topshot

To clarify, I wasn't suggesting greenhorns would or should be the 2 adults. I'm committee chair but have never taken IOLS. I do backpack solo in the wilderness for a week at a time. I've also done WFA. If I have to take IOLS to take a group of kids out I will, but my time is too valuable if it's not required. There are other adults in the troop I'd have no trouble with supervising a patrol.

Am I correct in thinking the SM has final say in the matter? Can he require IOLS? I can understand the point that it's his reputation on the line.

ScoutNut wrote on August 10, 2010:

"As click mentioned, your answer, across the board, is that outdoor training is NOT MANDATORY for either Webelos den, or Boy Scout Troop camping per BSA National requirements.

HOWEVER -

Some councils have added their own requirements to National's basics. Some councils require BALOO and/or OLSWL to take Webelos camping. Perhaps your council is one of those that require additional training, and that is why you feel the information is conflicting.

IOLS is part of the basic Scoutmaster/Asst Scoutmaster training, and is required in order to be considered trained in those positions.

The BSA Guide to Safe Scouting requires that there be a minimum of 1 registered adult leader over 21 on all trips and outings. It does not require that the registered adult leader be trained for their position."

I'd like to encourage our Troop to do some patrol camping activities, but we've always struggled with getting parents along on Troop campouts. Now that adults are required on patrol campouts also, I need to know all the requirements for when I try to recruit.

Is the above still the case for Troops? I was told by one of our ASMs that IOLS was required of at least 1 adult on an overnight. Maybe a Council req? I'm not concerned about SM/ASM positions, just some normal parents, though one must be registered, of course. Is there a doc from national that has this kind of info in writing? GSS is vague - "appropriate adult leadership". Thank you.

Even my troop which I don't consider very adventurous tent-camped 7 times I believe in 2011, not inc summer camp. They usually don't in Dec-Feb except for Klondike Derby.

When I did the advanced canoe training my council offers, it was 120 F (49 C). In fact, the day we had to capsize our canoes was right at that (60 for both) and quite windy. Definitely want a windshirt/jacket in those conditions! Had a blast though.(This message has been edited by topshot)

> One boy had some kind of giant mesh box he hung over his tarp (like they use in the tropics) but it seemed heavy (2 lbs) and had some condensation problems in the morning.

Tell him to put it UNDER the tarp next time. Though I agree it was likely pretty heavy. There are several smaller bug nets for not too much $. Or he could cut down what he has to a reasonable size. It's not hard to sew noseeum mesh.

Feel free to use anything from my paper on this subject.

http://topshotsystems.com/Lightweight_Scouting_Dissertation.pdf(This message has been edited by topshot)

Maybe he should go with his friend's family if they'd have him (unless they aren't going to do 10+ mile days). That would be an easy way to get a few of them out of the way. He'd have to learn the routes and such so he can create his hike plan in advance.

Conditioning seems to be quite personal. I'm 44, have bad knees, don't exercise and sit behind a PC all day. Yet I've done 3 major trips with no real trouble outside a couple blisters I failed to take care of in time and sore knees (need to slow down). Last trip I flew into Aspen and slept at 10,200' the first night and went over a 12,400' pass the next morning (coming from 600' here at home). I definitely felt it above 11,000' (likely took 30 second breaks for every 60 seconds hiked). If I can do that I bet most teenage boys could as well (barring those sensitive to altitude sickness or significantly overweight). Doing it day after day like at Philmont is where conditioning could help if a boy is really out of shape. It doesn't seem to affect me for some reason though I normally only do 10-12 miles a day.

I'd also never wear boots for this. They won't be comfortable for 20 miles. He should use his normal running shoes unless they're the Converse/skate shoe style. While my body could easily keep going for more, my feet are tired after about 15 miles. I'm sure if I was able to get out more often that wouldn't be an issue either.

Using a canister per pair of Scouts is rather overkill. I guess you save some size and weight on smaller pots but not a whole bunch. Not really lower cost either since you have twice as many stoves.

Hadn't heard of the Soto. "Newly developed micro regulator maintains consistent output in cold weather." Pure marketing BS. They somehow overcome the basic properties of the liquified gases - I don't think so. What it will do is keep output more constant as the temp of the CANISTER decreases, but that would not be significant for a normal boil anyway, only if you were cooking for longer than 15 min maybe. It will still fail to work in colder temps just like any other upright stove, leaving unused fuel in the canister. On the plus side, I see it is made in Japan so build quality should be good.

For cold temps, remote canister where you can invert the canister is the better choice. Otherwise you need to keep an upright canister warm enough, usually by placing it within some water or some other tricks but not something I'd want Scouts to be dealing with. KISS.

What fuel choice are you using?

