SunnyD

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Thanks, yes definitely want to talk to her more about it now that I've had some time to contemplate it, and in the meantime wanted to try to inform myself to be able to provide some alternatives since she won't really be familiar with what options are out there either.  Like you say there are variations in standards and I also am not too knowledgeable about the nuances.  The long-sleeve uniform shirt and a long skirt may actually work, that's a good suggestion that I can offer her to see if it would be acceptable.  I appreciate your help!

I'm helping out a new pack and a couple of families have joined where the mothers wear traditional Muslim attire with headcoverings and floor length dresses.  One of them has expressed interest in becoming a leader but was asking some questions about uniforms and clearly would refuse if required to wear standard-issue.  First off, while I'm pretty traditional and wear the uniform almost every day myself, I'm not going to turn her down over the uniform, we'll gladly accept her help and figure something out without making it an issue.  A Scout is reverent and respects the beliefs of others.  However, I think she actually might be interested in uniforming if there's a way to do it.  I don't see any official offerings, do people make quasi-uniform-ish DIY type garb to try to be consistent with their beliefs while attempting to adhere to the spirit of the uniform?  Or is there some source out there that I haven't found?  I'm sure a headcovering can be improvised without too much trouble, but pants and a shirt are not going to fly and something more like a long dress or robes would be necessary, maybe with a sash for insignia?  Thanks in advance, I appreciate any experience anyone has with this, surely there must be precedent.

Thanks, Kahuna.

The issue that we're running into is that our CO says they are not a 501c3 and as a result we've had problems being able to accept donations that have been offered to us. Any other ideas on how to work around this?

Does anyone have experience with setting up a "Friends of Unit XXX" as a 501c3 to be your chartering organization? How difficult and costly was it, and how do you operate?

Gour0, don't know where you are in GA but it appears the Atlanta Area Council has one for Wolves/Bears at their camp in Covington. I am in Florida and think my council will have one but they have yet to confirm. For a backup, I started looking for the next closest council where I could find one and that was where I finally ended up. Like you, I found others for Webelos but not for the younger boys.

Agreed, they all need a chance to do this. We even have our Tigers doing it by the end of the year. Will 6-8 year old boys be perfectly polished at this? No. But, what is of more importance to what our flag represents, a colorguard that is slightly crisper, or flag ceremonies that teach all boys respect for our country and its symbols along with their place as citizens?

Evmori and others, I'm with you, I'd like to know more about this research.

Even if they found a correlation between advancement to First Class in a year and retention, did they validate which was the cause and which was the effect?

Pushing the FCFY program would indicate that they assume that boys tend to stay in the program because they earn First Class in a year. However, couldn't it also have been that the boys more likely to stay in the program (better Scouting skills, more support at home, more enthusiasm for the program, more active troops, etc.) were more likely to earn First Class in a year as a result?

If it's the latter and not the former, rushing to slap a First Class badge on everyone as soon as possible doesn't seem like it would be of much benefit and would lead to the issues Beavah describes. I'd be interested in further information as to whether the FCFY emphasis has actually resulted in improved retention as predicted.

Hmm, our Cubs camp all winter in South Florida, never knew it was a problem. We've been out on days when the temp doesn't even reach 80... What badge does that earn you?

OGE, great question. It's so many things, isn't it? Does it oversimplify to summarize it as putting others before oneself? That encompasses a lot - doing good turns, taking responsibility, assuming extra duties with a cheerful spirit, putting the greater good first including the troop or patrol, helping the out new guy even if he's not popular, supporting leadership, never grumbling - just doing the right thing!

Eagle92, I agree with you that "rushing through" the program is less than ideal and that earning Eagle is not the be-all and end-all of the program. Plenty of youth who never earn Eagle have life-changing experiences. But allow me to play devil's advocate...

I wonder what the retention rates are for Scouts who have earned Eagle by 14 versus those who have not. I would like to think the former would be more active in and would contribute more on the whole to the program.

The equivalent of this AoL requirement would be to require that all Eagles be 17 1/2. That would ensure we kept them active and didn't "rush", correct? It would also be quite a demotivator. I wonder how many of us would advocate that requirement.

