Rooster7

Try contacting any number of veterans' organizations, such as VFW or the American Legion. These groups wear garrison hats all the time. You may not be able to find a supplier with that has them in green, but I'm sure there are suppliers out there.

In regard to such topics, I am no more an expert than anyone else. I know a multitude of folks with many, many years of experience post to these web pages. Personally, I have about 15 years experience with BSA. I've served as an Assistant Den Leader, Den Leader, Webelos Leader, Assistant Cubmaster, Cubmaster, and ASM. Next year will be my 10th year in a BSA Summer camp.

My point...I have a strong opinion about this topic, based on a lot of experience. However, others probably differ with me and have just as much or more experience.

Okay...Here's my view. This is a three-prong problem.

Prong Number ONE - Troop discipline starts with the SM and his corps. They set the tone for the SPL. The SPL needs to know that HE is the man in charge of the boys. He not only needs to know it, he needs to accept it and not run from it. If he neglects his post, the whole thing falls apart. It is the SM's responsibility (and his corps) to instill this point in the SPL and ensure that he does NOT neglect his post. If the SPL refuses to accept the responsibility, he has no business being in the position. The SM should seek a replacement.

Likewise, it is the SPL's job to ensure all Patrol Leaders take their jobs seriously and the PL's job to ensure their assistants are on board. Again, if someone is not taking the job seriously, the SPL should seek a replacement.

Prong Number TWO - The SM, his Corps, and the PLC need to seek ways to educate and discipline the Troop. If there is no consequence for bad behavior, the behavior will continue. This is where I see Troops failing. They talk the talk, but rarely walk it. Most notably, they fail to provide a real punishment...And if they do, they fail to follow-up to see if the boy did what he was suppose to. Or, if they follow-up, they fail to provide a punishment for the boy who fails to follow through. In short, few boys, and probably almost just as many men (SM's and ASM's), want to be the "bad" guy. To these folks I say, "Sorry, if you want to be in charge, and run a Troop properly, then sometimes you have to be unpopular." Unfortunately, I am finding this problem to be way too common.

Prong Number THREE - All boys and their leaders need to understand that there is a chain of command. If you have a boy who is not behaving, the PL or APL should be handling it. If the PL or APL is not being respected, then they should seek assistance from the ASPL or SPL. Finally, if the ASPL or SPL is not being respected, the SM should become involved. Should it get this far, there should be serve consequences for the offender.

Just my thoughts...

I'm NOT defending Falwell's comments. I don't even know what he said except what was alluded to in the previous posts. I will say this though...Many Christians believe God has blessed and protected America as result of our country's devotion to God and His word. Many also believe that God may lift his protection (or already has) if our country continues down its current path. There is biblical precedence for these beliefs. This does not nullify what the terrorists have done. It doesn't remove guilt from them. Nor does it mean anyone deserved to die at their hands.

In my Troop, most boys complain that they are too short...This attribute alone makes them very unpopular. I'd never owed a pair...Whatelse is wrong with them? Regardless, based on what I've heard from the boys, I believe you are correct. BSA stands to gain a lot income if they redesign their shorts.

I see your point, but I'm uncomfortable using their language. If you use their words, then you have to defend the BSA position on their terms. How would you respond if they asked, "How does discriminating against gays encourage diversity?" I don't claim BSA to be diverse in the same way as they do. Also, knowing the media to be bias (and in some cases, just plain ignorant), they would show those signs and tell the viewers that we were pro-gay Scouts and Scouters. I agree with your intent (and even your logic). I'm just not sure it would play out like one would hope.

Agreed. Just tired and frustrated...

Eisely,

I hear ya...But I prefer not to wear their clothing. We should be more forthright and state it like is...as Mike Long alluded to in his last post. We don't have to hide our true beliefs to gain support (which is exactly what they've been doing for years). Lets not become like them, in an attempt to defeat them. The "undecided" are usually confused and easily deceived. They will change their minds from one day to the next depending on what the media tells them. I'm convinced that the key to a successful counter protest is to awaken dormant believers. But alas, perhaps I just want to believe we already out number them.

I know what Bob Russell means when he says, "Celebrate Diversity of Ideas"...Unfortunately, the "other side" will claim that it's really their slogan.

OldGreyEagle, I appreciate your Scouting wisdom, and truly don't want to offend you, but I feel it is a sad commentary when we have to re-examine and clarify the phrase "traditional values" in this country.

