Twocubdad

Agreed, Bob, up to a point. The PL should try some of the tactics mentioned above, like loading the kid up with chores earlier in the weekend. But if the root problem here is the dad, that's an adult problem which should be handled by the adult leaders.

Sounds like you're walking the walk -- or at least getting ready to.

There are all sorts of resources for enlivening Pack meeting. Scouter.com has links as does the Virtural Leader Book at http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9152/ as does www.cubmaster.org .

Good luck and have fun!

There is a "Virtural Cub Scout Leader Handbook" on line, but it's not the same as the actual Handbook published by BSA. The virtural book is at http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9152/ and is a great resource, but you still should have a copy of the real book.

Our pack has never a separate set of by-laws. We've never run into an issue where the basic SOP for all packs hasn't sufficed.

Mark, Rooster -- I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. And for that reason, if TJ confided with me, he would present me with a very tough moral delima. Violating some abstract policy handed down by a faceless board in Texas wouldn't bother me too much(frankly, we do that all the time ), but as a Committee Chairman, I have obligations to the others in my unit and my Chartered Organization. I've never had that conversation with them, but I doubt they share my views on subject. While I, too would welcome TJ at my campfire, as a unit leader I have to recognize that it ain't necessarily "my" campfire.

For that reason, I hope TJ is very judicious in who he confides this information. Even people who agree with him and are sympathetic to his circumstance can be put in a difficult situation. If one of my den leaders confided with me that they are "gay," I'd probably tell them that I also try to be a happy person since them eighth point of the Scout Law is "Cheerful." Beyond that, I wouldn't want to continue the conversation.

But seriously, you guys need to recognize that in the face of what some regard as an unjust policy, people are going to parse words and look for loopholes. That's just human nature. Otherwise, the history of jurisprudence would have ended with the Ten Commandments. There may also be some feeling of civil disobedience involved, too.

I don't think it realistic -- or even rational -- to issue a policy against homosexuals and then expect everyone to immediately fall on their swords.

That's interesting. Ultimately, BSA will have to deal with the same thing and develop a similar policy.

Rooster, I hope you don't mind if I take a crack at answering your question, "Why do you join an organization that stands for one thing, and then fight to make it stand for another? "

If I thought that what Scouting stands for is the discrimination or exclusion of people based solely on their sexual orientation, I would resign my membership today. BSA's policy against homosexual members is a relatively insignificant fraction of what Scouting is all about. I won't take the time for an essay on what I DO think Scouting stands for, but if you will grab a copy of your handbook and read the 10 Purposes of Scouting, that pretty well summmarizes it for me.

That I disagree with BSA's membership policy doesn't change my fervent belief in those purposes one bit. I can also tell you that I can raise my right hand in the Scout Sign and recite both the Law and Promise without reservation. My belief that homosexuality is not per se immoral in no way comprimises my ability to do my "Duty to God" or my own morality.

While I'm on a roll, let me also air something that has been stuck in my craw for quite a while -- this whole "love it or leave it" notion that those of us who disagree with the BSA membership policy should quit and start our own program. Where in the world does anyone get the idea that to be a member of an organization you must be in 100 percent, lock-step agreement with all its policies and precepts? For the record, I'll also tell you I don't like the uniform pants, how our local council handles training, or the new Simba Tiger Cub logo.

If I am correctly remembering what I have read, the first internal memos regarding homosexual members appeared in 1972 and the first policy statement in 1978. My membership in BSA pre-dates that time by 5 to 10 years. So I am hardly joining the organization and then trying to change it. I joined Scouts in 1967. Since then I have contributed thousands of hours and thousands of dollars to Scouting. If you're telling me that because of my disagreement with the above policies that my involvement is no longer needed, then fine. I'll be glad to transfer my membership to this new, alternate organization just as soon as BSA can tell me how they plan to transfer my time, money and goodwill I've invested along with me.

But maybe with tens of thousands of local units there can be some options for how the program is applied. (There is precidence for this with the LDS units.) Maybe in an organization with 5 million members, there is room for some varying opinions. Maybe a little dissent, a little debate and a little questioning of the status quo serves to make the organization stronger.

