blw2

Interesting topic.

I am a strong I. I have considered that to be one reason I didn't excel in scouting as a boy, although I did/do enjoy it. (I went through Cubs, but scout only for a short while before I left it)

Sometimes it's hard for the shy kids to shine when there in a groupl of E's. Something for us leaders to remember, and help to encourage the I's without shining too bright of a spotlight on them that makes them uncomfortable.... when that happens, they would rather be anyplace else but there....

"... I now look back at the pictures of my son in the early years of cub scouts and webelos and just giggle a bit at how large his shirt was."

I'm not sure, but I think I sort of remember doing that as a kid. Uncomforatable and not sharp looking. You're right though.... worth a giggle and in some ways it's 'cute'.

Last year at the start of Tiger, The lady at our scout store and my wife were both suggesting I buy big. I specifically didn't want him to be wearing a shirt two sizes too big.... I understand the importance of pride in the uniform, and I wanted my son to feel that... and look sharp, so I bought the size that fit him.... well, it was the smallest size but had a little room to work with still. I'll likely regret that down the road when I'm showing him how to strip the patches and re-sew them, but I take pride in it. I think we'll be good through Wolf, but I'm not sure.... definitely before Bear year, so I suppose he may be in Blue through most of WEBLOS, or maybe all of it.

The shame of it is all the money and trouble of sewing, and he rarely wears it. My pack is a T-Shirt "Class B" pack......

Spun this off an interesting thread re SM.

I know that a lot of what has been mentioned in the previous thread applies, but since I'm envolved in Cub Scouting just wondering what comments might come out specific to Cubbing.

I am registered as Assistant Den Leader.

Our new CM has asked me to step into the Assistant CM role.

Do I need to submit a new application, or can I just call the council office?

Re. Tigers being "boring".... to a point i agree, but it has a lot to do with the leader me thinks. That's an area where our DL did a nice job. For the regular old in the classroom meetings, she brought some fun games and stuff.... some from her days as GS leader, but she tried to keep that under wraps from the boys!

It's tough finding fun things to do that don't take a lot of money, time, or preperation to get going.... for 5-10 minutes wirth of fun.

Agreed about the fun progressing to more and more adventure as the boys get older. i haven't been exposed to the rest of the program yet (well since I was a kid anyway), but I do recognize that boys now days need more to get them going with all that they are exposed to daily. I really don't see a problem for .22 rifles (that's gun powder) for Weblos 2 aged boys. that falls right in line with the OP's statement about rules that don't apply to real world. there are plenty of Weblos aged boys (and likely even younger) that hunt with real shotguns and rimfire rifles. I can totally see boys that age wanting to do adventure zip lines, repelling, canoeing, etc...

Re. the coed thing. This is something i struggle with, as a dad of one boy and two younger girls coming up behind him..... but could they still call it 'BOY' Scouts of America? I think the segregation is good, but at the same time my girls would like this stuff too! maybe have boy dens and girl dens for each rank.

Interesting variations here.....

I just felt like we were struggling as a Tiger Den. Nobody had experience with it so we were figuring it out as we went. Those of you that have the leaders tagged in advance have a huge advantage in that the new upcoming leaders have time to prepare. I really hope to have the opportunity to help out new Tiger DL get started when we find one. I just hope it's not at the Cub roundup like before..... no time to prepare.

As I think I mentioned, we have several more senior folks that have boys in older dens with the younger brothers coming up. It almost seems like they are sort of burned out though.... actually I think it's as much 'complacent with experience' as burned out, but anyway....

We do have a few dads that are still envolved after their sons have crossed over and out of the pack. their experience is valuable.

I only have the one boy, with little sisters coming up behind, so I don't see myself sticking around too long after my son moves on, but I do like the idea of being envolved on the pack level though instead of the den level, so my boy has a bit of independance.

I have been thinking as I have been reading posts lately, that there seems to be a high number of Scouters taht have tenure in their positions.... meaning that they have served for more than one yer in a given position.

In my pack, it seems that the leaders follow the ranks with their kid. Tiger DL this year, Wolf DL next year, etc... The exception being that they tend to follow their oldest boy through, and the little brothers trail behind... if that makes sense.

