scoutdad

Orange cover Guide to Safe scouting 2003 printing:

A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop.

This states clearly that a Webelos scout must be supervised by his parent or his guardian. You cant supervise if you not there. His guardian would be just that , a legal guardian. No where does it say anything about an approved adult.

So - 8 Webelos scouts with 8 distinct parents means a total of 16 will go on an overnighter. The Webelos scouts can share a tent with each other while the same sex parents share a tent, or the Webelos scouts can share a tent with the person legally recognized as his parent or guardian. Do anything else and something bad happens then BSAs legal coverage will not know who you are!

YIS

Scoutdad

Last summer I went to FSB as an adult leader along with 6 boys and another adult. We did the coral reef sailing program. One of us adults (me), was required to be certified in safe swim defense, safety afloat, and pass a Florida boating safety course. The scouts and adults were asked to help with handling lines, anchor, capturing and tying up to the buoys and if needed anchor watches. As you can tell this is not just a simple charter service but a working learning experience, and no doubt that is the reason for the USCG wavier. Also, we never cruised for 12 hours straight, we would stop mid-morning and mid-afternoon to snorkel. I found our boat to be well maintained and the captain knew his stuff. He could maneuver his boat in and out of the cramped marina at Key West without aid of line handlers and never touching the dock. The boats practiced the buddy boat system and were always on the radio checking in with each other. The boat had sleeping berths for 6 below but some of the boys chose to sleep in the cockpit while the other adult leader and myself slept on the fore-deck (much cooler).

I dont know the purpose of this thread, but I checked FSBs web site today and all is ok. Reservations continue for coral reef sailing with a min. 6 and max. 8. I would and I know the boys would go back in a heartbeat.

YIS

Scoutdad

Eagleinky "-SPL - Appointed by the SM. (I know several will disagree with this). The SM & ASMs appoint the SPL from the boys who have served as PL or ASPL. Our opinion is that you need to prove yourself in a patrol leadership position before taking on the SPL role. Therefore, the patrols know that electing a boy to be PL is - in essence - nominating them for future consideration as an SPL."

Far too many adult leaders prefer to select the best of the litter rather that train the one elected.

YIS

Scoutdad

How many boys registered? 21

How many boys active? 19

How many Patrols? 3

Does your troop go to summer camp in or out of Council? In

Does your troop go to Dist/Council Camporees? yes

Does your troop support FOS? yes

Does your troop sell Popcorn? If not, what are your fundraisers? yes

Does your troop use NSP, FCFY method? Yes, yes

Does your troop have a Venture Patrol? Sort of.

Does your troop have a feeder pack? yes

How does your troop recruit non-Cub Scouts? Buddy campouts

Has your troop seen your Unit Commissioner in the past 6 months? Who? What?

Is your Unit Commissioner helpful or a pain? NA

Does your troop leaders attend Roundtable? Yes, 2

How many members are on your troop committee? 8 - SM, 5 ASM, CC, 2 MC

Is your troop boy led? Not really

Our troop would be a good expamle of "troop C". With out change we will be terminal.

I believe that every scout is at some point and in some way worthy of praise. Believing that, I would rotate who is selected as " the very best". But I cant stop there, the scout that is never dressed properly needs positive attention too. I would look carefully for some aspect of his scouting experience that was positive and let him know what a good job he was doing. Maybe with a little pride the next week that uniform might just improve a little. I think Wallace has a good attitude and I like his style.

YIS

Scoutdad

Without debating the merits of the many methods proposed here, I would like to point out that all focus on the negatives. What might be a better response to scouts not wearing the uniform properly is to select from each den/patrol the very best example of a properly uniformed scout to come forward and be recognized. Nobodys feeling could be hurt, a few scouts would be proud, and rest would be determined to "be up front" next time.

YIS

Scoutdad

SR540Beaver

"A guardian can be an adult designated by an absent parent."

If the adult in question is the "guardian", then why can't he sleep with the boy? Why, because he is not the "legal guardian" that the G2SS refers to. The new G2SS is a change from the past and makes clear, at least to me, that they intend for each Webelos to have one of his significant adults in his life with him on a campout.

