sctmom

Andrews writes:

"Would you think a girl could (should) grow up to be a woman with no "all girl" experiences? If not, why should the same not be said for a boy? "

I didn't have ANY all girl experiences growing up. I grew up with both male and female role models. As a teenager I worked in a small town hardware store, which was unusual where I lived. As a female I have been the minority in classes and work during high school, college and my career. Often being the ONLY female in a group. My father taught me as much about being an independent adult as my mother, maybe more so. I don't try to be "one of the guys", I accept who I am and expect the men to accept me as an equal.

I'm one of the first to stand up and say that male and female are different in many ways. Maybe I'm the exception, but my son is just as much "boy" as the other scouts even though he spends more time with me than with males. Yes, I want him to have strong male role models, because he needs to see not all males are like his father (only watches TV, no hobbies or interests).

Yet, I still am at a loss as to what I can't teach him and what you can't teach your daughters.

"Tell any nay say'rs who object to bike helmts that these kids have good brains and you want to keep them that way. Let the rest be implied.... "

As I tell both boys and parents "I really don't want to be cleaning blood and brains up off the road." Gross, yes, but said with a smile and I got their attention .

For my own son "I really like the way my son's head is shaped, kinda like to keep it that way."

"I WISH WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED AT CERTIAN LEVELS IN THE SCOUT PROGRAM i.e. SCOUTMASTERS OR ASSISTANTS AND CERTIANLY NOT ON CAMPOUTS. THE BOYS IN MY TROOP DO NOT WANT THEM ON CAMPOUTS EITHER. WHEN A MOM DOES ATTEND, THE BOYS ACT DIFFERENTLY AND EACH TIME I AM ASKED WHY WE HAVE TO ALLOW MOMS ON CAMPOUTS. "

How do they act different? Depending on a "camp mommy" to do things for them? Or better behaved? What is it about moms on campouts they don't like? They can't have body noise contests?

I WISH that more males were teachers beginning in elementary school level. The main reason they are not is that our school systems don't pay them enough and modern society seems to say men shouldn't teach small children.

I want my son to have good male role models. But as a female I can teach the scout skills, some merit badges, and scout spirit. Can I teach my boy to be a "man"? Yes, because I teach him to be an adult -- to think for himself, respect others and respect himself. No, I don't have him in the yard teaching him to box and fight. I don't think many dads do that today either.

If I am trained, qualified and dedicated, why can't I be a scoutmaster or assistant scoutmaster. Isn't this a boy-led program with the adults there for support?

"I EXPLAIN TO A MOM WHO WANTS TO ATTEND AS I STATED ABOVE. THE PROGRAM IS FOR THE BOYS AND WHILE SHE WILL BE WELCOMED BY ALL LEADERS WE TRY TO GIVE THE BOYS A PROGRAM AS THEY WANT IT."

You may say in WORDS that all are welcome, but from your post it sounds like your non-verbal clues make it clear that women are NOT welcome. Your boys have picked up on this message loud and clear.

I know the moms who run around afraid the kids are going to get dirty or afraid of bugs or afraid of the dark, but not all women are this way.

There was a discussion at our recent Cub Scout leader meeting concerning making the kids wear helmets when riding their bikes in a parade. One male leader didn't know why we made such a "big deal" about this. First, it is a safety issue, second it is a LAW where we live that anyone under the age of 16 must wear a helmet when riding on a public road. He really wanted to cause a big stink about it. My point was as adults we should set examples for our children by making them abide by the law and as scouts we are sending a message as to how we see the law. The Boy Scout handbook specifically addresses boys should abide by laws and if you don't agree then work within our constitional system to change them.

Do I want my son influenced a lot my men like this? No. I know not all men are like this, but most of the male leaders in our pack send the message that the bike helmets are a nuisance and we can ignore the laws unless someone is looking. It was us moms running around before the parade to see that helmets were on properly. It was also the moms walking the parade route making sure no one got lost, fixing chains that came loose, picking up kids who fell, getting kids back to parents at the end, etc. Most of the men leaders and dads were not there at all. One man rode a bike, 2 men drove trucks in the parade for the some kids to ride on. About 6 moms walked or rode bikes, one mom pushing a stroller with a 2 year old. One man said it was too far of a walk for him (geez, a lot of us have feet and leg problems). Do you think I want to trust these men with my 12 year old for a weekend? Hmmmm..some days I'm not sure.

Eisely, good points. The military is not just about fighting and being mean. They do a lot for our country and for the young men and women who join them.

