ShutterbugMom

At what point do you draw the line?

We are planning to repeat the 3 mile hike and cast iron cooking during a regular (extended) den meeting.  But I guess my thought is if they miss it a second time, they need to do it on their own.  After another month or so, the weather here will be rather unpredictable.

We also only had 2 scout show up to do the grocery shopping portion of the Cast Iron Chef.  I think for that they can make it up with their families.  That should not be difficult for anyone.  

I should clarify - we changed the day we meet as a den this year to try and accommodate more boys due to sports and the amount of homework in 4th grade, and the den leaders work schedule.

The camp out we are having to finish several of the activities has been set in stone for months.  We have a few kids that miss meetings however due to being at the other parents house (and the parent with custody will not allow the other parent on the e-mail list) or they chose a family outing instead. 

For the most part, we don't mind repeating requirements, as long as the kids / parents are making a true effort to be there most of the time. 

However, we did the shopping requirements for cast iron chef yesterday and only a couple showed up.  We will have them do on their own as it should not be difficult.  (I know several of the kids had a bunch of homework last night...including mine, but he went anyway.  Some of the parents won't bring them if they have a lot of homework.)

My own personal jury is still out on this one.  Part of the reason is we may not be using the same definition of discipline.  I'm both a coach and cub leader and I've yet to find a consistently good way to drive and reinforce proper behaviors in a scouting environment (help & suggestions welcome).  Granted my experience on the sports side is much more extensive.  A practice/game is a very different setting than a meeting/camp out.  For example, I'm not a yeller on the sports field but can still use my voice to convey urgency, expectations, dissatisfaction, and to motivate.  And at times a whistle is an effective tool.  But with scouts we're often in a more controlled environment and I don't feel I can often use the same tools.  And I feel scouts has more problem kids than sports.  Or perhaps I should more accurately say more problem behaviors.  I'm thinking specifically of cases were kids lack focus and self control.  It sure is prevalent in our pack with a few kids.  On a sports field the behavior would not be tolerated, but as scouting is generally more accepting, we need to do more to manage through it.   

 

Part of my conflict is I don't think my personal style on a sports field works in a scout setting.  I like to encourage energy and enthusiasm, call it a "let's go get 'em" approach.  And when necessary, I don't know how or why, I can quickly bring a team back under control for a serious coaching point or other calmer activity.  In scouting I find once the kids get the energy level up it becomes a runaway freight train and all control is lost. 

I agree.  My husband is a den leader and coaches baseball.  Twelve kids on a baseball field are much easier to control than 8 at a den meeting.  For some reason, they seem to view scouts is a license to run wild.  Maybe they should run a few poles before the meeting.  

Back to the OPs question, can the Webelos II meet on a different night to accommodate all the boys?

We've changed our Webelos 1 meeting to try and accommodate the boys playing sports (which includes my son.)  About half of our boys also play a sport.  Not only that, our parents that volunteer the most are also the parents that are volunteering to coach / help with the sports activities too.

My 14 year old has played competitive baseball and golf for years.  Sometimes it has conflicted with scouts and sometimes it has not.  Thankfully, we have a super troop that understands.  He may not make it to Eagle as fast as some of the other boys, but he has plenty of time.  We've supported him doing both, and enjoys all the activities and his church youth group.

Some of the posts make it sound like sports are not worthwhile because really very few kids get scholarships or become pro athletes.  We've looked at the opposite way.  Yeah, we don't expect any college scholarships or pro contracts, but if you have a child that loves baseball....his sports career is pretty much limited to when he IS a kid.  Why would we want him to quit something he loves when this is the only time in his life he will probably get to play?

We've encouraged golf and scouts as activities that will serve him the rest of his life.  As parents, I guess all we can do is "Do Our Best" and hope that our children have great childhoods and turn into awesome adults.

In our Webelos den we have 9 boys.  We usually have about 7 in attendance at various meetings.  We have changed days to accommodate what we believed to be the most people. (We had a couple complaints a month after the fact....they had a chance to speak up but did not.)

So this weekend is the big pack camp out and we plan to do some of the Cast Iron Chef and Webelos Walkabout requirements, such as cooking a meal and completing the 3 mile hike.

Only 6 of the boys are coming.  So do we repeat the requirements at a den meeting or just tell them to complete them on their own?  

What do you usually do in your group?

Overall, I think the new requirements are pretty good.

I do not like some of the requirements such as going grocery shopping as a den.  It really doesn't work very well.  We tried to do this as a den last night and only 2/9 boys showed up since it wasn't a regular meeting night.