To me this makes sense.... I want to be with my son, not stay in Tigers when he moves up....

But at the same time, it seems taht expertice never has a chance to develop.

Anyway, to my question - is my pack typical or an exception?

I'm not aware of any 'policy' for our pack, but I know taht we try to avoid some holidays for pack trips.

The question as I see it, is which holidays? Poses a problem for blanket rules....

- Some holidays are perfect, becuase that's when you have a three day weekend.

- Some holidays just aren't all that important to most folks.

- Other holidays are important to most, but not all....

- Some holidays are popular for family outings -kids out of school, AND the parents have off

- Other holidays not so much.... the kids have off but parents don't...

I think it woould be too hard to have a blanket rule of NO HOLIDAYS..... you have to be smart about it.... group specific you know?

Ohanadad

I'm in a similar boat.... although I'm not CM. I still like the idea of changing to be a uniformed pack.

I plan to start wearing my full uniform to every meeting.

I hope my son will want do the same. I'm hoping I will encourage it by wearing mine, but i also realize that he'll see the other boys in T-shirts and he won't want to wear it. I'm a believer in picking battles, and don't think that this is one to push too hard on.

I've heard and read most all of the arguments. Honestly.... with the exception of a unit in a very poor area, they are all 'bunk' IMHO.

Like was said earlier, it seems to me that the boys want to wear it.... especially the younger ones. It's undermined by the parents and leaders enabling.... no encouraging.... nonconformity. It may not be written that full uniform is required..... but it cerrtainly is encouraged.....

I think it was ZScout5 that said, "...but don't beat yourself up over things you can't control (other people's priorities and response) and just plan a great program for your son and the other scouts who show up."

The problem I see is dealing with those that "show up", but didn't bother to let you know....

Several good suggestions followed that relate. I especially like the patch or gift package only for boys that confirmed.

I was doing den emails last year for our den, trying to get responses as to who had done what acheivments so we could get caught up on the beads, plan for buying belt loops, etc.... Out of 14 boys on the roster and many emails and announcements at den meetings, I received exactly one response. There's some side issues to my case that grossly aggrevated it though, not just lack of responding to emails.

Anyway, if I have the same chore next year, the first thing I plan to do is ask the parents what their prefered communication method is. I'll bet most or all will say email. If email doesn't work for some them, but they want calls then that's what I'll do. Depending on the case, it will be one email or call, or perhaps add in a reminder for the big/important stuff. That's all.

I understand and agree with the OP's premise.....

But I also sort of get the parent's position. I haven't run into this yet, but I can imagine a kid... he's content doing whatever at home. The parent just wants him or her to try something different to see if he likes it....something to change the pattern, expend his/her horizons, etc... The kid has no interest, but it really how does he/she know if they've nevered tried it?.... So a parent would have to force, bribe, or otherwise scheme.... Not the most noble thing, but it might be well intentioned.

I guess I'm dense, because I continue to be amazed at this issue. I just don't get it. Email seems like such a perfect tool for something like scouts.

It is very easy to read and give short respoinses, especially with smart phones now....

and it's a great way to sumarize things.... lists of questions, etc... if written well, outline form, etc...

I think I can excuse those folks that get hundreds of emails a day for their job. Sometimes less critical scout stuff might get missed or pushed aside....

I can also understand folks that don't have smart phones. If I didn't, I would likely check emails only 2-3 times a week, so I would be a slow responder....

"Read your son's Tiger Handbook from cover to cover, and have FUN! "

Great tip!

I read it all. It doesn't take long, and I read through most of it with my son..... not all in one sitting of course....

This opens an interesting issue.

There's a couple that are long standing good family friends.... a family that has baby sat for my kids for years, long before any of us were in scouting.... He's the Godfather of one of my daughters, His wife has known my wife longer than I have. We have baby sat their kids, visited each other in the hospital when all of our kids were born..... shared his kids' and my kids' birthdays. We've eaten Thankgiving dinner together....you've got the idea.....

Well, now he's our CM. I'm an Assistant DL.

I understand the 'official capacity and liability', & I get that friends of the family are most often the offenders in abuse cases....but come on.... We're supposed to treat each other like strangers?

"I was more worried about the parents in a "too many cooks spoil the broth" type way."

