Proud Eagle

The Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal is awarded by the DOD.

When it is awarded for service to or in Scouting, it can qualify as a BSA Community Organization Award.

In those cases, the BSA allows the recipients to wear the COA knot, since the award is officially recognized by BSA.

One of the requirements for the BSA to recognize any COA is for that organization to charter at least 25 Scouting units.

The national relationships division handles all of this working with the various national charter organizations. Currently there are only like seven or so nationally recognized COAs.

In any case, I don't want the award to lose its current status as a BSA COA, but it looks like it will unless the BSA policy on COAs is changed.

Used clothing.

That seems like a good idea.

The used clothing has to be gathered up from donors, collected in a central location, taken to whoever is shipping it, packed and prepared for shipment, moved (almost certainly by air) halfway around the world, unloaded, sorted, transported by the now mostly destroyed road network, and then distributed.

Can anyone guess what the cost of all that is? I would be willing to bet it is higher than the cost of buying them new locally produced clothing.

Plus, it will take quite a while to do, even before you factor in various delays. Keep in mind, airlift capacity is limited and will for the short term be dedicated to the most immediate needs such as water, food, and medical supplies.

While clothing is an immediate need, the used clothing drive is not a valid way of meeting such a need. (Though it would be a fine way to meet an immediate need if a disaster hit close to home.)

Perhaps after the immediate needs are met, used clothing could be shipped to the area.

At the current time, I would suggest collecting the used clothing and giving it to a local organization. You could of coarse suggest that local organization consider donating the excess the the disaster relief effort.

I am all in favor of helping those in need, but we need to consider the needs, our abilities, and how to best match our abilities with the needs of others.

I only mention this because I have heard a couple of reports from organizations that say that while they can find uses for clothing, canned foods, etc, they really can make better use of money in the case of the disaster in Asia.

First off, the Venturing program, while certainly compatible with summer camp, isn't really optimized for it. That is particularly true with some of the interest options available. While there are certainly many Venturing program related activities that could take place in a resident camp setting, most Venturers would rather be out on a trail or doing some sort of high adventure.

Those two factors make it more difficult to offer a Venturing program at a BSA resident camp, and makes it less likely that a Venturer would attend camp compared to a Boy Scout.

Also, the number of Venturers compared to the number of Boy Scouts is relatively small in many areas. Therefore, it is difficult to justify setting aside either a part of the summer season, or an entire facility just for a Venturing program.

Finally, Venturing is a relatively new program. Boy Scout camps didn't pop up complete with well run programs, good facilities, trained staff, and all the other things that are expected of a BSA resident camp in any sort of short period of time.

However, I think that there will eventually be some facilities set up primarily as Venturing camps. Other facilities will start having special Venturing weeks. Most of the rest will probably start adding some things to the weekly program to interest Venturers that may come during the normal camping season.

If your Crew wants to go to a BSA resident camp, I would suggest contacting your council and find out what they offer. Chances are that if you are willing to work with the council and and the camp leadership, some sort of arrangements can be made even if the camp has never hosted a Crew before. It would probably be a good bet to shoot for one of the weeks with lower numbers of Boy Scouts, that way you are more likely to be able to use the parts of the facility you want and receive a greater degree of help from the staff.

All that being said, things will improve with time (or some sort of change will be made, one or the other). I know my council welcomes Venturers, Sea Scouts, Crews, and Ships along with the Boy Scout Troops. While the camp program is structured around the Boy Scout program, there are many activities available for a Venturer. If Crews and Ships show a continued and increasing interest in attending camp, then there will be more programs catering to them in the future.

In the mean time, just find a camp that is willing to take a Crew and work with the camp leaders (before arriving) to arrange a few special program items. Or better yet, find a camp that already has special programs for Venturers.

Could someone correct me if I am wrong, but won't the BSA be losing one of the Community Organization Awards in 2005 since the DOD will no longer have 25 Scouting units?

Obviously the criteria could be changed, but if it isn't, it looks like the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal will no longer be able to be a BSA Community Organization Award. Though the DOD could still continue awarding it for volunteer service to Scouting.

Right.

The important part is spending Christmas night on your sisters floor in a sleeping bag breathing pine stuff that you are alergic to all so you can give and recieve the oh so proper gifts with the relatives, take the proper holiday photos, and record the family movies that no one will watch until they are too old to see or find a compatible play back device.