Also, I would like it if the tasks were separated for tracking a little better.  For example, this task (part of Cast Iron Chef) included the menu planning AND going shopping.  So what do I do?  We menu planned at the last meeting, then went shopping a few days later.  So some have only finished half, so I cannot mark it as complete.

Sports is really a hot topic.  My boys do both sports and scouts and it is hard.  Usually it comes down to the parents not being committed to both activities because in cub scouts, they CAN complete activities at home even if they miss the den meetings.  

Our pack has a terrible time getting people to volunteer.  My husband is the Webelos den leader and I usually send out the e-mails and help him plan.  Last week we asked for a few volunteers (bring water for the boys, lead a game  - already planned, just show up and lead it, and a couple other, equally easy things.)  Out of 12 families, 10 who are active as far as I know, we got ZERO volunteers.  So what do we do?  Show up and do nothing?  They know that we will just do it all, and nobody will help.  I am beyond frustrated and feeling annoyed.

I had a similar question.  We have only two Webelos 2, that have already done most of their requirements for AOL (did the badges last year.)  However, we had a new 5th grader / Webelos 2 join this year.  He would have to do all the new requirements of AOL in order to cross in February (which is what is normal) and it is different from what the other boys do.  Alternatively, can he just join the Webelos 1?  Or is he not allowed to since he is a 5th grader?   We want him to enjoy himself and follow the rules / requirements of course.  (I should mention or Webelos 2 leader is not very active and they completed most of their stuff last year piggybacking with the Webelos 2 from last year.)

guessing, but the $10 is likely what council collects to cover dues till recharter.....

that's what they do around here....

 

Personally, I like the model that our pack follows

We try to do one fundraiser per year.

It limits the focus on money

we charge a one lump sum Pack activity fee payment.  I think we're doing $85 for the year this time.

it covers most of the expenses - boys life, a t-shirt, the awards an average boy will earn, leaders dues, and in theory some other operating expenses.

that + our one fundraiser covers everything

if someone can't afford it, we'll cover it..... but I'm not sure that ever happens.  didn't in my time

 

then we can focus on the program and not another fundraiser

 

regardless if your CO covers dues or not, I would think a better approach would be to collect dues.  Your CO is covering $24 a head, so yours could be $60, or whatever your committee feels it needs to be.

This is exactly right.  When the boys join in August / September, the fee is usually about $12 for 4 months (includes Boys Life) so since this year it will only go through October, it will be $6 or $9.

Your $85 is exactly what I estimated for our pack (including the recharter fee and our CO actually pays for Boys Life also.)

We are having our planning meeting in the next couple of days, so I'm sure we will have to decide something.  My husband is on the page that we should not punish the boys (charge dues) because the parents lack of motivation, and I tend to agree with that.  However, I think moving forward, starting at roundup and our first pack meeting, we need to explain to parents the importance of fundraising and explain that there will need to be changes if fundraising goals are not met.  Thankfully, we are still pretty flush and could cover an entire year with no fundraising.  However, I just see this dwindling away each year and I don't want that to happen.

Even more importantly, we plan to emphasize to parents that they need to be involved.  They don't have to all be den leaders or committee members, but they need to volunteer for something.  This probably bugs me more than the money issue.  Everyone assumes someone else will do that....and we do...usually about 10 of us.  

I will let you all know what our pack decides and how it goes.

 

 

But it really comes down to two things i think

1) some folks have a "servant's heart", and others just don't

2) setting the expectation early and clear!

 

 

45 parents....

So am I right to assume 20ish boys in the pack?

 

Oh, one more thought... if parents don't pay dues, then they are less likely to value it.

Yeah, we have 28 that I would consider active....some are siblings, and some come from single parent homes.  We have not had our annual round up yet.

I do think we need to change our expectation -- we are having our planning meeting this weekend.  I think we should tell them they sell "x" amount of popcorn (or for returning scouts they can have a combination of all three fundraisers) or they pay a yearly fee in October.  

I don't see how this is an issue.  My kids also play sports.  My oldest son's baseball team had a steep fee AND a big fundraiser.  They expected everyone to participate, and they did.

Your kid joins, you join, you sign up to work something or hold some role. Period. If you don't, we're not the unit for you.

 

 

I like that suggestion.  Not everyone has to be a den leader, but if you have an area of expertise, you can lead one meeting or activity per year!

