Rooster7

Acco40, Let's stop couching the debate behind euphemisms such at "traditional values." If the words "traditional values" is a euphemism, what is it that you think they represent? I ask, not because I believe you have a defendable answer. I ask, because I believe you are posing a straw man argument. You've muddied the waters by making reference to several Old Testament laws that pertain to making oneself Holy and presentable before God. Not that these laws are not important to Jews and some Christian sects, but they are not what one commonly refers to as traditional values. Furthermore, youve referenced some other ideals (such as not borrowing money) that while they may have merit (depending on what faith one embraces), they are not considered bedrock traditional values. Then, shamelessly (sorry, but I really think you stepped over the line on this one), you included mental illness - as if to say, those folks who typically stake claim to traditional values might consider mental illness as a moral deficiency. This is pure hogwash, and at best, a poor and obvious attempt to discredit true traditional values. I am confident that most folks, not looking for a debate, know and understand exactly what traditional values represent. They are the values that most Americans, regardless of religion, embraced at the turn of the previous century. While they are often referred to as Judeo-Christian values, they were universally accepted and embraced by this nation - up until the sixties. At that time, a segment of this society decided that they had evolved, and progressed beyond the collective wisdom of our forefathers and dozens of previous generations. These pseudo-intellectuals tried to challenge and tear down every established principle. To add insult to injury, these misguided ideologues took credit for the civil rights movement and proclaimed all of their causes to be just as righteous. But, I digress. I disagree with your insinuation. Traditional values are not the source of confusion or disagreement. They are real, definable, and worthy of a strong and vigilant defense. These values include the sanctity of marriage, sexual purity, love and devotion to God, love and devotion to family and others, respecting the property of others, and many others. They have strong roots in the Ten Commandments. Our forefathers embraced these values and openly recognized the Bible as an authoritative source to validate them.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

CJ, Every time I'm prompted to reply, you seem to take the words right from my mouth before I can get them out. Keep it up...You're saving me a lot of time and energy. Excellent post! CrewGirl1024, You said, Look to your left....look to your right? How do you know if the person that would be sitting next to you is gay or not? You don't! Someone can be the coolest person in the world... Look to your left...look to your right, I guarantee you that no matter who you are looking at that person has sins and faults. As a Christian, I know every person falls short of God's righteousness and deserves whatever our Lord deems. However, because I cannot see into people's hearts, I must assume that they are repentant beings. I assume that they are making attempts to resist temptation. I assume that they are striving to become better persons. When folks openly proclaim their sin as something to be accepted, or worse something to be celebrated, I can no longer presume that they are resisting evil. In fact, they are embracing it. Gay activists celebrate their sexuality and proclaim it as if it was a badge of honor. If youre totally convinced that homosexuality is not perverse, then try this exercise. Instead of trying to convince me that its normal, try praying. Have that debate with God. Dont just give it lip service. Really try it. Im convinced that if you make a serious attempt to reach out to Him, He will respond. Im also convinced that if you truly listen to Him (as opposed to yourself); He will reveal the truth. When I was in my late teens/early twenties, I had many opinions that I was convinced reflected truth. Then I challenged myself to prove those so-called truths. I destroyed my self-created paradigm of God. I started from scratch. It was scary, but I made many discoveries since then. First and foremost, God may not be who you think He is (or rather, who you create Him to be). Second, God loves those who respond to His call. Third, if youre efforts are not self-serving; He will provide wisdom and guidance.

cjmiam, Thanks---for getting it. Sometimes, it seems as if there are fewer and fewer who do.

CubScouterFather, "I am Gay and I am Good." I am straight and I don't claim to be "Good". I have many faults and sins. I recognize these failings and seek God's forgiveness and healing. I hope and pray you can do the same. acco40, "Personally, I believe what many prominent psychologists believe. That people fall into a spectrum on the sexuality scale." Wow. I never cared much for the field of psychology. They have a way of making life much more complicated then it really is. So, if there is acceptable spectrum, I suppose you'd have to put all of the other "non-victimless" sexual behaviors in there as well- eh? Or, do you limit those sexual behaviors and attractions to only the one's that you can personally stomach? DSteele, "I apologize that you found one as polarizing as this one to read early on." When it comes to this "polarizing" topic, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. While I agree with the BSA policy, let's not pretend that this issue is about it's "narrow-minded" members. The BSA created the policy. The BSA clearly states that homosexuals cannot be good role models. In short, you're not being consistent. If your want to apologize to CubScouterFather because members of this forum vehemently defend the policy, then you ought to apologize for the existence of the policy itself - OR - apologize for neither. Although I haven't reread this entire thread, to my knowledge, no one's been hateful in their statements. I see no need for apologies.

