Twocubdad

I'm with Venivedi's version, although I think we're all describing very subtle differences of the same thing. I think you misunderstand how activities and advancement work in Boy Scouts, Fish. Except for a few campouts with the new Scouts in the spring, it's rare that we say, okay Scouts gather around, we're going to work on requirement/skill X. Advancement should grow organically from activities. We don't have cooking classes, we may have an "Iron Chef" weekend where the focus is on cooking, but not a class. If we're doing it right, most campouts are going to look like what you describe.

The image of waking up at dawn and watching sunrise over a mist-coverd mountain stream is an adult thing. A 16-year-old's version of that fantasy is watching the gasoline vapors shimmering off a mud splattered ATV. Every tried watching old movies with teenagers? Impossible. We do an all-night movie lock-in following TLT every year. The adults get to pick one movie, usually some classic we think the boys "ought" to see. One year we showed "Cool Hand Luke" which the adults all thought the boys would go crazy for. Very few of the boys made it to the end. Most left during the scene where Luke's mother visits him. Yeah, it's a long, boring scene but explains the rest of the movie. They missed the hard-boiled egg scene, all the escape scenes. Not near enough action. Boys are accustomed to constant entertainment. Compare "Bullet" which includes one of the greatest car chases in movie history to the new "Gone in 60 Seconds". Boys won't sit still through the bulk of "Bullet" to catch the 5-6 minute chase, where as "Gone" is one long, two-hour chase. Same applies to campouts. My experience is boys must have planned activities. Not usually teaching or classes, but out doing stuff -- canoeing, climbing, shooting, etc. I'll go as far as to say one of the reasons my guys aren't particularly into backpacking is that they don't really see the benefit to being able to hike into some remote area to camp. Where's the payoff? Why do they want to hike 7 miles just to sit around a campfire when you can park the troop trailer in the campsite adjacent to the shooting range? Over the years we've tried totally unstructured campouts. Total disasters. Idle hands and all. The only time I've called parents and sent boys home have been from these campouts. Even so, on our normal campouts with planned activities, there's plenty of down time for the boys to do their thing and just hang out. But if that's all they have to do it's not going to be good.

But that only works if the horse has been to WoodBadge. Do you handle it differently if the horse is running away from a Cub Scout soccer game? "I used to be a runaway horse and a good ol' runaway too...."

So in a concurrent thread, SeattlePioneer is asking about activities for Webelos and mentions specifically that his district is trying to involve Webelos in a Boy Scout district camporee. Barry, EagleDad, mentioned that doing so in his district just about killed the camporee as the Boy Scout activities got watered down to a Webelos recruitment events. I asked if SeattlePioneer is aware that the Guide to Safe Scouting prohibits Webelos from camping at Boy Scout camporees. Do I understand you feel that was inappropriate? What would you prefer we kept quite if favor of more positive feedback? How could we have communicated our concerns in a way more acceptable to you?

It's killing me -- how DO you stop a runaway horse?

The explaination I've heard is the prohibition on Webelos at Boy Scout camporees is that the camporees should be geared to Boy Scout activities which may be inappropriate for Webelos -- rifle and shotgun shooting, sailing, motorboating, water skiing, orienteering, rappelling, etc. After pulling your Webelos away from several of these activities where the Boy Scouts are clearly having the time of their lives, the temeptation to bend the rules just a bit can become very strong. You could design a camporee to accommodate the Webelos, but risk significantly undershooting the Boy Scout's activities, which is probably what Barry's district experienced. Or you could run parallel activies for both the Webelos and Boy Scouts, but then what's the point? Conversely, when we invite the Webelos II dens from our brother pack for a campout with the troop, the program is specifically designed for the Webelos and our focus for the weekend is on the Webelos. And besides, 'dems da rules!

I think the greatest attribute of these forums is the classic free exchange of ideas such that the best ones float to the top. And in the end, everyone gets to make up their own minds. I found this site fairly early on as a Scout leader and will admit I learned far more from this site that from official BSA sources. While any number of you are saying to yourselves, "that explains a lot," let me make a couple points. First, this place isn't for woosies. Slogging your way through the free exchange of ideas to find the nuggets requires a grounding in the principles of the program and a little bit of smarts. And don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Secondly, BSA does a remarkably poor job of telling folks what they really need to know. Basic training is really designed to keep your and your Scout Executive off the 6 o'clock news. You will NEVER go to a BSA meeting where the sort of free-flowing, rough-and-tumble exchange of ideas such as this is encouraged. Scout professionals and Roundtable Commissioners are scared to death of them because they always devolve into **** sessions -- just like this one. So they throw the baby -- and the ideas -- out with the bath water. The loss there is the ability of experienced Scouters to share those experiences in an honest way with the newbies. Early in my career as a Scoutmaster I ran into a rather dicey situation with a Scout. I sought and received some very good help and advice from a veteran SM in a nearby troop. Some time later, I took a supplemental training class on the same topic from this fellow. It was a complete sellout, totally down the company line and 180 degrees from the advice I was given privately. Here your get the full story, warts and all. I'll also note that one of the reasons for the negativity is that many folks will come here with problems when they either don't know where else to turn or because of the anonymity the site offers. This frequently involves airing of dirty laundry you're probably not going to see at you typical Roundtable. And anyone who thinks the level of discourse here is unscout-like really needs to checkout some non-Scouting sites. I think we are remarkably well behaved. Although the site is designed for adult scouters, I would be perfectly comfortable with any of my Scouts reading over my shoulder. Where else on the Internet will you see an adult include "h-e-double-hockey-sticks" in a post?

