Gwaihir

2 minutes ago, cgail said:

Is bigotry an inalienable right?

I've heard this "slippery slope" argument countless times, and it's still as made of straw as always.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder.. it's far different than fact.  

Example:  "Thou shalt not kill" is I believe how it's written - but people must kill in many settings:  Military in war, police in the line of duty, etc.   Killing is different than murder, but sometimes it's a fine line.  We justify it based on the laws we have set for ourselves.

 

How it's written is actually thou shalt not murder.  but non the less, show me your compromise on pedophila.  You said, and I quote "There must be discourse and compromise in all things."  this is not a straw man.  this is not a slippery slope.  all things. 

2 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

Regarding a breaking point, it is all adding up quickly for me. Scouts BSA announcement, Councils turning a blind eye to a lack of female leaders in packs, professionals pretending early adopter packs are not running co-ed dens, professionals ignoring conversations right in front of them about troops planning to run co-ed, and now the OA membership eligibility changes.

I am not anti-girls. I have had young women in my crew for almost 12 years, including trips to Philmont, but this is all starting to be too much.

 

Someone at national turned the burner up too fast on the frog... I think you're going to see a lot of leaping where just the inclusion of girls would have weathered most of the storm. 

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Several posts on the Vigil Honor facebook page comment on that, as well as comments on a ceremonies FB group, and my lodge chief,  who is  heavily invovled in AIA on the section level.

That annoucement is suppose to be made at NOAC this summer from all indicators above. I know a lot of folks who will be ticked off.

 

I won't renew my dues with my lodge if that becomes reality.  

2 hours ago, cgail said:

It's not a zero sum game.  There must be discourse and compromise in all things.  

nonsense.  our very foundation as a nation held certain truths self evident.  There is no compromise for self-evident truths and inalienable rights.  Should we compromise on murder?  On pedophilia?  where else should we compromise?  This is a silly statement that is not grounded in reality. 

4 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Many of this saw this coming but we keep getting told that "no, no, no changes no co-ed". The meeting requirement will be a problem for some patrols...our best patrols just get together and meet in addition to Troop meetings...which is exactly what we want them to do.

Mike Rowe's issues with scouting are even more relevant. 

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Once upon a time, Sea Scout Ships and Explorer Posts cold hold OA elections. That ended sometime in the mid-late 1980s. So I am not to concerned about that.

What concerns me is the Lenni lanape Lore as I have been told that chapters are to no longer do Arrow of Light and Cross Over ceremonies,  nor are they to wear Native American regalia.  I think the OA will lose alot as a result.

 

Where did you hear that?  The OA isn't the OA anymore if you drop the Lenni Lanape Lore.  

19 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

That will cause problems for some units. I know back in the day, I was the only adult at camp the entire week, and 2 other adults would swap out. And yes, I was 19-20 when that happened. Also know of troops that have challenges with 21+ adults doing things and rely heavily on their 18-2o year old adutls.

 

 

 

That is so screwed up. But saw that coming, especially with the introduction of girls. IMHO BSA is beginning to prepare for coed patrols, despite what they are saying about separate programs and "linked troops."

So how do you stop the gang of friends that's in the patrol from just hanging out together on a camping trip?   No one wears their uniform anymore anyway, just wear a Nike t-shirt instead of a class-b t-shirt and you're good to go.  These rules are absurd.  

posted this over in the OA forum... 

Quote

Disappointing.  Opening it up to girl Scouts would make sense, but it's very much a "Boy Scout (as in program, not umbrella company)" organization, not an Explorer org, Air Scout org, Sea Scout org, etc and I feel like it should have been kept that way.  I really wouldn't be surprised if the Lenni Lanape Lore that is at the foundation of the Order is dropped entirely in 5 years. 

Disappointing.  Opening it up to girl Scouts would make sense, but it's very much a "Boy Scout (as in program, not umbrella company)" organization, not an Explorer org, Air Scout org, Sea Scout org, etc and I feel like it should have been kept that way.  I really wouldn't be surprised if the Lenni Lanape Lore that is at the foundation of the Order is dropped entirely in 5 years.  