If one is working with the Scouts, then the funds should be apportioned appropriately.  If you provide 5 volunteers and they provide 95 volunteers, the pack gets 5% of the proceeds.  If that doesn't generate sufficient funds to float the pack, then the boys will go without.  One cannot spend money they don't have.  Money talks.  Make it clear to the parents this is the process that they need to consider.  If the pack doen't have the money, then the parents pick up the tab or their sons go without.

That is exactly what my last e-mail told the parents.  That the troop would cover, but they would receive that portion of the proceeds and we would need to cut back our program.  I am fine with charging a fee, but I don't think those parents that have floated the pack the last couple of years should have to pay a fee.

I wasn't sure whether to post under Issues & Politics, Cub Scouts or Fundraising.

We have a huge issue with our cub scout parents not wanting to volunteer to help at den meetings / outings or with fund raising.

We are a pack that has been around for over 50 years and I have been involved for over 8 years now with my boys.  This has really just happened in the last 3-4 years.  We have three fundraisers per year -- popcorn, selling Scout Expo Tickets (for units that haven't done this you sell $1 tickets with many coupons on them in front of a store...it's super easy) and we sell bottled drinks at the county fair in the summer.

We really need about 20-30 volunteers (there are about 45 parents in the pack) each working a 4 hour shift at the fair, and the same six parents that volunteer for everything are the ONLY ones that have volunteered.  We have about 2/3 participation in the other fundraisers.  Some parents do not participate at all (and sadly, these are the parents who's kids win the Pinewood Derby and everything else).  We have nearly 100% participation in the PInewood Derby and only about 50% in Scouting for Food.   This is highly frustrating to me (I am the Committee Chairperson.)

Luckily, our associated Boy Scout Troop has an abundance of volunteers and can easily cover the fair for us and are willing to do so.

I am not sure how to get people to really "step up" and help.  I should mention that we have a great Charter Organization who provide not only a place for us to meet, but also pay the recharter for all the boys every year.  The parents literally pay nothing after the initial registration, which is under $10.  (They buy the uniform.)  However, to pay for Advancements, Blue and Gold, etc, we need the fundraisers.  I am absolutely okay with telling people either they help with the fundraiser or pay a yearly fee, although I am sure that will be bet with resistance since it has never been done.  

Or do I just suck it up and move on knowing that my youngest will move to the troop in 18 months?  We are in a middle income area, and I should mention that most parents would not have difficulty paying the fee.  We would be glad to waive it for those who are truly needy (although I think they could volunteer their time in that case and in most instances.)

Historically, our cub scout pack has never charged any sort of dues, and was able to completely function off fundraisers. Our charter organization is kind enough to pay the recharter fees each year.

However, since the fee went up last year, the CO amount has not been able to cover the fees. Normally, this would not be a problem, but we are having a huge problem with fundraising also.

We plan to start charging a set amount at recharter each year. Part of this is due to the fact that kids get re-chartered and then disappear. For example, 4 kids in our pack were at the 12/2 meeting, and very active, were rechartered, and haven't been heard from since.

Anyway, we totally up the cost and for re-chartering (just the part not covered the CO), and everything else normally covered by the pack (Pinewood Derby cars, scarf and slide, all the awards, Blue and Gold, etc) it is nearly $100 / scout.

I really hate to charge that much, and of course we plan to let them pay their fees with fundraising. Is this a good idea, or should we charge perhaps, just $35 at recharter, and push the fund raising much more.

Thanks for any insight you might have!

Thanks!

Thank you for all the replies. I guess I try to much to be a people pleaser....I do not want any of the boys to be disappointed at Blue and Gold.

In response to having 14 in our den....we started the year with 9, and had 5 new scouts sign up! In addition to a DL, we also have an ADL and a Den Chief. Typically, we open together and then divide into two groups and do two different activities, or two groups doing the same activity...one with the DL and one with the ADL. It works out fine since several of the parents are willing to help, and we have a large meeting area with plenty of indoor and outdoor meeting space.

From what everyone says, I feel like we are doing all we can. I will make a copy of the e-mails I send out to hand out at the next meeting also. I love the way there are 24 achievements and you only need 12. We have two more to do to meet our 12 (they were required to do two family requirements at home and have known about it for months.) That will leave us three meetings to add additional requirements to help boys that have missed. Assuming our meetings don't get snowed out.....

We do still meet after Blue and Gold, but with a couple pack meetings, Spring Break and testing week at school (we don't meet) it only leaves us 5 more meetings. Also, I notice a dramatic drop off in attendance after Blue and Gold because a huge amount of kids in the area play baseball (including mine.) We will still have meetings, and either the DL or ADL will be there. They have plenty of time to finish but the parents do have to put out effort.

