Scouter4321

Barry wrote: "Adding a Venture patrol was there way of saying I know your bored with the young guys, well go on and play, we will take care of them."

This is how it is in the troop that I serve. Some in leadership are encouraging the older boys to join a Venture Crew (not a venturing patrol), giving examples that on their last major outing (a long-distance bike trip), the older boys complained that they had to "babysit" the younger ones.

>>You want to judge how boy run a troop is, just watch the older scouts. Do they take charge of the troop or wait for the adults. Do they control behavior of all the scouts, or stand back and watch it?

Glad to hear you've experienced success in what you are trying to accomplish! Keep up the good work!

Scouter4321

-----------QUOTE: I asked the same question. Apparently it 'takes too much time to set up' and they have decided to only have BORs, quarterly.

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In the troop I serve, all the committee members mark the first week on their calendars so they know they COULD be needed that day. (We also have our committee meetings then, so it does make it easier). Then a quick phone call to confirm attendance is all that is needed when a BOR is requested by a scout.

Perhaps they need to be reminded that one of the goals of the committee is to facilitate advancement of the scouts, not hinder it.

Scouter4321

I have a copy of the Advancement Committee Guide. Here are some portions of it that may help

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page 17

Boy Scout Advancement

Clause 5: Basis for Advancement. The Boy Scout requirements for ranks shall be the basis for the advancement. There shall be four steps in Boy Scout advancement procedure: Learning, testing, REVIEWING (emphasis mine), and recognition.

Clause 7: Responsibility of the Troop Committee. It shall be the responsibility of the Troop committee, under the leadership and guidance of the local council, to make sure that the program of the troop is conducted in such a way that Scouts have an opportunity to advance on the basis of the four steps outlined in clause 5.

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One of the four steps is "reviewing" which is explained on page 24 as: "After a Scout has competed all requirements for a rank, he has a board of review...."

While it doesn't say anywhere in the advancement guide (at least not that I could find) how soon after the requirements are met the BOR has to be, it doesn't seem right that a boy should have to wait three months after finishing the requirements to have a Board of Review.

I am not saying that boys should have BOR's on demand every week, however, I think a compromise would be in order here to truly follow clause 7 above. In our troop, we conduct BOR's the first meeting of the month. In special circumstances, I guess we'd grant one on another week, but so far that's never come up.

Scouter4321

Quote: >>Now at last minute parents want other Troops invited and SM is not wanting that. I forgot to mention the other SM won't attend something another Troop is hosting>So, as my hubby and I are discussing a way to include all boys anyway, the SM calls to say he will be happy to bridge all boys just doesn't want the other SM there.

If the scoutmaster is in front of the group more than the SPL is...

If the committee is afraid to give scouts a fairly simple job to do because "it needs to be accurate"...

If the younger scouts in the troop are being taught by adults while the older scouts form cliques and goof around during a meeting cause they've learned it already...

If a member of the PLC has to fill in for the SPL to perform the opening, and none of them willingly volunteers to do so ("I don wanna do it, you do it..." ...

If new scouts who crossed over from Webelos in March and April don't know the name of their patrol or their patrol leader....

If your son has no idea what is planned for the next Troop meeting, but will find out when he gets there...

If scouts individually bring poptarts for their own breakfast and cold sandwiches for their own lunch to an outing, rather than cook as patrols...

You might be using the Troop method...

Definitely start planning some cool outing and have the current Webelos all invite a friend. Then sign 'em up!

If that doesn't work, I think you should be able to get a "waiver". We have a Venture Crew in our town that rechartered with just 3 youth, with the expectation that they will continue to try and recruit and get the membership back up.

Scouter4321

We moved from a city where the troop my son was in limited the number of boys to 50. The number was set by the Chartered Organization, who wanted it limited due to the size of the facilities. Brothers of scouts already in the troop and boys who were members of the Chartered Org. were always accepted, however, even if it made the number go over a bit.

This troop REQUIRED that with every boy that wanted to join, a parent had to register as an adult leader or as a committee member, and be involved in the troop. Of course, some parents did sign up, pay the fee, and still not participate much, but just having that requirement and having to go through the background checks, etc., tended to naturally limit the number of families who would make that kind of committment. So, only occasionally did the troop go over the number of boys that the CO wished to have. A side benefit was that most of the boys who did join were from families that were strongly committed to scouting.

Scouter4321

Wow, these puns are pretty grizzly.

Dan and OldgreyEagle are correct: technically it is NOT public knowledge because the minor's name was not revealed. But "unofficially" it is common knowledge amoung the other boys, whether it is mistaken knowledge or not (which unfortunately, I don't think it is)

Scouter4321

I was thinking "we" as in the troop leaders. But I guess the scoutmaster could decide at the Scoutmaster conference whether he goes on any further after the project is finished.