First, I confess - I like to watch the show. Not sure why. Probably the same kind of morbid curiosity that makes one turn his head as he passes a car accident. I agree with the previous statements. I root for the good-hearted, fair-minded folks, but ultimately they usually do not go far. I also agree with DSteele, the youth mentor set the most horrible example. He used the same kind of ill founded logic that misguided youth might use (i.e., "I have been a victim of society, so everything is fair game."). I have to wonder, what makes this guy think that his words are going to be worth spit when he gets back home and counsels these boys. This show will be bad advertising for the BSA. If she goes far, she will most likely have to set a bad example to do it. This will make the BSA look hypocritical (even though she is her own person, folks will see her as representing the entire organization - at least those folks who want to slam the BSA). Regardless of when she leaves the island, contestants vying for the million dollars will portray her as weak and inept. It doesnt matter that her Scout skills would have served her well in a real life and death scenario. No one will see that. As KoreaScouter pointed out, the show is not about leadership, or even true survivor skills . Its more about personality, group dynamics, interpersonal skills, character, and ones willingness to abandon or remain true to self-professed values while others are watching (on national TV). Of course, in the end, most simply cop out by saying Its a game, not real life. Bottom Line: CBS, and probably all of the other contestants, do not care if they portray the BSA in a good light.

NJ, First, I challenge you to go back and read my previous posts. While I may have addressed different points on the same subject, my message has been consistent. Second, I never stated that what your son's troop does is wrong. Nor do I contend that they must do something else. If I'm guilty of repeating the same argument in different ways, it's because I've assumed that you could not understand my previous statements. Now it appears to me, no matter how I state my opinion, you will consistently try to find fault even when there is no real center of dispute. BUT in case you missed it the first time, MY POINT IS - If the chartering organization has no religious affiliation (i.e., LDS, Catholic, etc.), I don't feel it should be a unit decision. It should be the Scout or Scouter's decision as to how he says a prayer. In other words, if a unit tells a boy, "say these prayers and these prayers only" or "you can only say prayers in this manner" or "you cannot recognize your God by name", then I think the unit is overstepping its bounds...if not legally, then ethically. Every Scout and Scouter should remain free to pray as he feels led. It does not matter if the Scout wants to say the "Great Scoutmaster" prayer, the Lord's Prayer, or something from the heart. I just don't want to see units attempting to monitor and control people's prayers, public or not - even if it they use the auspice of "inclusiveness". And yes, from a personal perspective, I prefer prayers from the heart and I think they should be encouraged for the reasons that I have already stated (in previous posts). But, I did not say that other units should force their boys to pray that way that would be just as wrong as banning prayers from the heart. I hope this clears it up for you. If not, pray about it. ;-) Because I have no more energy or words that I care to expend on this subject.

I did not say all standard or generic prayers were wrong. By the way (just for Bob's edification), a generic prayer according Rooster's dictionary, is a prayer designed to be politically correct (not to offend), more than it is a true petition to God. A standard prayer is not necessary generic. Case in point, the Lord's Prayer is not generic, but I would describe it as a standard. A standard prayer is simply a known prayer that is repeatedly invoked. Nevertheless - NJ, my point seems to have escaped you. It was NOT that these types of prayers are always wrong. My contention was that troops (via their adult or boy leadership) should not force Scouts or Scouters to pray these prayers routinely and/or prohibit any other kinds of prayer simply because they are not generic and/or standard. I realize that there are exceptions, but I'd be willing to bet my house that the following is true - Troops that evoke standard and/or generic prayers routinely, recite them with the same kind passion of that a court stenographer might display. Furthermore, they are usually mumbled to the point whereas only those familiar with the prayer can fully recognize what is being said. I believe we should encourage actions that impassion our Scouts about their faith, not alienate them from it.