Let me tell the story of another Scout. He was a bright kid and a natural leader among his friends. He enjoyed the outdoors, especially the water. Upon joining, he learned quickly and soon picked up good scoutcraft skills. Being very active, he rapidly earned First Class. In the meantime, he was involved in church, school, sports, music, and the community. He was selected to positions of responsibility not to allow him to check a box but because he was deemed the best person for the job. With merit badges earned from a couple of summer camps, a few more earned with the troop, and several earned on his own initiative, by 13 he found himself already a Life Scout. Having never really considered Eagle as a possibility, he now found it within reach and dedicated himself to the goal. He planned and executed a project while completing the remaining merit badges and earned Eagle by 14, not having felt rushed at all. He continued to serve in the leadership of his troop, and as he passed on what he had learned his patrols won many awards at camporees and Klondike Derbies. He led a high adventure trek. He joined the camp staff. He earned marksmanship awards. He went on to earn his Lifeguard BSA and joined the acquatics staff. He served on the COPE course staff. Along the way he had been selected to OA and was active there. He served in the leadership of a world jamboree troop. He remained active until he graduated from high school. Having also been highly decorated in academics, music, and athletics, he earned a full college scholarship. Along the way he enjoyed every sunrise over the mist on the lake.

Did this youth really miss out by advancing too quickly? Advancement and good Scouting experiences should go hand-in-hand, not be mutually exclusive. Shame on us if we don't help our high-achievers understand what more the program entails. Shame on us if we are advancing boys who haven't earned it. And what does it say about the program we offer if it isn't even attractive to our own Eagle Scouts?

I think everyone agrees that under the current requirements this youth cannot earn AoL. The reasons given seem to focus on why he should not cross over to Boy Scouts. Why are we equating the two? Rules are made to be changed, not broken. So let's shift the conversation a bit.

Let's look at the requirement. Be active for six months since finishing the fourth grade or turning 10. This lad has been told he hasn't "earned" the award yet. He has done everything within his power to do so. What he hasn't done yet is simply be older. Is that really much of an accomplishment? Why do we have this requirement? If it's for the scout to have been active in the pack, he could have been the most active scout in the council for four years and still not have met the requirement. Perhaps he has won the Pinewood Derby and earned all the pins, participated in every event, etc. as some have suggested. If he's such an overachiever, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Even if he hasn't, what does that have to do with earning AoL? If those are requirements, then add them. Is it so that he's shown leadership? Then make it a requirement to do so, not just to reach a certain age, which one can do without being a leader. Is it so that he won't rush through the other requirements? By the end of the fourth grade year he has had 12 months as a Webelos. Plenty of boys join at the beginning their fifth grade years and rush through in 6 months.

Let's face it, there is absolutely no point to this requirement other than to slow boys down and prevent them from crossing over sooner. So why is this a requirement for earning AoL rather than a joining requirement for Boy Scouts? The two are not the same thing. One is an award earned through accomplishment. Being a certain age is not an accomplishment. The other is simply a set of qualifying criteria - different altogether.

Those boys can no more be Boy Scouts right now than my grandmother can be. Neither the DE nor anyone else can change that. They can be Webelos visiting a troop. Buffalo's suggestion is excellent for many reasons and seems like a perfect solution if executed properly.

First off, good luck - reading this and your other thread you will have your hands full. Glad you stepped up to the plate though, it can be a great opportunity for you, your son, and all of those boys who otherwise may not have it.

I agree with the others that it is unusual for the crossing Webelos to be taking their money with them, even if there were individual scout accounts. Your pack should have some bylaws. I would look to see if this is mentioned there. Unless it is, I would be resistant. Alternatively if there were any committee meeting minutes (as a previous policy decision, not just last month when they were dealing with their own personal situation) where this was a documented decision that might carry some weight. If they were running a fly-by-night program and neither of these exist then they don't have much of an argument. Many thanks to them and the boys for leaving a solvent pack through their efforts. A good turn well done! We use individual accounts, I know my son will have a four-figure balance when he crosses over, and I have full knowledge that will go to the pack's general fund when we leave. I make sure he knows it too and feels good about the fact that he is pulling his own weight and then some.

Others have pointed out that finances shouldn't be your responsibility, which is true, but absent a functioning CC and committee sometimes you need to take matters into your own hands. The advice to seek out a unit commissioner or district commissioner is sound - given the experience you've related with your DE I'd be wary of interactions with him. The chartered org could also help and should in theory, but if they have been hands-off they may not be of much use. Best for you is if you can work to get a committee up and running ASAP so that if you do need to take on some of the administrative role in the short term at least you can hand it over quickly. That's good not just for you but the pack as well, so you can focus on your job of executing the program as CM and the proper checks and balances are in place.