YIS

Scoutdad

SR540Beaver-

"Keep in mind that Webelos can camp without the pack (as a den) and without a parent present."

The current G2SS (orange cover) states: A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult.

I understand this to mean that a parent must be present.

YIS

Scoutdad

Philmont mess update-

Had committee meeting last night and the issue of the finances of the scout came up. Not a fun meeting but no blood was spilled With four adults out of seven having a stake in the trip it felt like I was defending a young man accused of slashing the tires on the cars of 5 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices. I reiterated that the scout said his participation was conditional at the beginning. They disagreed. I asked when was the last time he indicated an interest in going. They were insistent that he was still set on going in June. The last time funds were taken from his account was in May. I found out that this is a Council contingent trip and that the Council set its own payment schedule and refund requirements and this was given to the scout at some point. We struck a deal to split the scouts current deficit of $103, with the scout repaying $51.50. In all this will cost the scout $143 for the trip he did not go on. If a replacement can be found he could get this money back.

Latter last night after the PLC meeting I pulled the scout aside and talked to him. I told him that the adults involved with the trip were sure he was indicating he was going even as late as June. He says this is not true that he never was all that interested. I asked once again just how got involved in this trip. He said that in a meeting, must have been Aug or Sept. of last year they asked all of those interested to stand up and when he saw his friends stand up and particularly my son, he stood up. One little problem. My son has consistently had no interest in Philmont every time I have asked him. To my son the program has been sold as long days of hiking and more hiking. He doesnt see it as adventure. My son briefly considered going this last Aug. because he thought his friends were going. I discussed the matter further with the scout and he related that his family could not afford the trip for him with the family going to England next year for his step-sisters wedding. Things are beginning to clear up now. At some point I believe a choice was made between Philmont or England. I feel a little like one of those Loony-Tune cartoon characters when the dynamite blows up in their hands. Ouch!

YIS

Scoutdad

I remember those days well... On the nights where the program/craft is just not hitting the spot and the den is sliding in to chaos, just remember these magic words - "who wants to play a game?" No mater what they are doing to destroy the meeting place, all of that will stop and you will be presented with eight sets of eager eyes looking at you intently. Check your scout shop for a book called "cub scout leader how to book". lots of games. I always had a game in my back pocket just in case the kids got bored.

YIS

Scoutdad

Reading SPL- 15s post and his difficulties with adult leadership led me to ponder the Boy Scout program. In the Boy Scout program, all of the roles, expectations and boundaries are set out in the various publications; handbook, SM handbook, SPL handbook, PL handbook, Guide to Safe Scouting, Oath, Law and etc. There is then no need for adult intervention, other than to reference the scouts to the appropriate source material. In the Boy Scout program, the adults are not seen as authoritarian, but a mentors who guide the development of the scouts by well posed questions. If any of the participants inadvertently strays outside of their boundaries, then a polite word from either scout or scouter should suffice to fix the problem. This parallels with Youth Protection in that each scout is empowered to protect themselves from someone stepping over their personal boundaries. In units where adults are viewed as authoritarian, an adult over stepping his/her role is to be tolerated under the guise of a scout being respectful of adults. It seems to me that this is just the atmosphere that ASM P. D. Ofile was looking for when he joined this type of troop and he cant wait until the SM retires.

YIS

Scoutdad

Hi all!

Just finished second week of woodbadge and had no idea my topic was still under discussion. Yes this is a vacation for the SM. My perception is that for the scout back in Nov. -Dec. Philmont looked like a good idea, but I believe him when he said he gave a qualified yes depending on funds. One of the thing I came away from a woodbadge role playing exercise was when things are not going as you would expect with a youth, find out whats going on in their life before taking them to task. The time to address this was months ago when the first installment was due, or periodically when the crew would meet for planning and training Of course that assumes that this is a real crew with a youth leader and that they meet before leaving for Philmont. By the way, I asked my son and this scout if each would like to go if the other was going and the SM was not, and they both expressed interest in going. But the scout didnt sound all that excited, not enough for the kind of war that would start and I told him so. If he had been firmly interested in going the money problem could be solved. Thanks to you all for your advise.