It is a sad commentary. Sadder still is the number of folks who are willing to defend it and the appointee.

How about..."Scouting for Traditional Values"?

Don't get requirement #8b confused with #5. A Troop mobilization plan is simply a plan for advising the boys of a situation (an emergency of some kind) and to coordinate a meeting place/time for some type of response.

The short answer is yes...It can be as simple as having everyone advised via a telephone tree and meeting in town at some designated point. The Emergency Preparedness merit badge book talks about such a phone tree. There is a second means, which is utilized when the phone lines are down. It requires the boys to contact one another in person via proximity. You can use either method to fulfill the requirement.

The actual response is requirement #5 (either a real emergency service project or a practice drill).

Mr. Eisely,

There is one other organization under attack for its stance on homosexuality aside from BSA and organized religion (actually any religion that doesn't endorse homosexuality). It's called the U.S. military. Fortunately, they have stuck their guns as well. Without going into too much depth, because I know not everyone cares for this discussion (nor do I have the energy this week to participate myself), but I'm convinced the effort to "change the way America looks" goes beyond the homosexual community. Many - gays, atheists, feminists, even PETA, hate BSA. We don't believe in their agenda, so we must be altered to their liking, or be eliminated. If you believe BSA is a worthwhile organization for your sons (or anyone's son for that matter), we need to stand up and shout these people down.

As Redskin RB John Riggins once said to one of our Supreme Court Justices (Sandra Day O'Connor) at a formal dinner party - "Loosen Up Sandy Baby!" He later fell asleep under the dining room table. Lets hope he wasn't a Boy Scout.

Yes, we should feel free to blow off a little steam once in a while with a little humor. Otherwise, the pressure-cooker tends to explode. Although, I think Mr. Riggins went a little too far.

Here are a few other associations that may get you labeled as a bigot, stupid, or something worse:

NRA member

Republican

Home schooling

Hunter

Pro-Life

Rush Limbaugh listener

Of course, unless you're a member of every ultra-liberal organization imaginable, there is nothing lower than a white male.

"Don't Ask-Don't tell". What's the point?!

I disagree. The behavior is wrong. It is irrelevant whether or not a Scout (or Scouter) keeps it a secret. The behavior is still immoral. An organization's membership standards should NOT be based on how easily it can determine the "status" of potential members. If this was so, BSA would not have any standards at all. Does BSA ask potential leaders and scouts if they peep into their neighbor's windows at night? Obviously, the answer is NO. BSA has a clear set of standards. "Not asking" does not make the behavior acceptable! Anyone claiming otherwise is being disingenuous.

"Don't ask-Don't tell" dances around the issue. If you don't like the policy (no homosexual leaders or Scouts) then say so, but don't try to tell me that the policy never really existed. Let's be men, not lawyers. Ultimately the lawyers from both sides will fight this out in court again. However, I refuse to debate this issue by parsing words. We all know full well what was meant by this policy. Those pretending otherwise are simply doing their best to circumvent truth.

"Currently in America the Boy Scout's of America are not being culturally driven," he charged.

This is a bad thing?! More than most churches, BSA has stayed true to its original values. This fact makes me proud to be a member of BSA...It also makes me very sad for so many churches.

Greg H,

I agree with you whole heartily. Think about the implications of such a policy. In essence, they are say this:

We believe homosexuality is wrong. However, if you don't tell anyone, we're willing to look the other way. Feel free to take our children out in the woods and spend the night.

WHAT?! If I believe the behavior is wrong, I'm not going to let that individual lead my child. It's an insane policy. Obviously, the leaders in the Minutemen Council don't believe in National's policy and are trying to circumvent it. I hope National has a STRONG rebuke for the Minutemen Council and particularly for it's leaders.

I disagree. National doesn't have to buckle in, nor do I feel they will. They've been standing on principle for years...If/When they do surrender to this kind of pressure, they'll no longer be the organization they claim to be. I, for one, would view this as a very sad day. I hope and pray it never happens.

"There are more than physical differences between men and women. Eons of development have created physical differences, different viewpoints and approaches to problems...so what."

Yarrow, I'm assuming that this comment is in response to my earlier post - "Despite the hype of recent years, I believe that there are differences between the sexes beyond our bodies."

If so, I'd like to respond. My statement was not meant to insinuate that women/girls were in any way less capable or less significant than men/boys. My comment was intended to point out that each sex has differences that go beyond their bodies. Consequently, it is perfectly legitiment for a program such as BSA to be designed and implemented for a specific gender. In fact, it helps develop those differences so that as adults we can better complement one another. In this case, I see the Boys Scouts of America serving that role very well. I wouldn't want to see it changed simply to satisfy someone's idea of political correctness.