Regarding your original question as to a reasonable balance, a couple thousand dollars may sound like a lot, but when you have to put deposits down on facilities or campsites that you have not collected for yet, when you haven't done a fundraiser yet, when you want to print up some pack t-shirts that you haven't sold yet, when you need to buy advancements before you've collected all your dues, and so on, it helps to have some working capital. You're fortunate to have what you do - I would try to be a good steward and preserve that while budgeting to be cash-flow neutral going forward. If you're fortunate enough to get through a couple of stable years you will have the experience to know what you need for your specific situation - size, growth rate, program, calendar, etc. as well as whether you need any equipment.

I'm with the others on this - I'm not a trader myself. While colorful or unique patches may be cool, you'll never find one on my vest or blanket that I didn't earn.

That being said, I'm a veteran of a world jamboree. There the interest was not so much patch trading but uniform trading. I came back with some nice souveneirs. However, there the US uniform was a currency that devalued through the week because we were a large contingent with probably more uniforms per scout on average, so the opposite of the scarcity situation that was described can happen.

I would say, even if he thinks it doesn't interest him he should take a moderate number because once he's there, he may decide he wants to participate and without any he will be out of luck. On the flip side, even if he's very interested a limit will ensure that he spends time getting the full experience of the jambo instead of spending all his time trading.

As for what he trades for - value is in the eye of the beholder. If he comes home with a few patches he thinks are 'cool' and better yet, a couple stories to go with them, then great!

This is similar to some issues discussed in other threads but different enough that I've started a new one.

Suppose you have a Scout who all throughout the program has been one of those exceptionally high achievers. His Webelos 1 year he is 9 when he starts 4th grade and because he has an early birthday turns 10 in September. During the summer and fall he completes all requirements for AoL except for being active for six months since his birthday. (This requires some work with the Web 2's.) No question he can earn AoL in March and is eligible to cross over then.

Pack tradition is for a big outdoor fireside AoL ceremony with OA, etc. at a campout (warm climes) in January and similarly a big outdoor crossover at Blue and Gold in February. These are of course normally for Web 2's.

Scout could have his own reduced AoL/crossover in March or April (after his "half-birthday") at a pack meeting, but that would be pretty anti-climactic after just seeing the other guys', especially when he's always been the high achiever. Doesn't make sense to blow up the whole pack calendar and postpone the big ceremonies just in case he does this - won't know until December or so if he has made it anyway, and also wouldn't be fair to the Web 2's. Could also make him wait another whole year, but let's assume he's already been in for 4 years and is ready for something new, has earned everything there is in the book, and also has the maturity to cross over. He could stay and be a leader to the younger boys, but he's the sort that was a leader even when he *was* one of the younger boys.

So, the question is - knowing he's met all other requirements and that all he has to do is mark time, would you let him participate in the big AoL and crossover ceremonies, but only sign off on (and issue) the award and fill out a registration form in March? Or do you hold him off and do his own mini-ceremony in March or April, and that's just the price of choosing to cross over as soon as he is eligible instead of waiting for his "class"?

I suppose one could argue he might not remain "active" the extra few weeks between the crossover and 10.5 to fully meet that requirement, but that seems a small risk if he has been very active up until that point, especially when he still needs signoff to earn the card and he needs the card to cross over before he is 11. So it really comes down to timing of the ceremony.

I can see the perspective of being a stickler, but then again, it's about the boys, right? Is it any different than doing a pack graduation where everyone symbolically moves up to the next rank and gets their new scarves, etc. - but to avoid conflict with summer vacations, holding it a week before school is out when they technically become eligible?

I'm of two minds, so I appreciate your opinions.

I'm scheduled to take WB in a few months, and I have a related question. Can ticket items be initiatives that we already have in progress at the time of the course?

I'm a CM but have some ideas that I plan to work on with the district and council that will also benefit my unit at the same time. I would be doing these things anyway, with or without WB, to contribute to the local Scouting community. By their nature, even if I start soon they will be in progress but not yet complete by the time of the course weekends.

I'm not going to hold off on starting these things just so that I can "count" them later. I think they will be of benefit, so I plan to do them regardless. So my question, perhaps moot but certainly of interest, is whether starting them now disqualifies them as ticket items, or if pursuing them to completion after the course makes it valid to include them. I'm not looking to get off easy or play games with the requirements, but if the point is to encourage me to do the sort of thing I plan to be doing, then it just seems a little forced to have to come up with some additional ones just because I already "used up" the ones I felt really made an impact and had a passion for. They actually seem a lot more significant than some others I have heard of.

