 

Look at it from a different perspective. Scouts are not denied a POR, they earn the right to serve in one, and they don't get one until they have demonstrated that they are reliable.

POR's shouldn't be given out because a scout wants one. POR's exist because the troop has a job that needs to be done on a regular basis. A scout that has shown that he is reliable is very likely to get appointed by the SPL and approved by the SM (I hope that you are not having elections for any POR other than PL and SPL; the rest of the POR's are appointed positions).

 

A scout that is unreliable (doesn't follow through on other tasks as a member of a patrol, doesn't join in willingly or volunteer for camp chores, whines about his task on duty roster, misses a lot of campouts, not fulfilling the duties of his previous POR, etc.) should not be given a POR by the SPL, nor approved by the SM. That is the scout that needs a friendly chat with the SM about why he didn't get a POR that he wanted, about cheerfully doing chores, about demonstrating trustworthiness, about how the troop needs scout leaders that actively contribute to the troop in order for the troop to survive and be a fun place for other scouts, and things he can do over the next 6 months to earn the SPL and SM's trust that he can be counted on to actually serve in a POR instead of merely wearing a patch on a sleeve.

THAT is the kind of SM conference and experience that can help a scout grow.

 

SM should be having discussions with the SPL about the importance of assigning POR's to scouts that he can count on to do the tasks, over those that try to get by with as little effort as possible, but are his friends. A mature scout will recognize and agree with that. A scout that doesn't see that probably wasn't ready to run for SPL, and if your troop is getting that type of scout getting elected as SPL and/or PL's, more coaching is needed to the troop members on what makes a good leader, and the SM actively discouraging scouts that are not ready from running for election, actively encouraging those that have demonstrated reliability to run, and coaching leaders on what to look for in a scout tht they want to appoint to a POR.

I haven't worked with a larger troop, so I may be off base, - I expect that a SM in a large troup could find enough POR's such that any scout that has demonstrated that he is reliable could have one. Have a web site? Let a scout maintain it. Most cub dens do not have den chiefs. A large troop should have enough parents to give one or two the responsibility of talking with den leaders to promote the use of a den chief. A troop is only limited in the number of den chief positions by the number of dens in the area.

Though in a typical troop, most of the young scouts are still learning to be contributing members of their patrol and troop.

> Do you deny a POR even if a Scout wants to perform one, but doesn't have that dynamic personality to get elected ?

Look at it from a different perspective. Scouts are not denied a POR, they earn the right to serve in one, and they don't get one until they have demonstrated that they are reliable.

POR's shouldn't be given out because a scout wants one. POR's exist because the troop has a job that needs to be done on a regular basis. A scout that has shown that he is reliable is very likely to get appointed by the SPL and approved by the SM (I hope that you are not having elections for any POR other than PL and SPL; the rest of the POR's are appointed positions).

A scout that is unreliable (doesn't follow through on other tasks as a member of a patrol, doesn't join in willingly or volunteer for camp chores, whines about his task on duty roster, misses a lot of campouts, not fulfilling the duties of his previous POR, etc.) should not be given a POR by the SPL, nor approved by the SM. That is the scout that needs a friendly chat with the SM about why he didn't get a POR that he wanted, about cheerfully doing chores, about demonstrating trustworthiness, about how the troop needs scout leaders that actively contribute to the troop in order for the troop to survive and be a fun place for other scouts, and things he can do over the next 6 months to earn the SPL and SM's trust that he can be counted on to actually serve in a POR instead of merely wearing a patch on a sleeve.

THAT is the kind of SM conference and experience that can help a scout grow.

>If you do not credit the scout the second the parents thinks you should, they call the CC and then District or council to get satisfaction.....

If you have discussed vision of how your troop will implement the methods to achieve the aims with the CC, Advancement chair, COR, then a call to the CC is a non-issue, because s/he has your back. If the vision is generally following BSA program, a call to the DE may result in a visit from a unit commissioner, but they will back you also. Next step is a meeting with the offending parent(s). Explain again to the parents that their vision of advancement is not in line with the troop's vision, and that they have a choice of accepting the troop's vision, or of finding another unit. And that yuo will be happy to have the AC transfer any records.

If you haven't already been communicating expectations with families, start to do so frequently. At special parents meetings, at COH's, at informal chats with parents as after they have brought their son for a weekend campout and everyone is waiting for the patrol leaders to organize their patorls and get the individual and patrol gear loaded into vehicles. Note that other parents are watching what you do. Are you standing by the troo's vision, or are you giving in to an overbearing parent. Whichever way you go, that is the reputation that your troop will develop. Which will affect the type of family that is attracted to your unit. If you stand firm will lose some, but gain others that want their son to be in a program that helps him grow to a greater extent. If you bend to the overbearing parent, you will lose some families that have higher standards for their son, and continue to attract families that want that type of program.

