Rooster7

I B a Scout,

Actually I should apologize for not pointing you there in the first place. But as you noticed, I and many others, do have strong opinions. I guess I got carried away. Anyway, good to hear a new voice (even if we disagree).

It's an issue of morality. If I was a nice guy in every visible way, but it was common knowledge that I collected kiddy-porn, would my membership in BSA be acceptable? Of course, it would not be acceptable. The issue is not how "nice" I appear, or whether or not I push my ideas onto the others. The issue is the behavior. BSA and most of its adult leaders (at least I hope and believe this to be true), believe that homosexuality is wrong. Someone who practices this behavior and refuses to recognize it as such is not considered to be a good example, either as a Scout or a Scouter.

On the back of the sash, additional merit badges may be sewn and temporary insignia may be sewn. "Temporary insignia" is defined by the BSA as special insignia for participating in unit, District, Council or national events or programs.

This can be found at http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/boyscout.htm

The back of the slash is acceptable for BSA event patches. I will try to back this up with a reference...I just can't recall where I saw it. However, I am confident that eisely is correct.

Well, fortunately, most of us feel it is a big deal. Just like having sex before marriage is a big deal. Many of us believe that God gave us precepts to live by...And some us, even try to live by them. I B a Scouter.

I hear ya. I know that this particular topic is a pet peeve for many Scouters. However, I have to say this. While it may be the exception, I have met a few 13 and 14 year old Eagle Scouts that did the badge no shame. I understand why many Scouters hate to see it. And usually, I can't defend the kids they use as examples. Nevertheless, there are some good ones out there.

It's not the SM's decision. It's the merit badge counselor's dilemma. Frankly, I don't see any SM or merit badge counselor signing it off (counting a 20 miler as 10 and 20 mile hikes). Regardless, this is not a decision which a Troop or SM needs to be (or should be) debating. In the end, it will be up to the individual merit badge counselor (assuming there is no clear direction from BSA). Personally, I think it is pretty clearthey should be two separate hikes. My argument...Use common sense (although that might ruffle a feather or two).

Let us know the outcome...I'm curious to see how your folks react (i.e., committee, parents, boys in the Troop). I shouldn't stereotype (based on my personal experiences), but this is my prediction:

1) Boys will accept and understand - with possible exception to the newly elected SPL.

2) Most parents will understand, but some will make noise...more so than any Scout.

3) Committee will debate it for hours, but eventually will agree in majority with the decision.

My said experiences do not relate to your particular problem, but I think have a good idea as to how folks will react. Whether the committee agrees with you or not, stand firm. You have principle and BSA policy on your side. I probably sound a little bitter...I'm not. I just have a hard time listening to a lot of committee conversations. It only takes one person to stir the pot, and there always seems to be at least one willing person with spoon in hand.

Oh I forgot something...

I feel strongly about this. Although I usually agree with eisely, I would not consult the Troop Committee. Here's why -

1) First and foremost, I think you would be opening a huge can of worms. Our committee is large (10 plus parents). The debate would go on forever, and in the end; there would be hard feelings. At least, that's how it would happen in our committee. It could get real messy.

2) As Scoutmaster, it's your job to set the moral tone in the Troop. If you believe the process was corrupted, it's within your right to overturn the election. If you call to talk to the committee, I say...Tell them what you're going to do (don't ask or consult).

3) This is what leaders do. They make hard decisions. You may want to explain that to your Troop. That the decision was difficult, but you felt this was the right thing to do.

First --- It's a consensus, Nullify the SPL vote.

Second --- I agree with Mike Long. Nullify all elections. The election of the SPL usual affects other positions.

Third --- I agree with yarrow. Or at least, I might agree with him. It depends. You know this kid better than us. If you truly believe he knowingly attempted to circumvent the process, then I would disqualify him. If you have doubts, then I would provide the lecture, but still allow him to run for the position.

Forth --- I'm not certain about the ASM's statement. I'm not sure how it came out...Perhaps he didn't fully think about the consequences and was trying to laugh it off..."boys will boys" kinda thing. Here again, you know this guy better than us. If you truly believe he's condoning dishonesty, than he probably should be removed. However, sometimes people say things without really thinking...Maybe this was the case.

Have you considered attending a committee meeting and recommending a change in policy? Maybe our Troop has been blessed, but we allow a single Scout to pursue a badge and it hasn't hurt us. Your Troop's policy doesn't seem fair. Some boys (particularly in a small Troop) will not always find a boy to share a particular interest. Why penalize a kid for being unique? He may even be gifted...but yet, due to a Troop policy he cannot pursue it? I realize I'm preaching to the choir, but you might consider fighting this one.