For future reference, co-ed programs are great. There are many excellent programs. However, that does not mean we should make every program co-ed. Single sex programs can and have served noble purposes as well (i.e., BSA).

"As matter of practical application, our agency is not set up to deal with gay children," said Scout Executive Jeffrie Herrmann. "

To me, this is an insane comment for any BSA official to make. Of course we're not set up to deal with them. If we don't believe the behavior is normal or natural, why should we have programs set up to deal with it? If BSA ever does "deal with it", it should be in stark contrast to the programs inferred in this article.

If a boy comes to me and indicates that he believes he is a homosexual, I will do my best to convince him not to pursue it. I would find the healthiest and most loving way to convince him that he is confused.

Legally, this may not be the way to go. Certainly, the parents should play a big part in what happens when a boy comes forward with such a declaration. In fact, they should be in full control of the situation (above any group or government agency). I would advise them as soon as I became aware of the boy's situation. Still, my heart would not allow me to let that child go without trying to convince him that he was confused about his "orientation".

I would never send him to a group, which condones homosexuality. I would send him to an organization that recognizes the behavior as abnormal. I would send him to a group that would deal with him in a sensitive manner, but one that would not re-enforce his confusion.

I think the neighborly thing to do is to invite PETA over and to discuss our differences over a fish fry.

By the way, perhaps we should make MODEST the 13th point of the Scout Law. I say this, because it appears that these special interest groups (PETA, Gays, etc.) are appealing to these boys vanity by making them the center of attention and a national spokesman for their cause. Perhaps, we should try to teach our boys a little more about the admirable quality of being humble and the evils of self-adoration. I know that sounds a little harsh, but judging by news-of-the-day, it does appear to be in style.

I hope you're wrong. Despite the hype of recent years, I believe that there are differences between the sexes beyond our bodies. BSA is a great program, which gives boys the opportunity to mature into young men. It was designed with boys in mind. I'm certain that others will declare me to be a male chauvinist or something worse, but I'm happy the program is exclusive to boys and I hope it remains so.

Mr. Eisely;

Glad you asked. This is one of my favorite subjects.

Before I make some recommendations, let me take issue with one point you made - "Furthermore, although boy scouts are as confused and uncertain in their beliefs as other adolescents, showing any respect for religion at all is increasingly uncool." I don't believe this to be correct. At least, judging from my experiences with Scouts, I find this to be untrue.

First, find a boy in your Troop who does take his faith very seriously. Encourage him to think about becoming the Chaplains Aid. If you already have one, inquire as to what is his motivation. My point is thisIf you don't a Chaplains Aid who takes his responsibility seriously, it will be very difficult to challenge others to take their faith seriously.

Make it a habit to end all Troop meetings and other gatherings (i.e. campouts, etc.) with a prayer. Encourage others (not just the Chaplains Aid) to volunteer to say a prayer. You'd be surprisedsome boys actually feel led to say a word or two.

Be reverent yourself. Be an example. Insist on hats off for prayers (even Scout hats). On occasion, use the Scoutmaster minute to relay inspirational stories of faith. There are some really great ones out there (true stories) which makes it very difficult to deny God's existence.

If/When the Troop has occasion to be joyous or sad, recognize the need to praise or seek God. If the Troop was able to raise a tremendous amount of money, then don't forget to thank God. If someone is sick (or worse, someone dies), take a moment to ask for God's help (healing, strength for the family, etc.).

Use nature as an example of God's work. Demonstrate to them the complexity of the world around us and ask them if they think it was random or by design. When one realizes how all of nature ties into one another, very often it becomes much easier to recognize that there must be a creator. This may help inspire them to be reverent.