You do have a difficult challenge with a small troop of boys 13 and under. For perspective, consider how BSA has structured boy scouting for an age range of 10 to 17. Boys join at 10 or 11, wanting to have fun. They first learn to be led. Then they learn to be active participants, followed by taking on continued increasing responsibility for tasks within their patrol and troop. Then eventually, leading others. By the time they are ready to lead others, they have observed other boys leading, and have an idea what they need to do. In a new troop where all the scouts are young, some of them have to skip the steps of being led, of the gradual assumption of increasing responsibility, and are immediately in the position where they are given responsibility for which they are not yet ready. And without the benefit of observing an older boy leading.

Boys prior to puberty live in the moment. They typically dont associate their lack of preparation during the week with a failed meeting the next Monday night. By Tuesday they have forgotten what they need to do. A reminder call on Wednesday may result in sending out a mass text as you saw, but may not result in any of the boys spending more than a minute or two on any preparation. Next Monday is an eternity. You may need to have each of the SM/ASM meet one on one with the various position holders and give hands-on assistance for several months. For example, the SM spend an hour with the PL one night a week to put the meeting plan together, and sit with him while he calls whomever is on the program (example: calling someone on the city council to come to a future troop meeting to talk). An ASM or committee member meet with the scribe the night after the troop meeting to be there while he completes the meeting minutes and publishes them. Note that these are all things that can be accomplished with a conversation with an older scout, but requires much more one-on-one with a younger scout until he starts to achieve the initiative on his own.

Let me toss out another idea: forget about advancement for the next couple of years. Boys joined a troop at 10 or 11 for fun and excitement. In their imaginations, they want to be able to live in the woods by themselves (read the book "My Side of the Mountain"). A boy wants to find a buried treasure, live off the land, slay a dragon, be a hero. Help them Focus on outdoor skills,constantly reviewing and building on them incrementally through fun games, competitions, and outings. Don't make orienteering an activity to meet a requirement, make it a search for a long lost pirate's treasure. And the next month, a search for a crashed military plane with soldiers that need the aid of boy scouts that know first aid.

One additional comment - you asked for thoughts on a meeting plan where sewing was a backup plan, because it would be an unpleasant activity resulting from lack of planning. My thought is that sewing on a patch shouldn't be presented a punishment. I don't think it is even a good group activity. rather, I think it is an opportunity for one-on-one time with a scout during a weekend camp out. It's a kind of thing where you can say to a scout "I see you dont have your 2nd class patch on your shirt. How about if I help you?" Then go sit under an oak tree, show him how to get started, let him try, perhaps take turns for a while, and talk about whatever comes up. You would be amazed at what a boy will talk about while having an informal chat in a one-on-one situation while distracted by something else like sewing on a patch.

Good Luck; it will take a while, you will be frustrated for a while; keep in mind how you want things 3 or 4 years from now, because it will take that long.

Pack,

Just a hunch, but I would bet that IM Kathy was referring to the drug use situation of the original poster, not to lieing in general.

Namu,

Let me explain myself which I should have done initially. Upon rereading my previous post, I see that it could come across as flip. intend. I apologize for that.

Fundraisers aren't just about raising money to fund a trip. They are an opportunity for boys to earn their own way. Holding a MB day appears to be a way for adults to earn the way for the scouts. While I suppose that scouts could direct attendees to various classes or prepare and serve an included lunch to all the attendees, I'm not seeing how a MB day fundraiser provides a way for scouts to earn their own way with adult help, but rather, some limited opportunity for scouts to help adults earn their way for them.

As far as why not a MB day? Beavah hints at it. Take some time and read the MB training materials on BSA's web site. MB days circumvent many of the benefits of the MB program that BSA describes. I recognize that not everyone buys into the benefits of the process laid out by BSA.

To your point that other troops are raising money by holding MB days - I've never been one for "everyone else is doing it, so we might as well do it to". I do recognize that perhaps that makes me an old traditionalist fuddy-duddy that doesn't recognize the changes in todays world, where the destination of receiving a MB is more important than the journey of getting there. (I do recognize that there are a few MB's with limited counselors, where scouts would otherwise have no opportunity to meet with a specialist such as a nuclear physicist; though that is more an exception that not).