I understand what everyone is saying about not getting into dangerous ground as far as legal issues. But, man, it is just so hard though to just let it slide by. It's particularly difficult hearing some of the other boys laughing about it, thinking it was "cool". I was so appalled, I really didn't know how to react to their comments. I'm glad that I've had some time and some advice from you all to help me simmer down before I did something rash.

I think if any of the boys mention it again, I will say that in spite of what they have heard, the boy hasn't been proven guilty. And then, the issue of them laughing and thinking it is cool is another matter that will have to be dealt with. Maybe saying, "If what you are saying were true, what part of the scout law do you think this activity would fall into?". or "Is there a reason why you think this is a laughing matter?"

Scouter4321

He's two months from 18.

Do you mean we can defer the BOR until a time after he is 18? Can we ask for this waiver based on the fact that he was charged? This would seem to be a good solution.

Scouter4321

Wow, what a situation to be in. I know that Lisabob is right and that with the case still unresolved, we should not ask him about it or to require him to admit guilt. On the other hand, we have most of the town knowing he was involved. Certainly, all the boys in the troop know it. I know this can be construed as gossip, but if this boy gets the Eagle rank, that same gossip will ruin the reputation of the troop. "You commit criminal activities and still earn an Eagle Badge at that troop...." And what about the message this will send to the younger boys in the troop?

So, if the committee asks him if there is anything he's done that he regrets and he just says "nope!". Is there nothing else they can do?

Scouter4321

Scoutnut asked: "What if "everyone" is wrong?

At this point it would just be gossip on your part. "

This was my feeling when I asked the question. Although I am pretty sure he has admitted it. I would need to check and make sure. It was a very visible crime and although there were not a lot of details in the paper, it sounded as if the 3 youth involved were caught in the act.

It wouldn't be the first time, this youth was in trouble. It wouldn't be the first time he showed unscoutlike behavior. I'm not even sure how he has been passed up the ranks thus far. (I'm new to the troop, my position is SA).

So if the committee comes out and asks him if he did it, and he admits it, then would we be within bounds to tell council about it? SHOULD the committee ask him about it?

Scouter4321

I hope it is okay to just "threadjack" here. I found this thread pertinent to a current situation in the troop I serve.

One of our scouts was arrested for something, but being a minor his name was not printed in the paper. He was joined in the offense by a boy who is over 18, so that boy's name was in the paper. As a result, everyone knows that the first boy was the other minor involved.

This boy recently had his Eagle project approved and is a few months away from being 18. In our council, Eagle Boards of Review are conducted at the council level. Are we legally allowed to inform the council BOR members of this new information?

Scouter4321

Thanks to everyone for their advice and shared experiences. Here's a brief update on my story.

Talked to the committee and with the Scoutmaster about trying to have a real PLC (currently PLC does not meet) so that we can take baby steps to have a BLT. SM says he would be all for that. But he is discouraged because he feels that times are different, and that boys these days do not want the responsibility or do not have the time for the responsibility of running their troop. There are too many other demands for their time.

A few other committee members seemed to agree that a Troop is nothing more than a youth fellowship group without the leadership aspect. We are probably at a turning point, where we can begin to introduce boy led concepts, slowly.

In the interest of "striking while the iron is hot", how would you suggest we begin? It seems that if we as Adult Leaders and Committee members come in and say "We are going to try this", it's almost as if it is just more adult-led stuff. However, I realize that the boys will not do it without a push and without probably some constant guidance. Do we need the "blessing" of the current quasi-PLC?

My first thought is that we set up a date for elections (not currently done on any sort of schedule), and talk to all the boys about the responsibilities that will go along with any of these leadership positions. That way, if they choose to run, at least they will know what they are getting into and that things are going to be expected to be different.

Scouter4321(This message has been edited by Scouter4321)

Short background. Troop is mainly scoutmaster run. Boys show up, rarely knowing what is planned for that night because they do not plan it. Often they are called that day to be told where to go for the meeting. Only nod to patrol method is when the boys collect dues. No inter-patrol competitions. Very rare patrol outing. When games are played, boys are split up by "counting off" and such. Scoutmaster runs the show for the most part when it comes to skills teaching. He does allow the SPL to do a short opening, and suggest games. Not much peer to peer teaching or older-boy to younger-boy mentoring.