YIS

Scoutdad

Thanks for your comments Barry. The one thorny issue left is the money. I took over being treasurer a few months back and began giving the kids complete reports showing all transactions. In the past all they saw was their balances. I think this scout thought that when he didnt come up with the $75 that he would be dropped from the crew. Unbeknownst to him money was being taken out of his account. His account is now $108 in the hole. I would like to clear this up rather than have this hanging over his head. What should be done? I tell these guys (my son, this scout and the other new scout) that a philmont trip could be an experience of a life time particularly with your best friends. But they are at that age where understand and expect to be involved in active planning and leadership (ownership) of such a trip, but to go with a self-center controlling adult would be a waste of a couple of hard earned summers work.

YIS

Scoutdad

I think this scout stuff is pretty cool too!

Before we trash this scout lets know a little more about him. The scout in question is an extroverted kid with a big heart. Real good kid. The divorce hit him hard, didnt see it coming or at least acknowledge it. Being extroverted he craves being around other people and tries to please adults. His adult brother went on the last trek to philmont and I do believe he was interested in going in the beginning. The hard reality is that his parents will not help fund this trip. Years ago mom and dad had been heavily involved in troop. Mom even lead a white water trip to Colorado. Troop picture from that era shows dad with a beaming grin. I havent seen him smile in years. Neither of them participates in any way now, many times they dont show up for COH. So sad, something just died there. SM had been giving him a lot of attention and had been grooming him to be SPL. I dont think the kid wanted to disappoint the SM, but he couldnt just tell him. Now the SM is very angry with him. On the last campout he screamed at him and called him stupid for trying to start a damp wood campfire with charcoal lighter fluid. (note- I made sure they had a charcoal chimney for the campout, an adult brought the lighter fluid) I try to lookout for this kid but the SM is becoming borderline abusive to him.

YIS

scoutdad

Eagledad-

Sorry for sounding a little legalistic with my plan, but problems arise out of poorly communicated expectations. For now with this adult leadership, clearly spelling out expectations would be helpful. As for the fund rasing, that is an important part of the trip and as I have outlined might be a good growing experience for the scouts in planning and saving.

This is not the only scout to drop out. Another scout droped in Jan or Feb after dad paid the $75 in Dec. My son recruited his best friend into scouts in Jan. (he's 14 or 15) and the SM hit him up to go right away. He said yes but parents said no way. Some how this isn't getting through to the SM because he thinks this kid still is obigated too. My son was interested in being added on to the crew in Aug, but the SM wants to do a really difficult trek. My son has never backpacked and since his best friends have dropped out of the trek he lost interest. So all three of them are being scapgoated over this.

Yis

Scoutdad

"To blame a boy for an adult not being able to participate in a scout event seems sort of backwards doesn't it? I mean who is here for whom?"

But this is the SM's vaction we are talking about here. With the SM and another adult going who neither have a son going, the crew needs boys without with an attached adult.

Just to be clear, I agree whole heartedly with you BW. What I need is a clear defense for a course of action. I believe that without any indication from the kid's parents in support of participation that there was no "contract". The least I would expect to prove support would have been a check from them for $75 marked "philmont trip". There being none, there was no agreement and hense the initial $75 and the next $120 taken from his account without his expressed approval was improper and should be returned.

I would add that in the future we should have a Application/agreement prepared that spells out the trip, dates, cost,and payment schedule. Both the youth and parents would sign. On the back I would have a worksheet where each party would detail how they would help fund the trip. Troop- fundraisers that could be applied, Youth- jobs and other sources of income,and parents- how much support they would provide. In one form would be the agreement and the plan to make it happen. But that's for the next time, I still have this mess to deal with.

Thanks BW

YIS

Scoutdad

P.S. Will take 2nd weekend of Woodbadge this weekend. Love it! I'm a Bob White, and a good old one too!

Good day all!