I would give you these pros:

Smaller lighter gear

lower cost

more equitable distribution of food and gear

No bickering about who carries what or who is cooking and cleaning up.

I don't think these would matter when you're just boiling water for freezer bags (or bowls):

more nimble menu (everybody can still have their own meal)

Much shorter meal prep times (bet you can do 2 L on a canister about as fast as 2 C with Esbit)

Less waste of food (each person has their own portions with both methods)

Were you a participant?

I don't have a lot of pics. They were sort of a last minute addition as I needed to get the text into a finished form first. I'm actually adding a couple more right now. If you have some to contribute let me know. Especially would like some of Scouts showing clothing layers. I'm a visual guy, too.

I don't mind at all. I want it to be useful to as many people as possible. There will be many revisions as I expand it eventually. I'm still doing minor ones right now until Sun evening.

I took Ray out in favor of some Scout examples. His book is still in App B though.

Darker lenses are better at elevation where you may also encounter snowfields, which while currently outside my parameters, will be included in later revs. I used to wear amber lenses but even at 600' ASL they were too bright for me. This did remind me to add UVA/B absorbtion.

What rain suits do your Scouts typically use?

I had thought of just footnoting the LitePac reprint but thought it'd be more fun for them to see full issues of Boys Life.

Good to hear of a troop going light and off-trail apparently (even if you do look like old men with your canes).

Dissertation for a "Doctorate degree", not for a class. Could be used as a handout though.

Audience is Scouters as it says. Purpose is to get the info into their hands to educate them and pass it down to SPL and so forth.

Why do you prefer buddy cooking? Before alcohol stove issue, I would have agreed to some extent, though it can still be done with Esbit if desired.

I'm finishing up my dissertation on lightweight backpacking for University of Scouting. Any last suggestions for improvement? Thanks.

http://topshotsystems.com/Lightweight_Scouting_Dissertation.pdf

I'm not aware of any backpacking filter or common chemicals that will neutralize ag chemicals or heavy metals. Research your sources in advance. If you can't, I'd carry it all or cache it. Charcoal will help with smell/taste. I'd use Aqua Mira and then gravity filter with an Aqua Mira Frontier Pro most likely, but if you're not wanting to wait at all (no chemicals) you'll need a filter with pore size small enough to get bacteria (~ 0.1-.2 micron) and hand pump it. The Frontier Pro is 3 micron. Viruses aren't much concern in the US.

http://www.riteintherain.com

Rite in the Rain is another good source of weatherproof writing journals.(This message has been edited by topshot)

Like Stosh, I carry limited stuff (< 2 oz), knowing I can improvise for anything else I'd need short of major trauma perhaps. As a leader on a trek, I'd take a bit more than my solo personal kit though.

My base is 20% if it were up to me.

Tarps unless bugs are an issue or the Scout doesn't know how to pitch correctly in bad weather. The latter can be solved with training and practice. The former is more of a personal preference thing.

Unless you're going to be with him every trip to watch after the tent, I'd just get a basic 2-pole dome tent like the Walmart one mentioned. There are only 2 real issues I know of with those. The mesh isn't real fine so may not keep out noseeums and the rainflys are quite small on both the 6x5 and 7x7 models so if you have much wind with any rain he might get some spray.

I seem to be having trouble finding a current PLH (#32502A). Has it been replaced? My son was just elected PL.

> cat can users complain about time

More that they cannot be used on Scout outings anymore.

I do plenty of other chores while waiting the 5-8 minutes. No biggie but not as practical for most winter use.

Hope you get feeling better and can hold down whatever you birds can find.

> once the full canister gets below half full it simple doesn't work very well. I have been left frustrated when my companions are eating and I am still waiting. I have constructed wind screens to help trap heat and help warm the fuel, helps a little but not enough. The iso fuel mixes are not all created equal, the coleman stuff at wally world is terrible, the best I have found is the snowpeak, giga stove version.

I believe Snowpeak uses 30%. The Coleman Powermax was the best at 40% but no longer made. Anyway, if you have a remote canister stove and always run it with the canister inverted the fuel mixture will be maintained and it won't peter out when it's half full (after all the propane has been used up in an upright canister). You can find lots of good info on this subject at

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm

> but we have been caught out where the weather dipped below forecast and isobutane stoves lost their ability to work efficiently

A normal canister stove will work OK below freezing UNTIL all the propane in the mixture burns off. Since most canisters are 20-30% propane new they won't last anywhere near as long as normal. What you need is a remote canister stove such as an MSR Windpro so you can invert the canister, allowing it to operate as liquid feed and maintaining the gas mixture (you need the propane for below freezing temps). Then it will operate down to 0 F. The catch with the Windpro at least is you need to loosen the canister adapter and rotate it 180 because of the fuel line.

I am an Owl also. Have my ticket completion meeting tomorrow.