2 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Teaching resilience, yes. Bullying, harassment, and abuse will always be there, but that doesn't mean we just accept it as ok, or even a good thing. Teaching resilience in the face of hardship is good, and I support it wholeheartedly. We also teach ethical behavior and continuing to purposely be hurtful to others is not ethical behavior in my opinion. 

I'm not saying we should teach people to have intent to harm, quite the opposite.  The goals are the same, limit bullying to irrelevance and non-existence.. but imo operating under banners of anti-bullying is ineffective and ultimately results in a lot of what we're seeing today, damaged youth, mostly boys who then lash out in very destructive ways.  The path I feel is a much more successful is focused on the victims, teaching them resilience, emotional fortitude, the ability to form solid friendships and the wherewithal to stand up to their bullies, even physically if need be.   

32 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

 (forgetting for a minute that they've been in since the 70s).

funny post, but this is straw man.  girls were not allowed in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts since the 70s.   

18 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I read the whole piece. It doesn't matter what he wrote previously. When you lead into a point of argument with hypothetical non-issues, that's a strawman.

completely disagree.  He explained the facts, then he expressed his opinion on the op's hypothetical concern.  two very different things. 

19 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Like most things, the idea of "safe spaces" has gone to far. All people should be safe in all places from bullying, harassment, and abuse. The term "safe space" is/was/should be recognition that bullying, harassment, and abuse are not tolerated at any level.

Disagree entirely.  Should people bully? no, but that's pie in the sky utopia.  IMO, We need to drop this anti-bullying everyone should be safe from bullying crusade once and for all, and instead go back to teaching resilience.  As someone who was mercilessly bullied in grammar school, I learned some valuable lessons out of those awful experiences.  I learned to stand up for myself and confront my bullies head on, I learned the importance of surrounding myself with good friends and family, I learned get emotionally tough.   The bullying stopped shortly after I gave one of the bullies a bloody nose. We graduated 8th grade as friends and my life radically changed course for the better.  Bullying happens at every single stage of human life and development, giving individuals tools to be brave in the face of bullying and to defend against bullying... to be prepared for it is far greater than trying to insulate society. 

30 minutes ago, FireStone said:

But we're not putting them in the same troop or tent. I don't disagree with Mike's comments on safe spaces, but he's using strawman arguments to build his case. 

Interestingly enough, he makes a good point about creating a unified effort in challenging the "safe spaces" movement. I think he could still make as strong a point without resorting to the "boys and girls tenting together" fear mongering. 

"According to their official statement, https://cnn.it/2HOv7gY, the Boy Scouts are welcoming girls because that’s what the overwhelming majority of parents want. From what I can tell, no one is being “forced” to do anything. Nothing in their statement talks about “co-ed” camping or even co-ed Troop Meetings.

As I read it, The Boy Scouts are launching a separate program that serves girls. Yes, The Girl Scouts are pissed, and the reason is clear – they don’t want the competition. https://theatln.tc/2l0pq4f. But respectfully, is that argument even remotely persuasive? Competition is good, even among organizations that have similar goals. Especially now, with 90 million kids in this country unaffiliated with any youth-based organization. So I’m not opposed to building a program within Scouting for girls. But I am very worried about the future of Scouting in general."

Nonsense. he's not using strawmen arguments.  earlier in his piece (posted above) he clearly states that he understands the current plan is for girls to have their own troops.  There is no straw man.  He's saying he doesn't think girls and boys should be in the same troop.... SHOULD we get to that place.  Read the whole piece. 

for the moderators consideration, the topic discussion started as "is this choice because of girls", but that was quickly debunked and it evolved into  if the US should be hosting an event that flies directly in the face of it's YPT rules. 

On 5/18/2018 at 10:47 AM, Eagle1993 said:

There is roughly 60M youth in scouting age in USA.  All scouting combine probably has 4M youth?  I would be more interested in seeing why 56M youth are not in scouting vs worry about the 0.03M in Trails Life or few thousand in all of the other various scouting organizations.  

See the Mike Rowe post for that reason. 