I yield the soapbox.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

It is instructive to see what the policy does and does not say. Since the Dale decision, BSA has apparently changed the policy from banning "known and avowed homosexuals" to banning only "avowed homosexuals." That's a huge difference and is where I was heading with my earlier questions. The Scout Executive may have knowledge that TJ is gay, but unless TJ acknowledges it, under the current policy I don't think the SE can bannish TJ solely on the information he has. (Parenthetically, I think the fact that TJ has confided with a Scout Executive friend rises to the level of being an "avowed homosexual" if the friend decided to come forward.)

If it ever went to court, I think a judge would require some formal affirmation before saying someone meets the criteria of being "avowed." As TJ pointed out in one of his early posts, the only criteria BSA has given was in the text of the Supreme Court case, which essentially stated the position as "don't advocate against the BSA opinion in front of Scouts".

Some of you will argue that under Dale, BSA can void a membership for good cause, bad cause or no cause. True enough. But I trust that the powers-that-be within BSA would not be that capricious. It also appears that from a practical standpoint, that they don't want this whole issue to became a witch hunt and would back off for no other reason than that.

You're absolutely right. But would that be the end of the conversation?

A couple of qustions for everyone to chew on.

1) Local Council Executive comes to TJ and says, "TJ, I understand you have told several people you are gay and in fact have been in a relationship with a man for the past 2.5 years. Is that right?" TJ replies, "With all due respect, Mr. SE, that's none of your business." At that point, what does the SE do? Is TJ in or out (no pun intended)?

2) In some of the early replies to TJ's original post, several of you criticized the other Scouters who know about TJ's orientation but have done and said nothing. Why do they have an obligation to "out" TJ?

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Acco -- that's pretty much the way we handle it. We segregate rank awards and do a fancier ceremony for them. Then each den leader brings their den forward and presents all the beltloops, pins, etc., to the den, reading off a list of what each boy earned. Unfortunately, we lump the Webelos pins into that quickie presentation. What I'm looking for is some way to highlight the importance of Webelos pins equal to the work they require.

We've talked about presenting beltloops at den meetings, to make more time to present the Webelos pins. But I'm not sure that's fair to the younger boys who don't earn anything but beltloops for the better part of the year.

In my opinion, the primary purpose of the Pack meeting is to recognize the boys for the work they've completed. It's a challenge to keep it interesting for the audience, but one way to do that is to make sure most every boy is advancing and earning awards.

It bothers me somewhat that the author of this article would twist and distort the facts to try and make a cheap political point. But it really bothers me that it was done so poorly.

Even the internal logic of the story doesn't make sense. How is this a "shadow" government if the real goverment has presumably been annhilated?

But beyond that, they don't even have their facts right. The "most sinsiter" indictment in the article is that the administration is failing to follow proscribed president succession by not including the Speaker of the House and President Pro Temp of the Senate in the new government. But the fact is that each branch of government is responsible for it's own emergency plans. The Greenbriar, WVa, facility was in fact built for Congress to set up shop in the event of nuclear attack. Since it's cover was blown 5 or 6 years ago, Congress has presumably made other contigency plans.

I think the administration is using the war on terrorism as cover to trample on our privacy and liberties, but this article is bush league (no pun intended).

Does anyone have any ideas for sprucing up the presentation of WAPs? We were talking in our committee meeting that we need some way of differentiating between, say, Citizenship beltloop and Citizen Webelos Activity Pin as the latter involves a heck of a lot more work.

Our Cubmaster typically asks the boys questions and tries to get them to talk about what they did to earn the pins. Surprisingly, "I dunno" is apparently a requirement for most all the pins.

What do any of the rest of you do to give the WAPs more weight?