My husband is the bear den leader and I do lots of "behind the scenes" preparation. What do you do about boys that miss meetings? For example, we had 2/14 boys miss when we did the Whittling Chip. My husband stayed late to do it with those boys at another meeting. However, our last meeting in December (which was the 11th) we had only 4 boys out of 14 there. We knew 3 would miss for basketball practice and had made arrangements to get them the stuff to complete the requirements since we knew ahead of time.

However, we were making bird feeders which required preparing the seed ahead of time for the meeting and keeping it in a crock pot. We had to use the leftover seed..it couldn't be saved. Also, we had all the stuff to make Christmas ornaments. Should we make the effort to "catch these boys up" at the next meeting? This would require basically repeating everything we did at that meeting. After the meeting, I sent a note detailing what we did at the meeting and the information that they would need to do this at home, (plus a link to the simple bird feeder we made.) I am not sure what to do here...of the 7 that we didn't know were missing I have not heard a word from them at all. They were very active before this meeting, So I just think it was a random occurrence before Christmas for most of them (one is *very* sporadic unless it is a purely FUN meeting...I'm sure he'll be at the Pinewood Derby for example.)

Also, we have only 5 meetings left before Blue and Gold. We need 3 to complete the rest of our requirements. We plan to keep the others as "catch up" meetings. However, if it snows, we could lose meeting days (we do not meet if school is not in session.)

I am not sure what to do, and get minimal response from the parents. I am frustrated as several of the kids and parents are very dedicated, however, about half of them are not. Do we just press forward and not worry about it? I do send out PLENTY of e-mails (weekly) so they know the schedule, upcoming events, and what we did at each meeting. I also send out individual e-mails to the parents of kids that miss. Frankly, it is taking a toll on me when I get no response. One parent did tell me that sometimes it goes to SPAM, but there is nothing I can do about that on my end. (Which I told her...I told her she needed to check with her e-mail provider to determine how to prevent that.)

Thanks for any good insights you might have!

Maybe your charter organization could help you with expenses until the pack gets on its feet?

My sons are 5 years apart, so my youngest became a Tiger 6 months after my older one became a boy scout. They are now bears and he has basically been their den chief the whole time (although he did not need it for advancement at first.) It has helped him learn leadership and it is very helpful to my husband who is the den leader. We thought it as a natural fit for him since he was going to be at the meeting anyway. We did confirm this with our Scoutmaster. He keeps a journal each week of what he did in the meeting and I am sure to take pictures in case there are every any questions in the future of whether he has actually done any work at den chief. I will say he has much more responsibility and work to do as den chief than he did when he was patrol leader. In addition, as a patrol leader, he had to deal with several other scouts that were deliberately uncooperative and told him they would be to his face. That was nearly impossible situation for a 12 year old, although it would be a good challenge for an older boy. Den Chief is much more helpful to his development since he does have a bit of natural authority over the younger kids.

In reference to ScoutTrack, we still sign off the boys book and have them look through it. As both the person that enters everything for our den and the former Advancement Chairperson, ScoutTrack is totally awesome!

Especially for wolves and bears, it is hard to keep track of all the achievements and electives on paper and ScoutTrack makes it so easy. When I was the Advancement Chair before ScoutTrack I had to practically beg the den leaders to send me their advancements and many of them would call at the last minute even after my deadline. It was so frustrating. With ScoutTrack they seem to update it after each meeting and all the information is in there when needed. They still have deadlines, but it is not the big deal that it once was.

I love the suggestion about the boys getting their new neckerchief, slide and book at crossover. So far, our pack only has crossover, but I would like to at least see them do the scarf and slide....that would be awesome!

I agree with the above poster. Many new parents don't really know what is expected of them, and honestly, a first grader is only minimally in charge of what they complete. Where we live, none of the boys could attend a meeting without an adult bringing them, so honestly, I think it is on the parents as much as one the boys.

I guess I was mainly wondering if I send e-mails to parents about what the boys have missed, is that enough? We also remind them at meetings of stuff they need to do at home (for example, practicing a fire drill with your family which is one of the bear badge requirements.)

While I like the idea of a poster, I think the bear requirements are some complicated, that it wouldn't help. I have asked everyone to log into ScoutTrack, and so far, only one parent (out of 11 other parents) has checked at all.