If I understand correctly, your Troop does not allow a boy to pursue a MB unless there is at least one other boy in the Troop interested in the same badge. Maybe I'm missing something, but that sounds crazy. Any Scout should be able to pursue any badge he wants. Unless he's pursuing too many badges at the same time, or a particular badge isn't age appropriate, I don't understand why a Troop would want to restrict interest in a merit badge.

I'll take shot at this (but I'm not an expert on the subject)...

To my knowledge, as a Scout (under 18), you can wear your Eagle medal anytime you're in a Class A uniform. I'm surprised that anyone would tell you differently, but then again, I may be out of the loop on this...I can't imagine why though.

I do know this. Once you become a Scouter (registered leader over 18), you can no longer wear the badge, only the square knot. I'm not sure about the medal...

Anyone want to chime in on this one? I'm kinda curious myself.

jmcquillan said "Allowing a Scout to maintain a position, and yet not show up for it and never do the job, and only tell him he's got a problem just before the Board of Review is doing the Scout, and the troop, no favors."

I agree with this statement strongly. In fact, the site that he refers to (http://www.usscouts.org/), has debated this same issue. In that thread, it was stated by more than one person that if the Troop does not remove the Scout from his position (for poor performance and/or attendance), that they have no case. In other words, any time spent in the position, poor performance or not, should count (including for rank advancement). They based this argument on the fact that National has always sided with the Scout when this issue comes up (i.e. the Scout appeals to BSA). Also, as jmcquillan pointed out, it's not fair to the Scout to advise him at the Board of Review. His notice concerning his performance should come long before that time.

Mike,

I with you...Your accessment seems reasonable. Although, there's probably a fair amount of grey area here. A disability for one person may not be so for another... To some extent, it may be how well a person is able to adapt to their circumstances.

Mike, I agree with you. But, I have to go a little further (and risk Paul's wrath, and possibly some others). I have been reading these posts carefully. My heart goes out to everyone who had to endure the pains and trials associated with the various disabilities described in this thread. My family has really been blessed. No one in my immediate or extended family has ever suffered a loss such as a hand or another limb. No one has suffered from an injury or disease that impaired their ability to walk. None of my sons have the type of illness that OldGreyEagle's son is enduring. For this I am so ever thankful to God.

However, all of my sons' have had asthma (mostly mild). At least one of my sons has ADD. ADD is a subject, which we could probably discuss for quite sometime. Personally, I'd bet my bottom dollar that I have this disorder. It's not that I don't sympathize with those who have this problem, but I wouldn't put ADD or asthma in the same category as the other disabilities. For my son or I to say, "I am disabled", while standing next someone in a wheelchair is ludicrous.

As for ADD, when I grew up in the sixties, we didn't get Ritalinusually a scolding and/or a slap on the back of head did the trick. We weren't able to focus any better, but we were usually able to behave long enough to keep the teacher sane. Now, I realize that last statement probably didn't go over well, but it's the way it was. Of course, this "treatment" didn't fix anyone's problem, but I have to wonderIs Ritalin fixing the problem? I find it difficult to believe that these kids are going to outgrow the need for the drug as adults. As a child, I had very strong problems maintaining my focus. To a much lesser degree, I still do. As I grew older, and recognized my problem, I found ways to compensate for it. If children deal with the disorder through the use of drugs, I fear that they won't develop methods and means of their own. In other words, they'll be dependent upon the drug to keep their focus. I have to believe that Ritalin is a short-term fix, not a long-term solution. At the very least, I'm convinced that it is an overly prescribed drug.

OldGreyEagle, your son's story really touched me. His courage is an inspiration and you must be very proud. It's kids like that, that give Scouting a good name. I think of his suffering and struggle, and I am overwhelmed. The presenter of his Eagle badge should be an extremely humble man. Your son is in my prayers.

Okay...Now that I've been told that there are no limits on what you can do at an Eagle Court of Honor, I'm looking for ideas. The

location has already been decided upon (field behind our house), but we need ideas to make it unique and powerful. My sons and I have

several ideas, but they (as would I) want to create the "Coolest Eagle Court of Honor Known to Man". Please post some ideas. What is

the coolest/neatest/most powerful Eagle Court of Honor that you've witnessed? Thanks. Looking forward to seeing some of your

ideas/stories.

Does BSA require certain oaths, pledges, or any other element to be present in an Eagle Court of Honor? So far, I cannot find anything official that states this to be true. Also, if a pledge or oath is administered, does BSA require someone specific to administer it?