I'd guess the explosion related to the size and thickness of the slab. A normal, 4-inch slab (like for a house foundation, sidewalk or driveway) would have probably just cracked. A fire in the center of the slab would have created a lot of thermal expansion in a highly concentrated area. Because of the mass of the rest of the slab prevented that area from moving, the pressure built up and the only place it had to go was up and out -- and in a fairly violent manner. If there was a lot of moisture in the concrete, that could have been a factor, too.

Folks don't realize the force with which concrete can move. Our CO has a brick wall which runs the length of the cemetery, several hundred feet long. But because it was built without expansion joints, in one section of the wall the bricks have been crushed end for end by the movement of the wall.

Question for you: even without the explosion, wouldn't the burn marks left on the concrete have been a problem to for LNT?

Bob -- I not sure what that quote is from, and I'm not really sure what it means, except for the last line. There is a paragraph in the Insignia Guide dealing with "excess insignia" which says that only uniforms should be kept neat and uncluttered and that only insignia designating one's current status should be worn.

I agree with you completely that one purpose of wearing all the regalia is to pique the interest of the boys. I love to have kids come up and ask me what all the stars, knots and patches are for. Particularly with my cubs, it gives me a chance to "sell" some of the aspects of Boy Scouting they may not yet know about, like Philmont, jamborees and OA.

As to your questions, I believe most OA flaps are produced by the individual lodges, so if there is some variation in the size of the flap, that's probably between the lodge and the manufacturer. I don't know if there is an absolute size specification for flaps. I would guess that each manufacturer has it's own template.

According to the book, local councils may adopt special badges and insignia, but the purpose and design must be approved by National in advance. Although the IG doesn't say this, I think as a practical matter, the local Scout Executive is authorized to approve most local temporary badges.

I don't know of any special requirements for neckerchiefs, but I'd say they fall under the same guidelines.

And as to the accountability of the Uniform cops, I'd say they are beholden only to the Insignia Guide and peer review by other members of the fraternity.

(Break out the shovels boys, it's getting deep in here. )

Mk's right that you're local council is the best bet. But Eagle Scout info is maintained at National in Irving, TX.

Eisley's right that this thread was supposed to be about military surplus equipment, not uniforms. But here's the link to the page Acco40 mentions about the rational behind BSA's policy on cammo.

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/camo.htm

Particulars of the case aside, I'm just glad to read that Justice Scalia hasn't already made up his mind on the case before hearing all the arguments.

I think one of the best parts of PWD is that it is a project parents and son are supposed to do TOGETHER. What's the point of the program if all by themselves boys do is slap on a couple coats of paint and hammer the wheels on?

Yes, my boys and I spend a lot of time working on our cars. Do I spend more time working on the cars than other parents? I'm sure I do. I'll also wager that my kids spend more time working on their cars than most other boys.

Our pack PWD tends to be competitive so there are always a lot of fast cars. We spend most of our efforts on design and one of my boys has won either Best Design or Most Creative the past three years (those awards are voted on by the other Scouts). I have my boys start by designing their cars -- all by themselves -- out of Playdoh. We then work together to build the car in wood.

I'll also admit that I have a killer workshop -- makes that Norm guy on PBS look underfunded. I've been a woodworking nut since shop class in junior high, so this is right up my alley. But we share the wealth, too. We always host a PWD workshop at our house and invite families to come over and use any of the equipment the need.

Formation? Are you kidding? If you can get them to stay on the parade route, you're doing great.

Depending on the age of your boys and the length of the route, I'd have serious concerns. Our local Christmas parade is about 3 miles and is too much for most tigers and some of the wolves. We have truck and trailer following the boys who march to pick up the stragglers. Usually the boys come and go, taking turns riding. We have strict rules about when to get on and off the trailer, with adults assisting and serving as extra eyes for the driver.

About flags -- they can get heavy over the route of the parade. At the beginning of the route, the boys are scrambling to carry the flags. By the end, they're looking for someone to give it to. We thought the holders you wear around the neck would help. The don't. While the transfer part of the weight, because the boys end up carrying the flag more toward the bottom of the pole, they have a lot more leverage working against them. If I could make something to carry the flags with, it would a strap the boys could wear diagonally across their chest and clip to the flag pole down by their left side with part of the pole behind and to their left. That way they're holding the middle of the pole and have leverage working for them.