You mention that it is your goal to send the troop to Gilwell. That is a great goal, and perhaps the expense of the trip justifies having fundraisers done by adults; or perhaps this is a supplement to fundraisers where scouts are earning a significant portion of their own money to fund their trip. I hope that the scouts are seeing a trip to Gilwell as their goal rather than yours, and that you can excite them sufficiently that they work hard to raise a significant portion of their own funds.

Good luck

VV

OK, color me confused here. Scouts obviously cant teach MB's. How are they earning the money?

Mom2Eli,

Your description brings back memories. I was a new scoutmaster, and had a boy like this. Not only did he not try to get along, he would try and provoke the other boys in a passive-aggressive sort of way. Couple of examples: he would sit at a table with his patrol and place his arm on the table so that it would lie directly in front of another scout, until he was able to get a reaction. At clean up time after meals, he just disappeared without anyone seeing him leave. Despite repeated talks about buddy system, he would go off on his own. He was aware when others were keeping an eye on him, and when they weren't. Almost caused a "lost boy" drill at summer camp, because he noticed when I was distracted at a camp assembly, and chose that moment to slip off by himself. "But I had to go to the bathroom, Mr. veni!"

Over time as I became better at the SM role and better understood the boys, I understood that he was manipulating to get the attention he wanted. It was obvious that he didn't like the whole experience of camping, and did not respect his patrol and troop mates enough to do his part.

Something to be careful of is that other scouts will start to find scouting unpleasant because of a boy like this, and stop coming, because they don't know how to handle this situation. Don't wait until other boys start to leave.

After several discussions with the family about the boy's interest in scouting, we recommended that they consider another troop, because he had alienated the other scouts to a degree that it did not look like it . It was a difficult conversation, because the Father was an Eagle scout, and was very active on the troop committee.

Turned out that the boy didn't really like scouting, just the BSA advancement bling. He liked music, and when allowed to spend more time with singing groups, he was much happier. It was a much better fit for him. Have similar chats with the boy and his family about the boy's interests, and help transplant him into the type of environment where he can blossom.

SoloTS,

You've got some good replies, here are some random, though related thoughts.

Sit down with the CC, Advancement Chair, and Charter Org Rep and discuss what expectations are for scouts in this troop. Ask for feedback from them.

Get everyone's views out, and come to a common understanding of what you expect from scouts in this troop; particularily in the area of scout spirit.

(some people believe that scout spirit is a "gimmee", others expect not just the avoidance of bad behavior, but the demonstration of positive behavior, at an increasing level comensurate with rank).

Then sit down with your ASM(s) and work out a program that includes elements that provide the opportunity for the boys to rise to those expectations. Sit down with each scout and explain expectations in a friendly, mentoring kind of way. At SM conferences ask probing questions, explain expectations, and, for a SM conference in preparation for a BOR, if you are unsure that the boy has demonstrated the expectations for scout spirit in the way that you agreed with CC, Adv chair and COR, then don't sign the scout spirit requirement, tell him that you dont think that he is ready for a BOR, explain why, and talk about what you need to observe for you to agree that he is demonstrating scout spirit.

If I had been the advancement chair, I would likely have come to you after the BOR to give you feedback that the BOR felt that this candidate was weak, and have a discussion as to whether this was just a bad night for this scout, or if you and others had noticed a similar lack of interest in making the troop better, in courtesy to others (i.e., the responses to the BOR). It certainly is possible that a member of the BOR has a bad relationship with this particular scout, and the scout was acting out because of it. You can probably find out if that was the case with a few conversations with others. And if the scout had always been sharp and attentive during troop meetings and activities, making his behaviour at the BOR uncharacteristic. If the rudeness that he demonstrated to the BOR was uncharacteristic of him, then have a quiet conversation with him about what is going on in his life; you may find that there is something that is troubling him, and you can help him by bringing it to the surface. Then meet with the advanc chair, explain the situation, ask for another BOR for the scout. And prep the scout about expected behaviour at the BOR; that he should look and act proud. If the scout's behaviour was not uncharacteristic for him, mentor the scout and help him self-evaluate and look within himself. Try to remember that advancement is a method to use to achieve the aims, and if scouts are advancing without demonstrating continued improvement in character, citizenship, and fitness, then you will need to evaluate if your troop adult leaders are using the method to its full advantage.

Note that the scout may simply not be motivated by advancement, and perhaps even think that the whole advancement method is a game run by adults, particularily if he has seen other scouts get lauded and awarded that the rest of the boys in the troop don't think met the requirements. Or it could be that the scout just had a bad day. You won't know until you sit with the scout and have a heart to heart discussion. A discussion with this particular scout has the potential to reveal a lot about the troop that you, as an adult, simply weren't aware of.

Good Luck