I can see everyone's point about wanting to have fun, but going to cub scouts and not receiving any awards is kind of like having baseball practice and never having a game IMO.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. I will continue with the e-mails and then have a catch up day in January/February for any items that might have been missed and can be made up as a group.

Both my sons are in scouts and in various sports year round...mainly baseball. My oldest is in 8th grade and has been in scouts since he was a Tiger and he plays competitive baseball. It's a juggle during the main part of the season (spring). We have had times where one parent has taken him to baseball practice and the other went to scouts to make sure we knew what was going on and sign him up for anything that needed signed up for. By his age, it seems like most of the sports kids have left scouts. The ones that are left have parents that are very involved with both activities and think they both are important in my opinion. We've also had the "change uniforms in the car between practice and scouts" and he has arrived late at camp due to a baseball tournament, but overall it has worked out okay.

My husband is also the den leader for our younger son's Bear den. I posted this as a separate thread but I have heart burn when people miss if I fear they will not do it what they missed at home. I always e-mail out what was missed and ask those parents to complete what we missed at home. Right now, I would say about 50% of them are on top of and get it done, and others I don't hear back from. I guess this is normal. It is going to come down to what the kids want to do and what the parents are willing to do.

How long do the religious ed classes meet? In Scouts we never meet on Sundays or Wednesdays because that is church time here. If it is at another time, I would just go ahead with the den meetings and make sure they know what is being missed. It is impossible to change the calendar for everyone.

I tried to do that this fall to accomodate several kids playing two different sports and for 6 weeks we alternated two different days. It did not work...the kids I was trying to accommodate did not come on the days I had planned for them to not have a conflict anyway. I won't do that again unless it affects over half the kids (we change meetings due to school night events for example.)

Wow....there are so many different opinions! I do what someone else suggested and send out an e-mail after each meeting. I do have people saying that people just don't read e-mails (which I know is true, but that's their problem.) We do almost everything at the meetings, but there are just a couple things to do at home. I just don't want sad kids because their parents didn't read their e-mail. I expect this will be even tougher when they move to Webelos next year.

I think this drop off is very common also. My older son's group transitioned to Boy Scouts with 14, and that was totally abnormal for the pack which usually had 3-6 each year. My younger son's bear den currently has 14, so we will see what happens.

I truly think sports plays a huge issue in this. By the time they get to middle school, many of the boys that want to play sports will drop out of scouts. And on the flip side, by then many other kids have quit sports and focus on scouts. We have encouraged our boys to do both because they both offer so much. Also, truthfully, most children are not going to be MLB/NBA/NFL players, but I believe all boys with a good work ethic can become Eagle Scouts. :-)

As leaders, we have tried to keep any boys that miss the meeting up to date and make sure they know what needs completed, but beyond that it is up to the parents. My oldest has played three years of competitive baseball with up to 3 practices and 5 games per week at times and still managed to attend most of the scout events. He does miss many of the spring camp outs. I think it is totally up to the amount of time the child and parents are willing to put into each activity. (Plus, how many kids there are in the family, how the child handles schoolwork and of course many other factors can come into it.)

My husband is the den leader for Bears and I am the committee chairperson for our pack. We recently combined with another pack and have gone from 7 cubs to 14 in our den. It's a bit big, but we are managing since most the parents are fairly helpful and we have a den chief, and a large area where we can meet.

The question I had is what does everyone do if a scout misses a meeting and the activities that were completed? Nearly all the activities can be completed at home, so I normally send an e-mail to the parents of the scouts that misses and tell them what they missed, ask them complete achievements x, y, and z at home and to let me know when they complete them so I can mark them off. These are not hard achievements -- they can generally be done one on one in 10-15 minutes. For some of the more active achievements we try to repeat them at other pack meetings (such as the Buliding Muscles Achievement) but with that many scouts, it has not always been possible this year.

We are on track to finish our first three achievements tonight so everyone can receive their first bead at the pack meeting next week. However, what if some of them do not? Some of the parents are great and keep me informed and show us everything they complete. Others...not so much. I feel bad giving it to half the boys, but not the other half, but on the flip side, I have sent multiple e-mails and have given them the deadlines.

It is usually just 1-2 that miss each meeting to illness, sports or school work. I totally understand having to miss the occasional meeting as both my bear and my Boy Scout also play sports all year round (and several times my husband has been at scouts leading the boys while I have our scout at his game...ha, ha!). I guess I've always made sure they keep up, so it stresses me when other people are not responding.

We also use ScoutTrack so the parents can track their scouts progress at any time, but most do not.

Thanks for any ideas!!