There is a difference between military and militia hate groups. That has to do with attitude and behavior. I've seen scout groups in official BSA uniform that acted like their were in boot camp. The adults were resonsible for this behavior not the boys. Regardless of what the kids have on, the adults are there to make sure things don't go too far -- as in the case of the troop that so carried away about nighttime "war" games. Isn't that when an adult is to step forward and say "enough, you don't do that HERE"?

I agree. I just hear some people (not necessarily on this board) who think they have "solved the problem" but not "allowing" gays. They will be there no matter what rules you make.

I was thinking more about this whole subject this morning. This website we are discussing is run by a guy who was abused as a child. He is trying to protect others from this same horrible event. I do applaud him for that. I think pedophiles are about the lowest scum on earth. From one view I'm glad this man will educate others on what can happen, including the comments that many pedophiles are married. Also, because of pedophiles, parents and youth leaders have to spend so much valuable time protecting both our children and ourselves. This is time and energy that could be spent on on other things if we could trust no on would hurt our children. But it's not worth the risk.

It's not just about homosexuals but also

straight men and women who take advantage of children of the opposite sex, and many other perversions. There are many kinds of abuse a man can to do a young boy that do not qualify as "homosexual" behavior. I believe it has been proven that people who commit sex crimes cannot be reformed. I have no tolerance for these people (male or female).

As I get older I am finding out more and more about the women in my family that were abused by their fathers, brothers and uncles. My sister and I are so thankful that we were spared this tragedy. My mother went to great lengths to protect us while remaining in contact with the family. I don't believe any of the boys were sexually abused, but they may have been. My mother also did not let my brother be left alone with these men, I don't know if she had the same fear for him or not.

My point is that this isn't just about gays. If you want to argue that gays are immoral, I may disagree with you but I understand your beliefs. I understand not having your children around people who oppose your values -- I do the same. To say all or most gays will abuse childen is not correct. The same as you cannot say all or most married men with daughters abuse their daughters. Gays who flaunt their sexuality also do not represent all gays. Just as men who run around on their wives or beat their wives do not represent all married men.

We all make generalities about groups of people, myself included. It's a shame that we do and do not look at each new person as a true individual.

Rooster,

Well said!

My son is 10 years old, as he becoming more aware of differences in people, including his on ADHD situation, I am trying to stress to him this is NOT an excuse for bad behavior or not doing schoolwork. It is part of who he is and he must learn to live with it. He must try hard to figure out what works for him. Some things may take him longer to do than another kid. Right now we are dealing with the fact he has a mental block about writing any schoolwork. A one page paper assignment can drive him to tears. Yet, he must do it.

The same with he must learn to control his anger or it will control him. Often talking calmly to him after he has cooled down seems to help. He has improved so much in the last few years about anger and violence that it is unbelievable. He's now old enough to begin learning things like 'breath deep and count to 10 when angry'. I'm also going to introduce him to mediatation to give him yet another "tool" to cope.

Also, Scouting helps. As he goes to Boy Scouting in a few months, I hope that working more with the older boys and the other scoutmasters will help him mature.

To be honest -- I wasn't impressed by his info on Gays either. Some of the "facts" seemed biased and I thought it did have "inflammatory statements". But that's just my humble opinion.

Oh, did anyone pick on the statement from a news source he quoted that said many gays are married? Just keep in mind, you can get rid of every "avowed" gay there is and still "they" may be there.

Like a few years ago when Clinton said he would "allow gays to be in the military". That's funny --- they were already there, "allowed" or not.

These diagnosis do mean A LOT!

ADD and ADHD have been around for years under different names. I don't have the book handy so I can't remember all the names used over the decades. Remember those kids known as "hyperactive" back in the 60's and 70's? My cousin was one. It was more of a label not a diagnosis. By the way he is now a 36 year old successful business owner and dad to 2 great kids.

As OGE says, we all remember those kids in school who wouldn't sit still or who seemed in a daze. The ones being told "you are not living up to your potential". The teenager who could rebuild a car engine but couldn't read past a 3rd grade level. He was most likely ADD. Or maybe dyslexic.

Yes, ADD is sometimes overdiagnosed. So are other problems -- I had one doctor who insisted my son was bipolar (maniac despressive). That was her speciality. It was also the latest in her mind since 20/20 had just done a show about it. Many doctors and therapists have their "specilaty" and most of the people who walk through there door get the same diagnosis. Most parents I know made sure they had multiple opinions about their child's diagnosis before medicating or labeling.