Anyway, I appreciate the board's insight.

As we go through the 100th anniversary year, I'm considering trying to do brief capsules of some kind on the history of Scouting, covering a decade in each monthly meeting. In other words, the first month something on the foundation and on Scouting in the 1910's in the context of WWI; the next month the 20's, and so on. By the end of the school year we would be to modern times and at graduation I could put the focus on the future. Or if every decade is too granular perhaps I could cut it down to half a dozen spread over time.

This might be pictures, skits, stories, etc. to illustrate what society was like and how Scouting evolved through the years in a way that they would find fun and interesting but yet that I might sneak in some education without them noticing. Perhaps I could also work in a mention of changes in merit badges (I'm sure they would find some of the old ones amusing) and the program in general. I wish I had access to historical uniforms but will need to settle for picures for most, I would expect. I have a reprint of an old manual with scoutcraft how-tos of yesteryear (not an official handbook) so I could throw in some of those activities at campouts or other outings as appropriate. I don't have it with me at the moment to be able to cite the title.

Anyone have any good ideas or resources for such an effort?

By the way, I'm a Cubmaster, so I have tighter attention-span constraints than I might with older boys. I'm still mulling this over and the idea is not yet fully-formed but I would envision this as a Cubmaster's minute (or three) at pack meetings or by the fire at campouts; a portrait the boys would find interesting and not a lecture.

I wouldn't advocate Webelos nights counting toward the merit badge (Boy Scout advancements should be earned while a Boy Scout and most Cub camping is different in nature than Boy Scout camping anyway, as has been pointed out). I was amused though by the assertion that Webelos don't camp much.

Our pack camps 15 nights every year. Add in resident camp and Webelos-specific activites, and a scout could easily surpass 40 nights in the 18 months as a Webelos. In fact, our active scouts who started as Tigers have a good 70-80 nights under their belts before ever crossing over - some could get even more.

I always liked the knee-high red-topped ones, even as a scout in the 80's. (I came after the garter kind, never had those.) I was disappointed this week when the council shop was sold out, but I got a couple pairs of the new ones for camp this week. Loved them! Thickness is good, nice and comforable. I hope the elastic holds up well since they only go part way up the calf. I will definitely wear these more than the "classic" ones.

Funny, I was just going to ask this question.

Our council apparently uses the week after Boy Scout camps are over, Sun-Wed for Wolves/Bears, Wed-Sat for Webelos. I suppose they use most if not all of the same staff as the Boy Scout camps. This is new to me; when I was a Cub we only had day camp.

Our pack hasn't participated before, so my son and I (I'm new CM) are going to try it out this year.

Valid question though posed by Rick, if a scout camps two years as a Cub and two more as a Webelos, how interesting is it going to be as a Boy Scout simply staying at the same camp a few more days? Granted, there are different activities and more independence. On the flip side, it won't be that much of a stretch then to make the leap to a week.

Where we live, most camping and other outdoor activity is during the school year due to the weather.

For the summer, we have planned:

Ice skating

Minor league baseball game

Ice cream social

Movie matinee

Bowling

Waterpark

Roller skating

Zoo

Fire/rescue tour

Arcade/go-karts

Drive-thru safari

Other ideas? Some of these already were already mentioned, but...

Team sports beltloops

Fishing

Hiking (age appropriate difficulty, of course)

Service project - clean up a park, plant trees, etc.

Family picnic - barbeque, horseshoes, baseball, sack races, etc. - potential recruiting opportunity, good time to invite new people so you can get to know each other while the boys have fun

Drive-in movie (not many left, but a few still around)

County fair

Petting zoo, farm, ranch, etc.

Wildlife sanctuary, nature center, state park, etc. - some offer guided programs

Science or other children's museum - also may offer educational/fun activity programs

Train tour (some areas have vintage "tourist"-type rides)

Local historical sites or other points of interest

"Living history" museums

Crafts (art centers, community programs, or just at a park pavilion)

Home Depot kids programs

Libraries and community centers may offer activity programs, especially in the summer

Gymnastics (recently did an event at a gymanstics school with a den to earn loops/pins - they really enjoyed it)

Model rockets

...wish I could take off the summer and do something every day!