Tonight I attempted to introduce some more facets of the patrol method to the boys. I asked the boys to take a look at some activities that they might like to do so that it could be more of "their troop". I had some suggestions of local things written out, but also said they could discuss it and come up with some of their own. Their attention span was so short that when they broke into patrols to discuss activities, some could not stay in their patrols for 2 minutes and began running around the meeting hall.

Games were played next. The boys chose the games and proceeded to take a fun, active game and turn it into a free for all, knocking down chairs, throwing the church's chalk and pencils at each other, pounding on the piano. A different game was started with similar results after a few minutes. I stopped the game and had words with them saying that I would like them to be able to have fun, but I'd also like them to have some self-discipline to not disrespect our Chartered organization by some of the things they were doing. Just shortly after that, I suggested that they discuss the upcoming Webelos visit to our troop and what activities we might like to plan to do when they visit. I brought up again that they needed to come up with some fun activities that aren't totally out of control. Several boys were smart alecks and said stuff like, "Lets do a multiplication game". (Implying that because they weren't allowed to run rampant, they were expected to not play the more active games)

I know I've often seen it mentioned here that some folks are shocked by the chaos of a Boy Scout Troop meeting. So is this kind of behavior a normal thing in troops? Am I overreacting? I'm not talking about boys playing "Chicken fight" and getting rough when they are playing. That I am okay with, even if chaotic! I'm talking about just the rampant running around and disrespect for property and others.

I'm coming to the realization that these boys have, in a sense, been in Webelos III mode. They have to have some adult telling them what to do and what not to do. They do listen and pay attention to the Scoutmaster's lessons when he is there. Scoutmaster is very knowledgeable on many scouting topics and is a pretty dynamic speaker. However, this leaves little time for any type of leadership for the boys themselves. I guess I'm just disappointed because I've been to summer camps and other scouting events and see scouts (of the same ages) who are so much more mature and showing so much more leadership experience and self discipline than this motley crew.

But after tonight, I am thinking maybe it's just not worth trying to introduce the patrol method. We'll just stay with the status quoi and Webelos III this troop will always be.

Encouragement? Where would YOU go from here?

Scouter4321

You've said a lot of what I've felt as a second-time Webelos Leader.

A worthy goal, yes, but not at the expense of burnout. Some of the more "academic" or "family oriented" pins really need to be done mostly at home. If not, they really can make a den meeting dull. I'm mainly talking about these four: Fitness, Family Member, Traveler and Scholar.

My oldest son, earned 19 of the pins (LOL, just couldn't get "athlete"), however, he's been in Boy Scouts two years now and I don't think I've ever heard boys discussing how many pins they earned in Cub Scouts! Just not worth losing boys over, especially when the Arrow of Light requires only 8 pins. As another poster mentioned, those who are so determined to have the boys earn all twenty pins IN DEN MEETINGS: are they doing this for the boys or for the parents?

Scouter4321

I smiled when I read your post because I also have a son in scouts and one still in cubs and I feel the same way about my oldest's Courts of Honor. I know it should be a "special occasion", but a little fun mixed in would be better. Why should cub scouts have all the fun?

Scouter4321

Yeah, currently, there is no patrol identity. The only thing the Troop does as a patrol currently is for a short period right after the opening, they get together to take attendance and dues as patrols. The patrol leaders DO call the boys to give them info about meeting changes, but that is about the extent of the patrol method right now. No inter-patrol competitions, no patrol planning for troop events, no patrol leaders council.

A few of the newer committee members would like to see more boy-led things take place. So, with their guidance, the patrol outings are just starting to take place. I guess these are birth pains. The parent who has volunteered is the only other parent who has volunteered to go as the second adult. The parent would like to not have to go on outings without both sons.

Scouter4321(This message has been edited by Scouter4321)

Preface: I know that patrol outings CAN be held without an adult present, however, at this moment in time, our troop is just beginning to have boys plan patrol outings and so, for now, we have two adults going along, hanging out at the fringes.

My question: How does your troop handle it when an adult leader chaperoning an outing for one of his/her son's patrols has another son in a different patrol. Do you allow the other son to go?

I think that this is a reasonable thing, if it is the son of the parent who is going. That whole question could be solved by putting brothers in the same patrol, however, that seems to be discouraged in most Troops.

What about "friends" who are in another patrol. Do you ever allow them to attend a patrol outing of another patrol? I think that doing that could end up creating hurt feelings. I.E. Beaver patrol goes on Patrol Outing, Beaver Patrol Member invites his friend from Badger Patrol. Other Badgers may want to go, but are not invited.

I think that an outing should be either a Troop outing where all are invited or a patrol outing where ONLY the patrol members should go. But with that exception about brothers (only if the parent is the one chaperoning).

What happens in your troop?

Scouter1234