NJ, I like to think that the BSA gives adult leaders some credit for being intelligent and thoughtful folks capable of providing some ideas that can help the boys achieve their goals. Are you suggesting that adult leaders must not or should not come up with any ideas unless there is BSA documentation that specifically endorses the same? Certainly they support the idea of boys embracing their faith and being active citizens. That being the case, why would you suggest that encouraging boys to pray and/or to engage in political discourse is not kosher? They are consistent with the goals of the BSA.

Cheffy, Don't take the ribbing personally. I'd eat gourmet everyday if I could afford it. It's just a matter of utility value. Eat a gourmet meal today and starve for the rest of the week, or eat cheese steak all week long (so to speak). Although, even if I had the dough (no pun intended...well, maybe it was), I'd probably go slumming every now and again. Grease is one of the four basic food groups, isn't it? ;-)

Packsaddle, No - I wasn't suggesting that prayer be mandated. However, follow this logic. The BSA, as one of its main tenets, encourages Scouts and Scouters to practice their faith. Prayer, for most religions, is a huge part of one's faith. Consequently, it seems appropriate to me that troops should encourage prayer (not mandate it). Also, if public prayer is allowed (i.e., "Great Scoutmaster" or whatever), then all prayers should be accepted. They should not be submitted to a litmus test designed for inclusiveness. As soon as that starts, a troop is no longer encouraging a Scout or Scouter to embrace his own personal faith.

It IS AN EXCELLENT idea! Unfortunately, from what I've seen in my troop and others, this idea would not be universally accepted everywhere. Too controversial. This is one of the things that I was trying to allude in my thread "What is your program about?" I'm convinced that the parents (i.e., the troop committee) in my troop (sorry Bob, I'm not changing) would never agree to a political debate. They would do everything in their power to discourage it. They're too afraid to see what might spring out of it. I see it as a great learning opportunity for Scouts to explore citizenship and morality. Many others would see it as a catalyst for controversy and shoot it down without a second thought. It's a shame.

Acco40, What I have a hard time with is why individuals feel that "to recognize" or "adore" or "worship" that it has to be in a public manner. I understand that a person may have a personal like or dislike for public prayer, but that is not the issue. Were talking about a troops willingness to allow individual Scouts and Scouters to express their faith. Some faiths encourage public prayer, so long as the focus is on the petition and God, not oneself. Regardless, a troops willingness to allow individuals to express their faith should not be based on the personal preferences of others. I tell my children that they may pray all they want at their public school. It is my understanding that nobody has invented thought monitors just yet. However, I am very much against our public education system conducting verbal prayers or moments of silence solely for the purpose of prayer. I understand that some folks are against any accommodation made by a public entity to allow and/or to encourage prayer (although, Im not one of those folks), but again that is not the issue. Were discussing a specific private organization, the BSA. Public prayers have been conducted at BSA meetings for generations. The issue is - Should a troop attempt to regulate the prayers of Scouts and Scouters? I believe the answer is No. Why does you feel your faith requires you to verbalize your prayer? That question does not appear to be relevant. The answer to that question should NOT guide a troops policy on public prayer. How a Scout or Scouter interprets religious doctrine, or how he feels God is guiding his actions, should not be open for debate. Boys at this age have a great desire to fit in. I can't count the number of times I've seen boys tell others to take off their hat, bow their head, etc. and to "act accordingly" during prayer. They don't yet comprehend that religious customs vary widely. Heck my own children have admonished me for not kneeling during mass (I'm not Catholic). I dont see how these last thoughts tie into the discussion. Whether or not all Scouts can appreciate someone elses religious customers or convictions, is not the issue. Your counter-arguments (if thats what they were intended to be) are distractions. Should a troop attempt to regulate the prayers of Scouts and Scouters? If your child does not understand a prayer, then I suggest that you as the parent educate him as you see fit. The answer is NOT to force everyone to say the same prayer. FOG, As I read the Old Testament, the God of the Jews does not say that there is no other god, just that you can put no other god before him which would make him the Supreme God. Leaves lots of room for the existence of Thor, Apollo, and Shiva. While I generally agree with many of your thoughts, I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the Old Testament. The God of the Jews (who is the same God of the Christians) was not telling his people that it was okay to recognize other gods, or even that other gods existed, he was simply telling them to put Him first above all other things. In a spiritual sense, when it comes to neglecting God, almost anything can be considered a god. For example, for some folks, sexual sin can be considered a god, because they put their desire/lust to obtain that gratification above their desire to please God and conform to His precepts. Even professional football can be considered a god if you place a higher priority on seeing the game then you do on worshiping God with His people. Per the Old Testament and the New Testament, anything that draws you away from the true God, can be considered a god. Regardless, this does not mean that we (Jews or Christians) cannot hear the prayers of others. If a Scout publicly prays to a Hindu god or Buddha, I can simply (and silently) change the address. If a Scout makes a petition to God that I dont feel is appropriate, I can simply (and silently) change the petition. In short, hearing does not equate to agreeing or believing. There is no good reason to regulate the prayers of Scouts and Scouters public or not. Now, can we move this thread back to its original intent? Does your troop implement the BSA program in a manner that puts focus on character building? My favorite responses thus far have been from Laurie, Twocubdad, Eagledad, and jbroganjr They seem to understand my concern. I like what they are doing in their troops. NJ, youve been trying to pick an argument with me since the beginning of this thread. Okay, so youve successfully picked an argument with me. Im easy. Im passionate about what I believe and Im quick to take the bait. Lets move on. How about this? Lets drop the discussion on prayer for the moment - Please try to address the bigger picture.