You are aware that per G2SS Webelos dens may only visit, not camp, at Boy Scout camporees, right?

Annual dues are $90 per year, which seems to be a little below most troops in the area. Most are $100-$125 with a few higher. However most troop activities are ala carte. Patrols divvy-up food costs for all campouts, for example. We do NO troop fundraising, although Scouts who participate in popcorn or another council-level fundraiser apply 100% of their profits against dues. (We don't get into all the scout account stuff, just apply the profits like a payment.) One thing we do which is different from other troops is to charge a one-time equipment fee of $125 to all new members. We started this a few years ago when we were in dire need of some serious equipment upgrades, and due to rapidly expanding membership. We now have what we need but continue to charge the fee to cover replacement costs and out of fairness to the existing members who paid-in to buy the troop gear in the first place. We allow families to pay the fee over two years if they want. We also have a package of stuff (hat, necker, shirt, name tags, etc.) worth over $30 we give to every new Scout. I'll also add we're pretty generous with financial assistance and have a huge uniform closet which is open to anyone.

JKC -- I absolutely agree, contrition comes from the heart, but being able to communicate that contrition in the form of an apology is a learned skill. I would call it a skill which goes to the heart of our mission and we should help the boys learn it when the opportunity presents itself. An apology is an outward expression of all those things we hope are going on in some's head -- contrition, remorse, empathy, understanding their own actions and learning from them. Like a lot of things, an apology is more about the person offering the apology than the one receiving it. I have apologized to my Scouts many times. Because I want to set a good example for the bosy, when an apology is necessary I will often make a bigger deal of it that is warranted. I want the boys to know that no one is above making an apology, even the Scoutmaster. If nothing else, it's an important part of leadership the boys need to understand. Look -- this whole topic is much more complicated and nuanced that could possibly be adequately explained on a forum like this. Of course if you tell a kid he's suspended for a month, but you'll cut it to two weeks if he apologizes, you're going to get a forced, insincere apology. Or if in the middle of a fire-fight you scream at your kid, "YOU APOLOGIZE TO YOUR BROTHER RIGHT NOW!", you'll only get a canned, "Sorry" with about as much thought behind the apology as you put into your demand. We need to be smarter than that. Like many things we do to teach and counsel boys, eliciting a sincere apology requires understanding, compassion, finess and a bit of art. Take Moose's example with her son. If I were the principal and your son came to me and explained his feelings about apologizing to the bullies, I would not have expected him to apologize. (Personally, your son should have been given a commendation for helping clean up the school, but that's another thread.) I do think it would have been reasonable -- and a pretty classy -- for your son to apologize to the principal for the way in which he handled the problem, but I can very easily understand your son's position toward the bullies. An apology is not always warranted. And yes, Seattle, I will apologize to you and anyone else who may have been offended by my quip about a hampster in the microwave. I understand that some people are very sensitive to any suggestion of animal abuse. Long-time forum members know I and others often use humor and sarcasm to make a point. Unfortunately sarcasm and humor translates poorly in a written medium such as this. But I honestly belive my comments were sufficiently "over the top" that they were fairly obviously intended sarcastically. I will ask that you consider these factors while reading future posts. Regardless, if my attempt at humor bothered you, I sincerely apologize.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

From the other things you've written about your council, it doesn't surprise me.

Um, S.P., dude, the hampster thing was a joke, a silly illustration of the point. I know you guys in Seattle are really big into coffee, but maybe you need to cut back. (That was a joke too.) And Moose, your situation goes well beyond the need for an apology. Lot of issues there. But have been an opportunity to teach your son the art of the non-apology apology, as in, "I'm sorry you're a $^@@%*&@!" (That, I was serious about.)

Your primary recruiting venues are swimming pools, little league games and soccer games and one of your main problems is families are more committed to sports? Hmmmmmmmm.... Where in your community can you go which will allow you to reach boys who are going to be more focused on Scouting? Off hand, since you're chartered to the American Legion, maybe you could recruit at non-LDS churches? Maybe some would let you recruit during VBS in the summer? We receive a great deal of cooperation from schools. We are allowed to make classroom presentations and hold recruiting meetings in school cafeterias. Still, one of our best recruitment opportunities are at PTA "meet your teacher" nights before school starts. We get a very broad cross section of the community (not just the jocks) and hit both parents and boys. Personally, I like them because it gives me a quick one-on-one with the boy and parents. We would have a different pack set up a table at each main entrance to the school, but all had info sheets for all packs.

