Scoutndad

I agree with BW... I think this may just have been a poor choice of words. I use the term "interview" since I need to ask about the requirements and we discuss their responses...this way I can determine if the scout or parent fulfilled the requirements and what might be needed to help bridge that gap. Often times, young boys have a difficult time trying to explain themselves and once they have done it and explained it...you never forget how proud they were that they did it by themselves. Problem for me is just getting to the interview with ONE boy on ONE topic!

Wow...you log off for a few hours and come back to some great responses... Great insight from wingnut and Greg...I especially like the SHOULD vs. CAN question which originally prompted my dilemma... SMA-You are on the mark with me earlier postings about the requirements needed WITHOUT a leader being involved... however 8b is there and must be done. To all...I thank you for some truly inspirational responses and look forward to more creative forums in the future and while I can't exactly subscribe to a black and white approach as scouts, I do believe that setting up a cub scout for failure in boy scouts by not doing the right thing now, WILL be my responsibility... Wish me luck..I am speaking with the parents tonight after our monthly parent meeting.

BW- You have personally helped me a great deal today... Now I need to question your last posting - Why would you hold the Scout accountable for the actions of the parent? I believe that the reason behind the "obligation" is to build a strong moral foundation rooted in the religious beliefs of the scout. Why would you deny a 10 yr old boy the right to earn a badge based on a value that has never been taught/learned in the house? (unless he openly recants religious values and conveys no belief or no conclusion of belief) I am a person of strong faith and devotion and my quandry was not "cuz BSA said so" but the integrity and moral convictions of the organization and the values that I am teaching as a leader. So now I deny a boy his hard earned badge and show evidence that it was not my decision, but the BSA and his mother's? (rhetorical) This might dramatize the issue a bit, but the general meaning is still there... What would Christ do in my position?

An accurate assessment NW... At least that was my read and the reason why I think that the scout might qualify for his badge - but of course without the interview and sign off - yikes... You bring up another great dilemma and that is the position of Asst Cubmaster - I am sure she is willing to sign anything without consequence to her own beliefs in order to help out the pack. If I have not made it clear to this point, this mom and dad have been a tremendous asset to our pack which makes this issue much more strenuous. I support and applaud their efforts not only as a family, but supporting parents of the pack. Now, about the BSA website...your statement, "... that is not necessarily clear because the word "agnostic" does not necessarily close the door. The fact that the bsalegal.org web site (a public relations tool of the BSA) says that "agnostics" are not permitted does not necessarily answer the question." I thought it did answer the question about agnostics... By definition, the person's beliefs are inconclusive and may or may not believe in a "higher power". For this person, they are more liberal in the context that they have no problem with calling something "God" in order to fulfill the requirement but is still not convinced that there is a supreme being. Now how do you "label" them? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but I am only concerned with the Scout at this point.

Good question...you are correct for most of the requirements in Cub Scouts, in that Akela signs off... however... The requirements for the Webelos Badge are very specific and REQUIRE the Scout to confer with the Den Leader on at least one of the requirements.-no getting around this one- So while most of the requirements up until now have been a duel role (leader or parent sign off) for the most part...I now have my first major headache... Additionally, as the leader, I have always interviewed my boys on all of their achievements to find the level of "doing their best" - and not being judgemental but ensuring that they are getting the most out of it and not pleasing parents living vicariously through their boys... In this case, it was not close...the forum has issued their edict and I will have a discussion with mom and dad and allow them to decide what is best for their scout.

Laurie- Unfortunately, neither is an option... That's why I turned to the experts...

From Tigers through Bears, my den had a monthly due of $1.00 per scout. For the monthly due, the scouts were encouraged to turn in recyclable pop cans or do extra chores. At the Pinewood Derby while the scouts are Bears (soon to be Webelos), the den families sponsor (purchase, cook and run) the concession stand during the Derby. All proceeds go directly to the Webelos and helps fund all activities without the monthly den dues. As a Pack, we have decide to ask for a $10.00 annual due per Scout. This is new and was a result of auditing prior Cubmaster, CC and Den Leader history to determine how much was coming out of pocket. It was decided that we should try to understand and budget the needs of the pack and the dens, and create more awareness from our parents. As a result, we have quarterly financial sheets so everyone can see where we stand. We also are not bashful by asking local organizations if they would help sponsor our Pack annually (we currently have a commitment from the local Knights of Columbus to help bus tables at 6 of their pancake breakfasts per year and they agree to donate 50% of the proceeds of the breakfast). We also make everyone aware that any that needs assistance should let our Cubmaster know since we don't want to exclude any scout the opportunity to have the time of their life. We also encourage local businesses to donate odds and ends as much as we encourage the Pack families to do the same. Hope this helps since my pockets were not deep and I quickly recognized how this would become a burden.