2 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Knife, flashlight, first aid kit (very basic), small binoculars, tissues, eyeglass repair kit, microfiber for eyeglasses, phone charger bank, phone cords, sunglasses, can coozie.  If 55% of men started carrying them, I would. 

I have a backpack I carry every day, it's got small first aid kit, tissues, battery pack and charger cords, sun glasses, hand sanitizer and a couple of cliff bars in it, standard.  knife and flashlight are in my pocket. 

On 3/14/2018 at 2:43 PM, JasonG172 said:

So I am the CubMaster and I wanted to present my COR which is also a den leader with the Unit Leader Award of Merit.  Well it appears only CM, SM, Advisor or Skipper can receive this award.

My COR isn't your run of the mill COR she truly embodies the very definition of COR and shes "TRAINED" I take great pride in that because most COR's in my area are non existent.

 

I would like to award her with something

 

nominate her for the Silver Squirrel award

http://northshorebsa.org/awards/ss/form.shtml

😛

On 5/18/2018 at 1:04 PM, The Latin Scot said:

In my council uniforms are worn to everything. I was especially impressed by how well uniformed our district was during the entirety of Camporee weekend and Scout-O-Rama this past month. I gotta say, uniforms are being worn much more often and more correctly than when I was a Scout in this area growing up. So yeah - lots of people are still wearing the uniform on their activities. I guess just not where you live.

Wearing the uniform in public while doing cool things is literally a walking advertisement for Scouts.  Going out in public wearing a t-shirt is adversing... nothing. 

2 hours ago, CedarsEagle said:

So is the current Centennial Uniform being phased out or is this just an option for the females? I just bought 3 Centennial and 3-4 gently used ODL uniforms last fall when I came back to Scouting with my son. 

my understanding is the uniforms being surveyed are for girls. 

I think this ties in rather well to Mike Rowe's sentiments.

https://reason.com/archives/2017/10/26/the-fragile-generation

On 4/22/2018 at 12:27 AM, The Latin Scot said:

Wow, the girl in the last pic looks exactly like my niece!

Frankly though, I still prefer the yellow neckerchief with the Cub Scout uniform, although I do understand the convenience of establishing uniformity with all the color schemes.

"blue and gold" are the colors of the Cub Scouts.  The "Pack" and the "wolf" are at the center of the "Cub Scouts".  Changing Wolves to red is foolish.  Make the lions red.  

all I'm seeing here is a bunch of men mansplaining why girls getting clothing they want is a bad thing. 

On 1/19/2018 at 4:08 PM, Tampa Turtle said:

I think the logic is some girls want to DO the same things as boys but not BE boys. Therefore some accommodation of the uniform may be needed and ,while I wish scouts had remained male only, an altogether reasonable step. Equality of program and opportunity should not equate to exactness of the cut of clothing; especially when we have older female scouts. 

Not any worse than changing some of the kerchief colors IMHO.

The Military has male and female members and their are variations in female versions of gear and clothing. 

 

this. 

3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Only to play devil's advocate...

I've been given two or three pocket knives over the years and have never bothered to carry them.  I have to cut something once a week or so.  When I do, I grab a pair of scissors or a utility knife from the garage.  To me they're just a tool. I don't carry a screwdriver around, why would I carry a knife?

I'm glad we have the freedom to do it, but it's not a big deal to me at all.

That's fair, freedom first imo.  For me, having it on me has proven convenient in a multitude of ways, but mostly because I've only assessed what needs fixing when it's already in hand well away from my work bench were better, more dedicated tools are located.  cork screw has proven it's worth more times than I can count and maybe only 1 out of 10 times to actually open a wine bottle, scissors have given me a quick nose trim in the mens room out in public many a time, the blade has cut more than it's fair share of fruit while at work, scored cardboard for kid's art projects, stripped insulation from wiring in the server room, Lord knows I've used the flat head for more than it should be allowed to be used for, etc etc etc.  The swiss army knife is the greatest multi-tool ever created imo and I can't imagine being without one. ever. 

Also, Gibb's rule #9: "Never go anywhere without a knife".