I have a problem and I would appreciate some advice. We have a crew going to Philmont next year. One of the boys has dropped out. This may require an adult to drop out because there is now only 4 boys and 4 adults. The boy that dropped never paid any money but the troop forwarded payments based on his participation. SM (who is going) is really hot about this kid. In SM minute last night he referred to an untrustworthy scout causing an adult to not go to Philmont. Kid says he never was real interested in going, but he did say he would go if he could find the money(back in December 02). The initial payment (from the participants) of $75, which is considered the "hard yes"(yes Im going and heres my money to prove it) was taken out of his scout account in December of 02. The kid says his parents (divorced) cant afford to send him and his summer jobs fell though this year. To date $195 has been taken out of his account but it is over drawn by $108. Last month he received a detailed printout of all transaction on his account and this was the first he knew that money was being taken out for Philmont. At no point have the parents agreed to allow their son to go to philmont (In fact they may not even know anything about it).

The question one- is this kid liable for the lost funds due to his non-participation. Question two- if he is not liable does the troop (or crew) owe him back the funds already taken from his account.

YIS

Scoutdad

"Germans?"

"Don't stop him, he's on a roll!"

Whos with me! Lets go down to that middle school and show them what scouting is all about! Let s go AAAAAAAA! Whats wrong with you guys? Afraid? "but Bluto. theyll make fun of us in our scout uniforms" Guys when the going gets tough .The tough get going. Follow me! AAAAAAAAA! No! Blutos right, misguided but right. We cant let these boys get away. Oh sure, we could recruit them conventionally, but that would take years and cost billions of dollars. No what this requires is one single senseless act. As adults, well let the boys do fun stuff that they want to do.

YIS

Scoutdad

Thanks to all of you for your input, I knew I could count on you. Fat Old Guy, you have it nailed. The boys wont elect him to a leadership post because of his mom, so she decided to have take bulging for a POR. When they joined she signed up as an ASM but she never finished the training (no surprise!). In May she was after me to set up the swimming tests but it is a very busy time of the year for me, and with summer camp coming up, usually all of the swimming requirements are done there. She asked the SM if she could do it, provided there were 2 adults and a lifeguard. He agreed and the Troop guide (BSA Lifeguard) and my oldest (SPL) put it together.

Finally, Bob White, you provided the most sensitive response (I knew you would). The scout is really a good kid and is genuinely excited about scouting. You are right that she is spoiling this for the boy with out realizing it. The simplest approach is to have a calm discussion with her. The SMs preference for conflict is avoidance. It would also seem that any water activities like canoeing should be on hold for this boy until he masters his swimming.

Thanks to all

YIS

Scoutdad

Help!! Having read this forum for quit some time I hope you can give me some guidance.

We have a new scout (bridged in January) that mom has pushed hard to get first class by our June summer camp. To complete his second class swim requirements she arranged for our troop guide, who is a BSA lifeguard, to test her son and a few others a the local pool in early June. At the pool the guide had them do the second class swim test and the first class swimming requirements including 9c, which is now only part of the swimming merit badge. I had heard that none of the new scout had done very well but the one in question was particularly bad. At camp we are lined up to do swim test and new scouts mom tells the staff her son has passed the swim test before coming to camp ( our camp will allow this). The staff asks the SM and he says that is his understanding, so new scout gets blue without swimming. Next mom is telling the swimming merit badge councilors that her son has done all of the swimming parts i.e. inflating pants etc. The councilor buys that (time is short and a lot of scouts in class).

Heres the problem. Last night the troop guide, who is a friend of my oldest son, is over at my house and tells me the scout could not pass the swim test. He says he couldnt swim on his back, in fact the guide had to hold him up several times. I asked him why he passed him then. He said that at the next meeting the mom cornered him and badgered him into signing off. He thought the scout would fail the swim test at camp. This mother also asked him to sign off stuff for first class that she say he has done at home, but when the guide questions her son and he has not a clue, she gets in his face and tells him to just sign it.

What do we do? He has received his second and first class ranks already, but the swimming merit badge is due to be given at the next COH in one week. Having boys sign off on requirements is fairly new in our troop and its been a battle to get here and I dont want to loose it over what in my opinion is a case of an adult abusing the system. Thanks.