For my son, numerous people filled out profiles on him and his behavior including myself, his dad, and 2 teachers. We took him to a M.D., therapist and pscyharist. That was after the school counselor, asst. principal and county school psychologist had talked with him and observed him. Every form answered independently. Everyone had the same basic descriptions of his behavior.

I know that the best family situation for a child is to be in the care of two loving married parents (one male and one female). But this guy lost his credibility with me by being careless with his words.

Just as I'm sure many of you would not listen to the "other" side of the issue if something careless was said right off the bat.

I do feel for this man who is still hurting so bad from his childhood experience, and hope that some day he and all the other victims of abuse can find peace.

I thought about this thread last night when we had our pack committee/leader's meeting. Our cubmaster was unable to attend. But he had spoken to someone earlier in the day to say the pack needed a new pinewood derby track and he had found one he would like to purchase; please get approval to spend $400. One of the committee members said "I don't know why he thinks he needs approval." Boy, are we lucky. We all trust our cubmaster so much we would hand him the entire bank account and know he would only spend what had to be spent. I tried to quickly explain "He is supposed to ask for approval, that's the best policy."

Of course approval was unamious, and conversation quickly turned to could the old track be repaired and donated to another organization such as a church youth group, Boy's Club, YMCA, etc. We never even discussed repairing it for our own use -- we know we are lucky to have to the money to spend and would like to help others.

Wow, what a great pack and great group of adults I'm fortunate enough to be in.

As stated above, the rule is the leader can watch only his/her own son. Other parents can watch their own son plus 1 other. All of the Cub Scout / Webelos leader literature make it clear the intent is for each child to have a parent or other designated adult with them.

Yet, even with this ratio, the Webelos should only camp with Boy Scouts when the Webelos are the focus of the Troop (not the Camporee being the focus).

Eisely and Jmc both talk about how "general" requirements don't work anymore. This is so true. Same subject came up in a discussion at work where a group thinks there has to be a specific form and written procedure for everything done in the company. And in this case we are talking about highly paid and educated adults! Anyone heard of common sense? Can we not trust others to use their best judgment?

We do seem to have become a society that is all about specific wording, ignoring the intent and big picture. I know my own 10 year old already tries to do this with me "but you didn't say for me NOT to do THIS, you only said don't do THAT." Or "you said I could watch 30 minutes of TV, the commercials don't count so I get to keep watching."

Oh, if I only had the answer to this dilema! Then I could write a book and get rich!

Thanks for sharing. Wonderful and very touching.

Girl Scouts do allow men volunteers and also volunteers not related to any of the girls. In addition to 2 deep leadership rule, it is stated that 1 of those adult leaders MUST be a female AND a married couple only qualifies for 1 person in the 2-deep leadership rule.

Some men have found a lot of hostility in Girl Scouts, people thinking they are there "for the wrong reasons".

As already stated, BSA is pretty clear on the rules about co-ed camping (tent usage and bathroom facilities). The young female in question should be held to the same high standards of behavior of all other adults -- in other words no inapproriate relationships with the boys, protecting one's privacy and the privacy of others, no one-on-one contact with the boys, and no running around camp improperly dressed (as in in your undies!).

In general, the people I know who are Native American find BSA's copying of Native American culture very insulting and demeaning. They highly encourage learning about Native American culture, which is very diverse depending on region and time period. Most Native Americans are more than happy to help educate others on their culture.

This is not just a small group of "easily offended", but widespread feeling, from what I have read and understand from talking to others.

Here is a page that addresses some of this topic, with letters to and from BSA National about specific issues.

http://stereotype.drumhop.com

Dang it -- I meant to say I "should NOT pretend to be a nun or priest".

In the not so distant past many of the Native American "themes" wrongly represented the Native American culture, mostly in a negative context. Most of us do not understand that many Native American dances have specific meaning and purpose, many are very sacred and religious. Christian groups would not want someone doing Christian ceremonies "for fun" or without understanding the meaning.

Native Americans are made up of many tribes. Each tribe is unique in it's customs, dress, and culture. Things like feathers have very specific meanings and are to be worn only for specific purposes and by specified people.

I wasn't clear on some of this myself until the last few years. To see a scout leader running around without his shirt and with red, blue, and yellow feathered headdress is ridiculous.

I would think some other religions would have a problem with some of the "great spirit" sayings, since they could be construed as worshiping another god.

Think about how you would feel if a large group organization said your religion's prayers as "fun", not knowing they were prayers. If the group dressed up as religious leaders and used religious symbols inapproriately. Since I'm not Catholic I should pretend to be a nun or priest, and should not perform the ceremonies nuns and priests perform. That would be disrespectful.