Recognize that there is good and evil in the world. There are many examples in history. Once one realizes that evil is more than just a bad event caused by "misguided" individualsOnce one realizes that good is more than bravery or "doing the right thing", it becomes impossible to deny the existence of God. To understand the "kind of good" that I referencing, read the following story (by the way, I found it on the US Scouting Service Project web page as a recommended Scoutmaster minute - http://www.usscouts.org/):

"Living What You Believe"

During World War II there was a young man from Virginia named Desmond Doss who was a member of the Seventh Day Adventist Church and he firmly believed that it was wrong to kill another human. He wanted to serve his country and he had no problem dying for his country but he would not carry a gun or take a life even to save his own. When Desmond Doss left for boot camp his wife gave him a small bible to carry with him. As his first day in boot camp was ending he did what he always did which was to get down on his knees and pray at his bedside. The other recruits upon seeing this greeted him with a flurry of name-calling and obscenities and threw boots at him in ridicule. His commanding officers were worried that in the heat of battle American lives might be lost because of his unwillingness to use a gun. They made Doss a medic. About nine months later they were in the pacific and had climbed up a steep cliff onto a plateau when the Japanese opened fire upon them. Dozens of men were killed and wounded. The shooting was so intense that the Americans had to pull back leaving the dead and wounded behind. Everyone that could escape over the cliff did, except for one lone medic named Desmond Doss. Under constant enemy fire Doss treated the wounded and made a stretcher and tied ropes to it and one by one lowered the wounded over the side of the cliff to safety. Doss worked throughout the afternoon and evening treating and lowering the injured soldiers. When Doss finally came over the side of the cliff he had single handedly saved seventy men. Men, who some months earlier had ridiculed him and thrown boots at him as he prayed, now owed their lives to him. Over the next several days, Desmond Doss risked his life again and again to save lives. Some time later Doss was treating the wounded on a beach when shrapnel struck him in his legs. He was being carried to safety when he ordered the men carrying him to put him down and place another man on the stretcher who was in worse condition. While Doss lay on the ground waiting for another stretcher a sniper shot him, shattering his arm. Rather than risk someone else's safety to help him he tied his shattered arm to a gunstock and crawled 300 yards over rough terrain to an aid station. After he was in a hospital he discovered that he had lost the bible his wife had given him, somewhere on the battlefield. He sent back word to his fellow soldiers that if they found it to please send it to him. Upon hearing of his lost bible his entire battalion got on their hands and knees and sifted their fingers through sand, mud and water until one of them finally found it. They dried and cleaned it as best they could and sent it to him. Desmond Doss spent five full years in hospitals recovering from the injuries he received in the war. He was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, the nations highest military award, for his heroism on the battlefield. The Medal of Honor was presented to Desmond Doss by U.S President Harry Truman who said during the ceremony "I would rather have that medal than be President". A monument was later erected on the plateau where he saved seventy men from death to further honor him. He stayed true to his faith and never carried a gun or took a life. As of the writing of this story Desmond Doss is still alive and remains a living legend of W.W.II.

I hope that each of you has a belief in God and that each of you is as strong in your faith as Desmond Doss was in his. Many people say what they believe but few live what they believe. Goodnight gentlemen!

By the way, on a personal note, I feel most prayers are acceptable as long as the Scout or Scouter shows reverence; the prayer is appropriate, done solemnly, and not offensive. I do not believe a Scout has to deny his faith, in order for others to recognize their own. In other words, I see nothing wrong with a Christian ending his prayer by saying, "In your son's name, Jesus Christ". Nor do I see anything wrong with a Jew ending his prayer by saying, "Shalom", and so on. Every boy should be given some latitude to be faithful to his faith.

Just some thoughts...I couldn't help myself. I'm passionate about many things, but your thread hit on two of my favorites - God and Scouts.

Thanks.

The title of this article alone should tell you something about how the Gay community thinks - "Jesse Prefers Straight Boys". I ask...Does anyone really believe that this represents a minority within the Gay community? Not from anything I have read. They're militant. They're determined to make everyone "see the light". In the process, they don't care about anyone else, especially those people with conservative beliefs. If you don't agree with them, you're labeled as stupid or evil or both. BSA, and everyone else that believes their behavior is wrong, needs to stand together.

Mr. Eisely,

In regard to your question - "Do any of the data you cite go into the question of pedophilia committed by 'avowed' homosexuals as distinct from homosexuals still in the closet at the time that the abuse occurred?"

I cannot provide an answer. Personally, I'm convinced that all homosexuals are a potential threat, and in particular a threat to our children. If you probe the web pages on the www, and investigate the various groups that support the Gay agenda, I think you would agree.

In regard to the proposal that the issue should be left up to local councils or Troops, I disagree. BSA has been around for a very long time - 90 plus years. The organization should remain faithful to their founding principles - nationally. Furthermore, if various councils or Troops can set their own policies, what happens when a BSA event brings those groups together (i.e., jamboree, camporee, etc.)?

Thanks.