Jousting at windmills again, eh Quixote?

Sounds like you're trying to put on the paint too thickly. I'm guessing the grooves you mention are actually runs or sags. At this point, you need to sand the car down to a smooth finish, if not all the way down to bare wood. Sand paper and elbow grease. Chemical strippers will just make more of a mess.

Once you have a good smooth finish, go back with the same enamel paint. (Primer really doesn't help at this point.) Apply several very light, thin coats. Keep the paint can at least 12 inches back from the car. Use short, quick passes. Less really is more in this case.

In the future (or if you strip the entire car down to bare wood) try using model laquer or epoxy spray paint. Both dry faster (especially the laquer) before dust and crud can settle and stick to the wet paint. They also go on thinner.

Here's another trick. Cut and bend a wire coat hanger so that you can insert two points of wire into the axels slots of the car. You can then hold the car by the hanger while painting and then hang the car up to dry. No finger prints and no waiting for the top to dry so you can paint the bottom.

Officer TCD here, reporting that Varisty Scouts may wear the Varsity "V" on the bottom left of their merit badge sash.

I also remember that it used to be allowed to wear up to three temporary patches on the BACK of the merit badge sash. I can't find that in the current Insignia Guide, so I don't know if that is still legal or not.

Oh by the way, the IG also says that temporary patches worn on the right pocket should not overhang the pocket. The last district activity patch I received is roughly the size of a dinner plate.

They're not being "forced" to do anything. They are being ask to agree to certain rules as a condition of receiving money. That's contract law, not constitutional law.

Ed asked, "What about groups that exclude men?" Under these rules, they shouldn't be allowed either. That's one of the points of the original article, that the university may be foisted upon its own petard with this rule. But it should surprised no one that they may attempt to enforce the rules against one group while turning a blind eye toward their own programs.

While I think these groups should abide by the non-discrimination rules if they wish to take the university's money, I don't necessarily agree with the rule. There should be some exception for groups with a particular idealogical, political or religious purpose to associate with like-minded individuals. The Supreme Court makes this distinction, calling them "expressive associations." The heart of BSA v. Dale was whether or not BSA was a public accommodation and subject to state and federal civil rights laws, or an expressive association and exempt. Universities, like most bureaucracies, will take a meat ax approach to such things, rather than making the effort to make a fine distinction.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

In college, I was a member of the University Student Activity Fees Commission which was responsible for approving the budgets of all campus organizations and allocating money to each one. While this particular issue never came up, I can tell you that the money WAS considered state funds. We were bound by all the same controls as any other university deparment for accounting, purchase orders, bids on major expendiures, etc. Although the money was paid in by students as a mandatory fee, once the university touched it, it became state funds.

And therein, I think, lies the problem. The issue is not that these kids are being discriminated against, it's that that have their hand out wanting money. The university isn't telling them they what they can or cannot believe or whom they may or may not associate. They are just telling them to do it on their own nickel.

Pay you own way as a private organization and elect whoever you like. Take the money and live with the rules that come with it.

Maybe that's where the badge should go, too!

Not knowing all their concerns and objections I can't tell you specifically how to approach the CO. But perhaps there is some mid-ground -- they keep the books, but loosen up on he purse strings? Or if your Council offers it, open an account with the Scout Shop and allow the SM and CC to make purchases there. Or set up a petty cash account with a not-to-exceed spending limit.

I still think now is the time to get this settled. Presumably the CO asked you to take the job. They need to give you the tools to allow you to do it.

Interestingly, none of the phrases "Class A," "Class B," or "Activity Uniform" are mentioned in either the Insignia Guide or the Handbook. The only thing that comes close is page 13 of the Handbook which say for outdoor activites, Scouts may wear troop or camp T-shirts with the Scout pants or shorts.

Personally, I'd like to see BSA formalize the activity uniform or class B with a standard Polo-style shirt.