Robin, It is is an interesting question, especially since here in the states the Girl Scouts organization has girls camping 8 years old without every parent involved.

For my group of boys, it is preventing at least 3 boys from getting to camp. Their parents have an excuse every time. But then again, I'm not sure I want to be one of 2 adults taking 8 active boys off for the weekend. My own keeps me busy enough...lol.

This website has me fuming, not because of the position against gays but on the home page it talks about "natural family" and the importance of "blood relatives".

My son is NOT my blood relative. Neither is my nephew. I adopted my son when he was born. My brother raised his wife's son since the boy was 2 years old. These are not "natural" or "blood" families. Both mothers made mistakes, they both choose to do the best they could with their children. One choose to take the responsibility of being a mother, and did a fine job (her son is now 24). The other realized she could not provide the type of home she wanted for her son, so she let him go somewhere else to live. I thank God and that mother every day for letting me have the chance to be a mother. Did God bless my family? You better believe it! But not in the way this guy is talking, we are not "blood" relatives. Also, the man my sister's children call "Pop" is not their blood father. Their "natural" father died of cancer when they were teenagers. This man has come into their lives, making their mother happy and taking on responsibility of them as well.

The guy behind this website was molested as a child. That is a true tragedy. He has a right to publish his beliefs about homosexuality. But he alienates many people who don't have the "ideal natural family". I could not objectively read anything on his site due to my anger and disgust at his narrow view of "family". After I calm down a bit, I may write him a letter explaining that his choice of words is very hurtful to many people in this world and will turn many away from his information (not that I agree with much of what he presents).

Here's my two cents worth...

There should be a lights out policy that is strictly adhered to. The getting up time should be agreed to and known by all. And at least one boy should have an alarm clock.

Also, in defense of the boys, they are not necessarily being "lazy". Some people require more sleep than others. To me, 8 hours is a MINIMUM amount of sleep. Growing boys need more than 8 hours of sleep.

My son can sleep through ANYTHING, including falling off the cot and out of the tent (I heard a THUNK, found him outside of the tent in his sleeping bag, still sound asleep). He sleeps 9 or 10 hours every night, and will sleep more if I let him.

I think if the boys are woken up and then refuse to get out of the tent, no breakfast is reasonable (but don't tell them this option exists). But to expect them to wake up on their own without even an alarm clock is way too much.

A scout told me that the first patrol he was in was they were MOOSE. One of the moms in the troop was a hairdresser. She supplied everyone with a can of "mouse". They would hold up the can and say "we're smmoooooothh". LOL

Some of the boys did attend a spring campout that is specifically for Webelos. We spent 1/2 day doing knot tying, string burning, stretcher race, and compass reading. The parents enjoyed it as much as the boys.

I believe there is another Webelos focused event in March. Since my boys won't cross over until end of March, I hope to get some of them to that event. At least for the day, if not the whole weekend.

It is frustrating to have the District and Council telling us something that goes against what all the Leader's manual say.

First I am NOT a football fan of any type. So I didn't get the "Hail to the victor" part at first. Also, we are in the south so not everyone knows there is a football team called the wolverines. We have dawgs and gators down here

A serious problem with many people with ADD is they "don't get it". They don't pick up on social clues or even when it is spelled out to them. I know my son doesn't realize he is different than other kids, even when I point out to him that it is NOT a good difference.

Sounds like you do need some help. Can your district or council help in anyway? Do they have someone who could assist? What about your charter organization? It sounds like you have your hands full just being Scoutmaster and this boy needs more of your time than you can give him. Not saying this is your fault, but you do need some help. Also, ask the parents if there is another relative that would be willing to help him at scout meetings. Sometimes a kid like this will respond better if an uncle, grandparent or older cousin helps out. That also gives mom and dad a much needed break.

Ask everyone you know if they can help. It does sound like this boy needs a lot of attention. The other boys in the troop are only going to help for so long before getting tired of him also. And they are busy themselves.

Do be VERY specific with goals and instructions. Often these kids are very smart and will do things to out smart you. I've had my son argue that commercials didn't count towards his allotted 30 minutes of TV viewing..LOL. He will find loopholes you NEVER dreamed of! A few weeks ago we were practicing knot tying at a den meeting, I turn around to find my son has tied his own ankles together. I asked why he did that -- his answer "You didn't tell me NOT to".

And to repeat, do not just give him advancements he has not earned. He must be made to live up to the standards. One day he will be out there in the big wide world where he will have to compensate for his ADD. As you know, you will be doing him a serious disservice by just passing him ahead to get him out of the way.

Good luck. Keep asking for help.