Bob-great advice (echoed by Laurie and Eamonn)and perhaps my game plan... Laurie-I require at least one parent for every scout to attend and announce to all scouts and parents what is expected for the next meeting - I also provide a calendar, journal pages, and "mission"(homework) sheets for the boys so no one can feign ignorance of their assignments - so short of a newsletter, I try to cover the bases and made my announcement last time to finalize their Webelos badge requirements and call to discuss or schedule time with me... Thanks again, so far, for the great input

Eamonn You are on the money (and echo my sentiments) Of course that puts me right in the middle of a husband wife issue - a place where I choose not to trod. This is a TUFF issue...I want the Scout to advance and by all rights, he should! But how do I respect the families beliefs without giving the ultimatum...as Bob W said, be honest and have a talk with them - and while I agree - just how do I NOT get involved between parents without confronting the obvious....does anyone want to fill in for a month? I was truly ready to step down as Den Leader on this issue since I feel the Scout is doing what he can (but is inhibited by the parent) and if I advanced the scout, it may have appeared that I acquiesced to the mom's belief...

Laurie- Great response... I wish it was a misunderstanding and I don't think dad has any idea what mom is doing...now what? This event just happened on Friday of last week after the mom declined the interview on behalf of her son, then decided to set up an interview, and then finally declined (by email). I refuse, as a den leader, to get involved in the middle of a family affair (especially one so touchy)- help!

8b is the elusive (and required) answer that I was hoping to determine when I interviewed the Scout. 8d is not required if you do two items under 8e. Under 8e, the scout has: -listed two ways that you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs -with your religious leader (parents), discuss and make a plan to do two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things for a month. I agree that the second item is a stretch, but without an interview re this topic, I can't confirm how the Scout did two things that would make him closer to God. There are still other non-biased requirements under 8e that he could fulfill without having a firm religious background and I would still be able to advance him. But it comes back around to good ole 8b... Not trying to argue, but as you can imagine, I have gone through this back and forth and I am trying to search for a reasonable solution...I am not getting paid enough for this job...lol

fotoscout- I am a lousy note taker however the court rulings that the BSA references, includes Michigan case law on this topic (we are located in Michigan)

Thanks for the input BW...I was afraid someone was going to acknowledge the inevitable. Unfortunately, there is enough "wiggle" room under requirement 7 and 8 that the scout may complete, but the only requirement that the scout can not fill is under section 8 unless the scout reviews his requirements. Without the discussion, how can I advance him. Lest we forget, it will not be the parents that suffer the black and white stance of the BSA (which I support 100% otherwise would not have this issue) but the scout who obviously does not comprehend the magnitude of this topic. The Scout and my Asst Den Leader faithfully recite all references to God, however, it is the mother's beliefs that may end this scouts participation.

Help... I am a Webelos Den Leader ready to present 8 out of 9 of my scouts with their Webelos Badge in April. I still have to qualify each scout with an interview to make certain that they have completed their requirments, but after 4 years of these guys, I am pretty confident that they have completed the necessary requirements. However, I have one Scout that has an agnostic mother who refuses to allow me to speak with her son regarding religion or the religious requirements for the Webelos badge. She has gone so far as to threaten to pull him out of scouting if I don't advance him (and he HAS done all of the requirements). For a minute, I thought that I should go ahead and advance him based on the "do your best" and not hold the scout accountable for the parent actions. Then I read the BSA Legal Section which clearly outlines where they stand on Atheism and Agnostic beliefs. Now here is the kicker...the dad is my asst Den Leader(raised in a christian home) and mom is one of the most active, supportive people in my den and our Pack(soon to be Asst Cubmaster). How do I in good conscience, advance the Scout and not lose two of the best resources and poeple that I and the Pack have? I know it sounds selfish, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

What a great idea....best of luck and I echo the sentiments of OldGrey Eagle. As a Webelos Leader, I have a cerebal palsy scout that has been with me for over a year now in my den and it has been a great experience for all of my boys. Since this was new to me, I thought it might take a small discussion about the disability, but the discussion has never transpired and my scouts have treated each other no differently regardless of the wheelchair, physical limitations or other disabilities. The parents of the scout told me what to expect and have been a great source of information. Good luck!