Kids need to be taught how to apologize. "Apologize to your brother!." "Sor-ry." Doesn't really get it. Any number of times I've taken the opportunity to teach my boys and kids in the troop how to apologize. I'll spell out what I expect: Apologize, say what you did wrong, explain why it was wrong, promise not to do it again, then apologize again "Bob, I'm really sorry I punched you in the mouth. When you put my hampster in the microwave I really got angry and let my emotions get the better of me. I need to learn to control my temper and will do my best not to let it happen again. I sincerely apologize for that and for scratching your new Boston album." (Not that there's any personal baggage here or anything.) They may be lying through their teeth and really wish they had broken the little snot's nose, but they have at least had to think about what they did and maybe learned a little something. It may take 30 years, but you never know when one of these little kernels will resurface. More practically, if I'm dealing with boys in the troop, the apology needs to come before we consider any ramifications. A sincere apology, demonstrated contrition and remorse and certainly restitution if appropriate (and quite frankly the parents' attitude toward the whole situation) will have a great deal of bearing on the final outcome

Jer-RY, Jer-RY, Jer-RY, Jer-RY!

I see one post I would say crosses the line with some name calling. Perhaps you should address that poster instead of shutting down a thread when you don't like the responses. Moose -- after the heartache and turmoil of changing packs twice, would you go back? I'm guessing not. And you're only describing your experiences as 'not a good fit' not the conflict 5scoutmom describes. So after going through all this -- after dragging us through a 100-post thread -- if you jump right back into the fire I think you can expect to catch some flack for it. As someone else posted recently, they have a name for doing the same thing repeatedly yet expecting different results.

So--- should leaders look for ways to make meetings and activities fun for parents? Not just no, but hell no. I think you're missing OGE's point, S.P. Scouting absolutely needs to be fun for the the folks who are there, volunteering their time to offer the program for the boys. If it's not, they won't be volunteering for too long. But as an adult leader do I need to invest time and effort to make it fun for the uninvolved parents? Heck no. That's not even remotely our purpose. Yes, I'm drawing a huge line between the volunteers and non-volunteer parents. As a unit leader part of my job is looking out for my people, just like we teach patrol leaders. If I want them to keep coming back, on balance they better feel appreciated and draw pleasure from their time in the program, whether its the satisfaction from the altruistic service to the boys or the fellowship and comraderie of associating with like-minded individuals or enjoying camping and the other outdoor activities. That enjoyment should be intrinsic to the program for those folk who choose to volunteer. If it's not you would be better coaching little league or joining the Lion's Club.

Thanks, O.T., very helpful. So the understanding I'm developing is this: Currently we have 6-8 people with full access to the .net data -- advancement chairman does adv. reports and uploads to the council, membership chairman maintains personal data, Troop Scribe maintains activities and attendance, etc., etc. We probably need to keep that whole system in place with those folks doing what they need to do. More or less separate from that system, on a regular basis the administrator syncs the data those folks are maintaining with the .web side of things (I suppose there is a reason this isn't automatic, but whatever). From there, everyone else in the troop as access the the database, at some specified privacy/security level. The only private info most folks will see will be their own. There is some limited abililty for everyone to make changes. You may go in and change you own email address, for example. But, most of the real data management will continue on the .net side. (I understand this isn't necessarily the only way to use this, but I'm trying to understand both how the system works AND how our troop would most efficiently use it.) The advantage of all this is we get a troop web site (which we don't currently have) which in addition to all the usual photos and stuff, includes the ability for all troop members to access common directory information (rosters, phone lists, etc.), access and update their own info including advancement records, easier access to the troop calendar and all the networking functions like email, forums, etc. How am I doing?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

I don't really understand the manual sync thing. (Cut me some slack here, I'm just a dumb carpenter.) Why are you still running both systems?

Let me add this to the conversation -- From the afore-mentioned Sports Illustrated article, youth baseball has a 60% dropout rate after six years. Sound familiar? So while we true-believers here worry about the loss of every scout, is a 70% drop out rate really a problem, or is that the standard curve for most youth activities?

Contact your district advancement chairman. The young man may well be eligible for a Certificate of Merit. Certificates may be awarded either locally or nationally for "significant acts of service that is deserving of recognition." The local certificates are awarded by the council advancement committee. I believe most committees will (or in my opinion should) consider a Scouts age in looking at the award. What may not be worthy of recognition for a 17-year-old Eagle Scout may well merit recognition for a Tiger Cub. Can't hurt to ask.

What does TM.net do that the TM.Web doesn't? I had assumed TM.Web was just an add-on giving you the added communications, calendar and email capabilities. If you were to go to .Web and drop .Net, what would you lose?

Yeah, who's driving this bus? If the situation with the troop is as you describe, younger son doesn't get to make the decision. I wouldn't involve my child or my family in this foolishness another minute.

Interesting. Do you use the online payment option? What does a troop have to do to accept online payments?

Anyone using the TroopMaster Web add on? What do you think of it? We use TroopMaster for membership and advancement records, but have a separate ScoutTrack package for calendar and emails. Having two is a pain.