OldGreyEagle,

Once again, I have fallen victim to some of my bad habits. My response is provoked by a number of incidents over the years that have left a bad taste in my mouth. In short, I hope Mike and you will forgive me...Obviously, from your post, you are aware of Baden Powell's background and his motivation for starting the Scouting movement. I'm very passionate about our country's history, the Scouting movement, and many other organizations, events, and traditions that have formed our heritage. In my experience in Scouting (and elsewhere), I have found many folks re-creating history to fit their political agendas. I'm not striving to be a self-appointed watchdog. However, as a result of my passion, very often I am compelled to respond...and sometimes, I'm the one guilty of a "knee jerk" response.

Regardless, we're in agreement. BSA is not a military group. Our Arm Forces should be respected and honor. Scouting does have a military heritage. And I might add, it's a heritage we should celebrate.

Sorry about the stereotype...I agree, overly concerned dads are not a rare species, but thanks for getting my point. Most notably, I too am concerned about how prepared our youth will be if forced to serve our country in this capacity.

If you're going to compare every discussion we have on this board to September 11 and its future impact on our children, we might as well stop posting now! Because in this light, nothing we can possibly say about Scouting can have much significance.

That being said, I feel this issue does have merit. Moreover, because some many folks try to play down this part of Scouting's history, to the point of revisionism, it is important the truth be told. Those who continue this "myth" do our military an injustice. I realize that Mike Long did not intend to send this message (I don't want to get him riled again)...But there is a contingent of folks in Scouting who believe the military is a bad influence on Scouts. I very much resent this thinking and inferences made to that affect.

Finally, since you brought up September 11, I feel this is a most appropriate conversation (at least as compared to others on this board). It is the MILITARY who makes the greatest sacrifices to ensure our freedom and safety. This will not change in the "new war". Shame on us or anybody else who do not pay them the proper respect. So yes, I chose to "quibble".

Mike,

I could have been subtler. I meant no offense to you.

However, I do take issue with some of your statements. You said, "Baden Powell created scouting because boys were studying his military training manual for Scouts (recon). He was horrified at the thought of children studying to be warriors. All differences between Scouting and military service are intentional. It has always been this way and should remain this way."

This simply is NOT true.

Over the years, inspired by overly concerned mothers, political correctness, or other influences, a large number of folks including many Scouters, have revised history. I have not found any quotes from Baden Powell that support the claim that he wanted the Scouting program to distance itself from the military. Boys studying his military training manual did not horrify him. He was disturbed by how unprepared his young soldiers were in his regiment. He rewrote his own military manual, making it more appealing to boys, so they would read it and be prepared as men. He wanted to increase interest in the Boys Brigade. He intentionally designed the Scouting program to prepare boys for future service to their country. This was not limited to the military, but given Baden Powell's background and his own words describing the program, it certainly was prominently included. In fact, he speaks fondly of how British scouts offered their assistance in The Great War. This included guarding communication networks and coast guard stations. Do you really think he disliked the idea of Scouting being associated with the military? Some people may still want to argue this issue, but judging by the following article, Baden Powell's views of the military and why Scouts was created, is pretty clear.

I'm not suggesting radical changes to the current program. BSA has a great program. But seriously, I don't want anyone else to tell me that Baden Powell had problems with the Scouts being linked (at least in spirit) with the military. It's possible that as he grew older, he changed his mind. Nevertheless, the roots of the program are pretty obviousAnd PROUD roots they are.

"BE PREPARED" - An Interview with Baden-Powell by the "Listener" Magazine in 1937.

(This is not the full article. If you want to read it all, go to http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-listener.htm).

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Also, from experience of the Boys' Brigade, I realised that men could be got voluntarily to sacrifice time and energy to training boys. Then my idea that Scouting could be educative was strengthened also, through the following incident. General Lord Allen by was riding to his house after a field day when his little son shouted to him, "Father, I have shot you, you are not half a Scout. A Scout looks upward as well as around him - you never saw me." There was the boy, sitting up in a tree overhead; but far above him, near the top of the tree, was his new governess. " What on earth are you doing up there?" cried the General. "Oh, I am had been trained at Miss Charlotte Mason's Collage for Teachers, and they had been using my book, Aids to Scouting, written for soldiers, as a textbook in the art of educating children.