Based on my highly limited experience, if you set the tone early, that won't be an issue.

Make the schedule so that each parent knows which meeting(s) or Go-See-Its they are responsible for, and they get it going. Even if you or others help, I doubt if there would be too many parents trying to control enough to muck up the works.....

We are just coming out of our Tiger year.

It only takes as much time as you want to put into it as a parent, and as DL more, but still only what you want to put in.... and not that much time more if done right....

My advice, let him join. If you don't want to be a leader then don't right away. If you think you might, do it and just make time for it. I doubt if you would be sorry.

Get in touch with the Cub Master, and maybe even the former Tiger Leader, to feel it out if you are on the fence.

I too was apprehensive, so I didn't step forward when the CM asked us new tiger parents for a volunteer to be DL. I sort of regret it.

Later in the year, I realized that i could and wanted to help more formally, so I signed on as an assistant DL.

Parent envolvement is there, but it's time spent with your boy..... and it's really not that much. Our DL didn't really follow the design of the program to use the parents to organize meetings, and she pretty much planned them all. She is a former GS leader, and carries a lot of that experience into this group. I think this is one reason she doesn't drive for parent volunteers to pick up the load.... nad it seems like she really didn't read the book thoroughly on that point.... As it was for us, many of the parents really didn't do anything but bring their boys to the meetings, and sit in the back of the room and talk with other parents..... and many didn't even come to some of the meetings.

A few of us parents were very active and helped her durring the meetings but that was it. I'm sure her workload was high, but if she had follwed the 'book', it wouldn't have been..... and it wouldn't have been bad at all for the parents either..... just take care of a meeting or two. Really not that big of a deal if given a little time advanced warning to pull something together.

As Tiger parent partner, I spent a little time reading the book with my son, and working on the activities, but really not all that much time at all.... and I was likely the most active in our den at doing this. Also, Tiger turn out at camping and pack trips was very low (usually 3-5 boys out of a den of 14 registered). That took some of my time, but I am proud to say that my son was the only boy in the den, and maybe the pack, that made it to every event and meeting..... and he had fun with it! Good 'dad' time you know....

Also, keep in mind that there's no reason that your spouse couldn't share the load and take to some of the functions as parent. As a leader, I suppose not....

Another thought- maybe you'll find another role, perhaps behind the scenes, that you can fill on the comittee after you get into it, and that would free you up to be parent at the den functions.

Agreed that it may be a little better on the trip..... but come on, I agree with the OP.... really?

Next thing you know, everyone gets perfect attendance awards, even if they didn't show up. Wouldn't want them to be left out!.....and Eagles for everyone!!!

Can we have a group hug now?!?

I agree with JoeBob.... Most folks don't have a clue about all of these awards.

As a new leader, i have been trying to dig into it.... but there's your problem! Why should one have to dig? Most folks aren't as gung ho, and really don't bother to dig.

I saw a similar thing happening with beltloops. Younger boys and their parent patners don't know what a beltloop is, but they see the older boys getting them at the first pack meeting so they say, well bobby played xyz sport over the summer, so sign him up for that!

I was asking before our last pack meeting of the year, for our Tiger parents to get any awards (along with confirmation that thay had comleted the Tiger Rank activities), so that I could get the awards lined up... Some of the moms sat down with the book at banged out a shopping list.... it looked like these boys were skipping from Tiger to Eagle!

Similar to Seattle Pioneer's suggestion above, what my DL & I did, was take them at their word for all, except those that they clearly didn't do. The only measure we could use for that was knowing that none of tem had made any sort of presentation to the Den or Pack, and that being one of the requirements, we simiply didn't award those.... Never heard boo about it.... it's not like the boys were expecting the awards because thay had done the work, or anything....

I think next year we'll try to make a bigger point about the REQUIREMENTS for awards. Seems that the same could/should be done for adult knots, etc...

Nobody wants to acuse or argue about this stuff, that's why I like Seattle Pioneer's suggestion.

I just googled it. According to Wikipedia

The BSA had an enrolment in 2011 of 3,770,907 registerd adults and youth.

I really can't belive that the money couldn't be found in whatever budget they are already carrying to maintain the web sites on national and council levels, as well as the roster/advancement database ....

but based on the registration numbers, if dues were increased by $0.25/head they would increase revenue $942,726.75 per year.