Ed, If I'm ever in Pittsburgh, I'm looking you up and I'm expecting you to treat me to a Primanti Brothers Samich. ;-) It's sound like my kind of food. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like the kind of sandwich that's good for your heart. But, just to stir the pot, and since I'm being health conscience, what do you say if we wash it down with an ice-cold beer? They say, a little alcohol each day is good for you. FOG, I had to laugh when I read your description of a gourmet meal at an upscale restaurant. If money was no object, I could appreciate those kinds of meals more. Those fancy sauces taste great, but for $50, I can put down a lot of cheese steak.

acco40, Open your mind folks Ironically, I offer you the same advice. Many folks are not lukewarm in their belief. My God demands that I recognize Him and Him alone. My children are taught the same. In Scouting, I expect their right to believe in and to act upon their faith to be respected. No where in Scouting literature does the BSA ask Scouts and Scouters to hide their religious beliefs. If you are open minded (as you've suggested), for the sake of your own religious freedoms, you should be able to tolerate other people's viewpoints and their prayers. It should not matter who is in the majority and who is not, so long as everyone is given the opportunity to express their faith.

All I am really saying is that if it works for a unit, it works, and if the unit wants something else, that's fine too. I'm not telling anybody what to do. Perhaps I am having too much of a knee-jerk reaction - But, the problem I have with your statement, is this - If the chartering organization has no religious affiliation (i.e., LDS, etc.), I don't feel it should be a unit decision. It should be the Scout or Scouter's decision as to how he says a prayer. (This message has been edited by Rooster7)

Allowing/Encouraging boys to offer prayers from their hearts (as they feel led, regardless of faith) was just one point I made, in regards to how troops might be able to put more focus on character building. If open prayer rubs you the wrong way, I'm sorry...But that wasn't the primary emphasis of this thread. It's sad that some folks find it to be such a sore point that they can't focus on any other aspect of this discussion. So, NJ and others - I hear your message - "If there's a chance that one person will be offended or slighted, then we should oppress everyone's right to publicly express their faith in a Scouting forum." - I just don't agree with that message. This sentiment is being presented as if it were inspired by a vision of multi-culturalism, when in reality it's narrow minded and oppressive towards all faiths. The BSA encourages each Scout and Scouter to embrace his faith. Apparently, you feel thats just grand, as long as each Scout and Scouter expresses his faith within the confines of his home or church (i.e., anywhere but not near any other Scouts or Scouters). I dont think thats what the BSA intended. In the name of tolerance, we should encourage open expression of peoples faiths, not oppress it. Regardless - I repeat - the above debate was not the intended focus of this thread. My aim was to call attention to the fact that many troops seem to treat "character building" as if it was something to be avoided as opposed to a mainstay of the BSA program.