YIS

Scoutdad

so this guy shows up to apply for the job of bellringer. The caretaker asks him if he has any experience and he says no. Alright, let me show you where the bell is and how to ring it. The caretaker opens the door to the tower and together the start to climb the long way up to the tower. About half way up the caretaker turns to the young man and asks "did you latch the door?". answer- No. down they go and latch the door. Once more they climb the stair to the top of the tower. When they reach the top the the caretaker says " all you have to do is pull real hard on this rope" The caretaker demonstrats this and the bell move one way with a mighty gong and then the other way striking the young man in the face with an other gong way who then falls all the way to the ground. The care taker then goes back down the lon flight of stairs to find a small crowd around the dead young man. One of the crowd asks who the young man was. The care taker bends over and looks carefully and then replys " I don't know but his face shure rings a bell"

NEXT NIGHTS CAMPFIRE

Young man shows up at the church and says he is the brother of the young man killed and asks how it happened. The care taker takes him up the tower just like before, door and all, get to the top and says " I was just showing hi how the bell works like this -pulls the rope- the bell move one way with a mighty gong and then the other way striking the brothers face with a mighty gong and the brother falls to his death also. The care taker then goes back down the lon flight of stairs to find a small crowd around the dead young man. One of the crowd asks who the young man was. The care taker bends over and looks carefully and then replys " I don't know but he's a dead ringer for his brother.

Scoutdad

Usually here beside the trail watching the procession.

Great ideas! I've been teaching junior leadership for our troop and would also like to "spice it up". I like Eagle74's idea of using videos.

OGE:

Where do you find the 11 leadership skills in the Scoutmasters junior leadership training kit? I understand the 11 skills are or have been a part of Woodbadge. I think I own every resource our scout shop sells and I haven't found this one. Is there a new leadership traing kit to go with the new PL and SPL handbooks? Shouldn't there be a kit that talks about the four leadership styles: Telling, Coaching, Persuading, and Delegating?

YIS

Scoutdad

I was just thumbing through a copy of "Norman Rockwells World of Scouting" that a friend had given me. On page 33 there is a picture of Ernest Thompson Seton with the caption "Ernest Thompson Seton, the first Chief Scout of the Boy Scouts of America, was six feet tall, spare, sinewy, and athletic, with a shock of unruly hair and a bushy mustache." The picture shows him with flowing collar length hair. When hair styles changed to shorter hair were the life scouts required to grow their hair out to advance? Food for thought.

Scoutdad

Bob you hit the nail on the head! When I was Cubmaster we has a Webelos den with a kid who the other scouts identified with as the "leader." His mom was the WDL and he was a bit of a moma's boy. He had the same attitude as CubsRgr8's. By the time for cross over he had convinced all but one of the 9 boys to shun Boy Scouts. BTW the one who crossed joined in the fall of 5th grade.

What to do. If these boys are group leaders they need to be turned around. Personal attention from the Den Chief (if you have one) would help. If not, and you are attending activities with a troop, then having some scouts from the troop single them out for some unique responsiblities that involves some quality time with a few Boy Scouts might excite them into the program. They could change from leading boy away from scouts into leading boys towards scouts.

Good luck

Scoutdad

Every year I help with the Pack's fall sign-up and we are always getting 2 or 3 5th graders interested in Boy Scouts. It's a real question of what to do with them. More often than not the WDL is uninterested because they are finishing up their two year program that fall. If you tell the kids and parents to wait until next summer you loose them. I've toyed with the idea of forming a den and registering them with the Pack but rather than working on all of the cub/webelos advancement, instead prepare them for Boy Scouts. Teach the Readyman and outdoorsman skills and introduce them to the Oath and Law. Then bring them into the troop with the rest of the 5th graders from the Pack.

BSA has a good program for recruiting cub scouts. We can get large numbers out for schoolnite, but the troops generally only get the boys that bridge from the Pack. I wish we had a better way to reach boys who for whatever reason, were not interested in cub scouts.

Scoutdad