Come on.....

Add to that, all the money that individual units are spending now, on web sites, tracking and advancement programs, etc..... that they theoretically at least wouldn't have to spend....

.... really?

From my perspective, this isn't something that should be addressed locally so much, only for sake of uniformity.

Most of the "rank & rule" already exists on a national level, BSA web site, BSA publications (scout manuals, leader's guides, etc...).

I assume that membership rosters and advancement are more on a council level, but that shouldn't be too hard as they should in theory at least already be uniform...

As has been mentioned, a lot of these issues have already been addressed on the open market, with programs such as Scout Manage, Packmaster, Troop Master, etc....

No sense in re-inventing the wheel or making this thing difficult.... link and outsouce!

Worried about manpower?.... do what business does, outsource to these folks.

Worried about how much space a photo takes?.... make a link to something like Picasa or Shutterfly...

Worried about a few MB of space for individual pack or troop pages?.... Just have a standard template and let the hosting be taken care of locally by the pack/troop. All the tracking, and other stuff would just link up to the national uniform 'system'.

Worried about email? You'll never be able to compete with solutions such as Gmail, so why try? Just use Gmail!

Worried about not enough money? come on, this is a national organization. How many scouts & scouters are there in the BSA.... raise dues by 50 cents a head or something....

Admittedly, I'm watching from the nose bleed section, but it seems that most if not all of this is available and already done, it just needs a little attention and polish.

Yeah, we put a man on the moon with a slide rule...... this aint that hard.....

I agree with the OP.....

I'm new as a scouter, but so far I've gotta say I'm surprised..... no, shocked...... at the lack of continuity and support with almost everything digital, or that could be digital.

- lack of tools for tracking and logging

- lack of web site continuity for packs or troops to use

- lack of mobile / cloud based tools

- I'm finding it very difficult to find local in person training to supplement the on-line stuff, and for training such as BALOO

- I have really had to dig to find out basic info., and then often find contridictory rules and guidance.

- lack of an 'official' communication forum, such as this one.

etc.....

I disagree about cheap LED lights.

I have one of those harbor freight or similar that I really should throw out. As soon as I can find my good ones I 'lost' in the camper, I will.

It reminds me of the flashlights we used to have when i was a kid.... those old cheap 2D Ray-O-Vac or whatever..... you know the one..... turn it on, nothing. Now I know these batteries are good.... Give it a slap, flickers on, then off. Give it another slap. It comes on but super dim. Slap it harder than before, bright until you get it aimed where you want it, then dim...... hold your tongue just right when you slap it three times.... it works!

I think like the OP, but also recognize that even as gung ho as I am as a new cub dad, I'm a little burned out.

Also, I agree with the old guard that families and scouts have team sports and other things in the summer that keep them hopping, so I can kind of see the logic of shutting down for the summer,

but I do wish that my pack would do one or maybe two things just to keep it 'alive'...

One of our committee members suggested a survey before our last pack meeting. We brainstrormed, and she put it together. I think the pack meeting was too busy and so proper attention couldn't be given to it. Still, we got some good feedback.

One part was a list of possible trips and pack overnighters, asking for level of interest and ranking. It helped us narrow down our trips for next year..... but it really just took us to where we were planning to go anyway....

I think open end questions might be better, and I like the idea of letting folks fill them out on their own time

interesting thread.

I think we are hovering someplace around 50 boys currently since the Web2's crossed over. To my inexperienced eye, it's a size that works well. Any larger would be too much I think.

I have no feel at all for how many Tigers we'll have next year, but I guess it will be on the order of what we had this year so the pack will grow slightly.

My son's Tiger den this year was a bit too big in my opinion with 14 on the roster, but it has worked out like a much more realistic sized active den might. Two are registered but have not been active, and most of the others are maybe 60% active... The average pack meeting was roughly 10 boys, the average Den meeting was maybe six to eight boys, and the average den turn out to camp outs was maybe 4 boys (The really active sons of pack leaders, and my son).

I don't like the idea of splitting the den up, because of the whole friend/click thing.... I like that my son interacts with all of the other boys in is age group.