Then in 1907 I, as a General, was inspecting 7,000 of the Boys' Brigade at Glasgow on its twentieth anniversary, and the founder, Sir William Smith, was very pleased because the total strength of his movement was 54,000. I agreed that it was a big number but added that if the training really appealed to boys there ought to be ten times that number. "How would you make it appeal?" he asked. "Well, look at the young fellows in the Cavalry, how they enjoy the game of Scouting, which makes them into real men and good soldiers." "Could you re-write 'Aids to Scouting'," he wondered, "so that it would appeal to boys instead of to soldiers and make them into real men and good citizens?" So I did that.

But before writing the book I planned out the idea and then tested it. I got together some twenty boys of all sorts, some from Eton and Harrow, some from the East End of London, some country lads and some shop-lads, and I mixed them up like plums in a pudding to live together in camp. I wanted to see how far the idea would interest the different kinds of lads.

I told a friend what I was doing, and said that I wanted a quiet place, out of Press reporters and inquisitive people, where I could try the experiment; she offered me the use of her property - Brownsea Island in Dorsetshire. And there we set up camp for a fortnight. I had the late Major Maclaren and the present Sir Percy Everett to help me and we taught the boys camping, cooking, observation, deduction, woodcraft, chivalry, boatmanship, lifesaving, health, patriotism, and such things.

The results upon the boys in that short space of time taught me the possibilities which Scout training held for boys. So I at once set to work and wrote the handbook, Scouting for Boys, intending it to be useful to the existing boys' organisations such as Boys' Brigade, the Church Lads' Brigade, the Y.M.C.A., and others.

The book came out in fortnightly parts at 4d. a copy. Before many of the parts had been published I began to get letters from boys who had taken up the game for themselves, boys not belonging to the Boys' Brigade or any other association.

All the following year boys were writing to me telling me how they had started Patrols and Troops and had got men to come and act as their Scoutmasters. So we had to start a Headquarters office in a tiny room to deal with correspondence and supply equipment. I remember my Secretary wondering whether, if we laid in a stock of twelve Scout hats, we should be able to sell them all!

In that year, 1909, I arranged to have a meeting of the would-be Scouts at the Crystal Palace on a certain day. And when I got there, my wig, there were a lot of them. Rain was threatening, so we mustered them inside the Palace and arranged a March Past and counted them as they entered at one door and went out at the other.

There were 11,000 of them - 11,000, who had taken it up of their own accord! That is why I say that one didn't see the start: Scouting started itself.

The fifth year came, bringing the Great War, so the movement had every reason to die then, for most of the Scoutmasters and all the older Scouts left to join up in the Services. Of these, some 10,000 were killed. But the movement did not die. The boys were put on their mettle to carry on and do service for their country in the time of its need. Our danger was that enemy spies in the country would try to upset our war preparations by blowing up railway bridges, cutting telegraph lines, and so on, and at once Scouts all over the country mounted guard to protect such communications by day and night. Others were used as orderlies and messengers in government offices to replace men sent to the Front.

The Admiralty asked if we could send Sea Scouts to take over the coastguard stations and so release the naval ratings there to return to active service with the fleet. Luckily we had prepared a big rally of Sea Scouts in the Isle of Wight for the Bank Holiday of August, 1914, and the Great War, you may remember, broke out on that date.

So we were able to send off detachments at once to take over all the coastguard stations, from John O'Groats to Land's End. These detachments were mainly patrols commanded by their own boy leaders. We had some 25,000 boys doing their duty during the course of the War. They did their work thundering well, and after the War was over received the thanks of the Admiralty and of the King for their services.

So, instead of dying, the movement showed its vitality; it rose to the occasion and since then has gone on growing in strength and usefulness.

Mike,

I agree...And I know the BSA policy regarding Scouts not being a military organization. From my readings on this, BSA is mostly concern about Troops enacting military drilling and discipline. And again, I have no argument with you concerning Scouts reciting the pledge while saluting the flag. However, let's not have such a knee jerk reaction to the military. I'm proud of our Arm Forces. I guess what I'm trying to say is...Its all in how you say it...We're not the military verses WE ARE NOT THE MILITARY...Perhaps its just me, but I feel some Scouters think the military sets a bad example some how. In light of the sacrifices they have made, and will mostly like make in the near future, I just want see them shown a little respect.

From everything I've read on flag etiquette, I would say YES to both scenarios. As you face your audience (people sitting in a room, people approaching your home, people entering a camp, etc.), the U.S. flag should be to your right side, and conversely, to the audience's left side.

Try contacting any number of veterans' organizations, such as VFW or the American Legion. These groups wear garrison hats all the time. You may not be able to find a supplier that has them in green, but I'm sure there are suppliers out there.