Mark, No problem. I just feel that a monetary gift is very helpful and thoughtful - for a teenage boy (who's saving for a car or a computer or college, etc.), especially when he's already received a dozen similar gifts, such as an engraved Leatherman.

EagleDad, While your questions were thought provoking, I misunderstood your intent. I thought you were trying to expose a flaw in my reasoning by juxtaposing it against the BSA mission statement. Sorry - But I find myself on the defensive sometimes. It's partly me...maybe its mostly me (who knows). And it's partly the argumentative nature of some other posters. So, I appreciate the fact that we agree and I hope you did not take offense.

NJ, Suffice it to say, my view on prayer (which is one that is shared by many Christians) is not the same as yours. While this is not the topic of the thread - I don't believe a Scout has to sacrifice his individuality to subdue the masses, even in regards to how he might say a prayer in public. Your suggestion is contradictory and counterproductive (i.e., "don't pray in that manner" so that other faiths won't be offended). I find your suggestion to be offensive to my faith. If everyone took this tact, eventually, Scouting would have to disassociate itself with all faiths, because someone somewhere, would claim to be offended. Carrying your suggestion to the extreme, "the Great Scoutmaster" prayer could be construed as offensive to those faiths that embrace multiple deities. My point - Let folks practice their own faith as they see fit AND - Don't try to censor Scout and Scouters so that their faith is unrecognizable. It's offensive. Scouts and Scouters should be able to pray as their faith encourages them to do so. If the prayer is public, then other Scouts and Scouters should be tolerant enough to hear it. And before someone throws out the "fine, but do it in your church" counter argument - I try to practice my faith wherever I go, it has nothing to do with a building.

OGE, Exactly...and yes to the latter thought as well. :-)(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

Instead of saying a short rote prayer, where by a few if any, actually grasp and/or embrace the meaning (but everyone mindlessly repeats) - I am suggesting a prayer that is from an individual's heartnot rehearsed or from a book, and addresses concerns that are close to that individual and those around him. P.S. - You generally know one when you hear one.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

For starters... Regular Scoutmaster minutes dealing with issues of character (not just once every couple of months, but once every couple of weeks). PLC discussions concerning disciplinary problems maybe a little root cause analysis, what caused the problem, who's behavior needs modifying, how can the boys help prevent such problems from reoccurring again, etc. Stronger/Vocal encouragement for religious awards (i.e., God and Country). Encourage the boys to discuss spiritual things and to debate political issues. Encourage the boys to think about doing skits that provoke thought, not just to be goofy. Encourage the boys to do presentations about our country's history. Encourage heart-felt prayers, not just generic ones. Encourage more troop activities that involve the entire family.

EagleDad, Never said that it shouldn't be boy run. I don't have a problem with "lead by example". I have a problem with a "lead by example" attitude that precludes Scouters from having a discussion with the boys. While setting a good example should always be applauded, we shouldn't use it as an excuse to not have an open dialogue. They need to hear the reasoning behind our behavior. Otherwise, it may be interpreted at a very superficial level or even misinterpreted. Furthermore, strictly leading by example is dependent on circumstances and the availability of each boy in the troop to witness the said behavior. In regard to the BSA mission statement - "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." I fail to see how my concern (i.e., too many troop's fail to emphasize charter building) contradicts the BSA mission statement. In fact, my concern is very consistent with the mission statement. NJ, Never said that fun should be abolished.

It's great to receive a special gift that provokes memories. However, there is a limit. Two of my sons' recently had their Eagle COH. We had over 200 guests. While engraved knives, eagle statues, etc. are thoughtful and appreciated, they can get a little repetitive. In short, I have to disagree about the money. My boys received close to $500 each. Neither of them felt the money was tacky. In fact, they very much appreciated the gift and they will remember those folks who gave so generously.

TwoCubDad, I agree. I never meant to imply that patriotism and reverence were the only two values worth discussing (although, I beleive a strong argument can be made that these two values will lead you to all others). Words are very hollow at this stage in a boys life. They respond to deeds, not words. Acco40, I disagree. Deeds alone rarely tells the whole story. If we leave things unsaid, children don't know to believe. Personally, and please don't take offense (it's not aimed at you personnally), but I feel the "lead by example" mantra is an excuse to not do the real work - Talking to our children.