Yep, I understand.

Since we are still snowed in, we ordered up some fried mushrooms, hot wings, and pizza, watched a beutiful sunset across the river and the snow covered landscape, drank some Fosters, put on a Christmas CD, and exchanged a few gifts.

We may go see relatives tommorrow.

Or not, just depends on the roads.

In any case, I am in the Christmas spirit, and I get to sleep in real bed.

The recent snow storm, while causing many problems, has presented a Scouting opportunity.

We now have more snow on the ground than any other time on record save one.

I have never built a snow shelter, never seen one built, and don't have any idea what to do.

Could someone provide some ideas on how to go about building a basic one person snow shelter (and where to look for more information)?

Most references seem to deal more with solid packed snow, or ice. What we have is mostly fine grain loose powder, the sort of stuff skiiers love.

I need a response quick, since I will probably only have a few hours tommorrow morning to work on this project before the folks will decide it is time to hit the road and start the slow and dangerous drive to visit the relatives. (I think both my parents are nuts. I personally wouldn't even think of going any place tommorrow. After all, there is still a state of emergency, and yet they want to drive 120 miles. Oh well, I guess I will go along like always.)

Our council used to have almost everyone recharter within about a month of each other. That worked horribly.

The back log of recharter stuff would take the registrar at least six months to process. Therefore, we wouldn't recieve the new charter and new membership cards until they were already half expired.

This happened every year.

Now they are trying to get each district on the same month, but with each district doing it at a different time than the others. Hopefully this works better. We shall see.

The only copy of the adult application that should have a SSN on it should have gone to the council. The unit should not have a copy with the SSN on it.

So who do we need to go beat with a stick for requiring you to enter information you aren't supposed to have?

Never assume people know something. That is a very bad idea when some outcome you are looking for depends on it. For example, no one in my troop knows when our district roundtables are. No one really cares either.

If someone put something in our troops mailbox/folder at the office, we would not receive it... ever.

We don't do business with our council office except for advancement reports, recharter, and a few other necessary things. For anything we can get some other place we go some other place, like the office of another council which is located closer to us than our own council office.

Also, you could perhaps expand your outreach to include SA. Perhaps the SMs are too busy or set in their ways, or whatever, but there may be some Assistant Scoutmasters that would be willing to give it a try.

I know when I first became an SA I went to a couple of roundtables because no one else would. I quickly stopped going because I got nothing of any use out of the meetings.

Will I be going to roundtables in the future? Probably not. After all, I am now an Assistant Scoutmaster, Lodge Adviser, and council camping committee member. Add to that the fact I will be taking classes full time, and perhaps working a few hours now and then to earn some money, and I don't really have time to waste on another meeting that does nothing for me.

If I thought I would benefit, or the troop would benefit, I would go.

I attended a Boy Scout training session a while back. There were three trainers. The first half hour or so was done with one group, and was informal.

Then one trainer took all the committee people into another room to do Troop Committee Challenge, and the other two stayed to start on SM specific. The two did a pretty good job, and for the most part their styles complimented each other. This kept things more interesting than having two nearly identical trainers or one solo trainer would have.

The one problem was question and answer. There were a lot of problems adjusting to the idea that a units way wasn't the BSA way, or that the way it was 30 years ago isn't still the way, or someone just hadn't had enough exposure to be able to conceptualize what they were talking about.

The worst was when they tried to explain the differences between Exploring, Sea Scouts, Learning for Life, Venturing Crews, Varsity Teams, and Venture Patrols. This took about a half hour to straighten out, and I really think I was the only person in the room who really was confident they knew what those things were (and I am including the trainers, they weren't quite with it on that one).

Over all it was a good training, but I really felt like it was pretty basic, and that people were coming in not really prepared to learn the material that was supposed to be presented.

Oh, as to the know it all Eagles, count me as one. I am sure I come off that way, though really I do understand just how little I know and how few experiences I have had. The difference is, that what I learned as a youth is still mostly the same as the current program, and I have been continuously involved. The problem is any leader that learned an older version of the program well enough to feel comfortable with it, then left the program and is coming back expecting to pick up where they left off without anything having changed.

I probably would have closed the BW thread.

I probably would not have closed the censorship thread. After all, it does sound a bit off to be censoring a thread on censorship, even if it did deserve it.

Perhpas moving to the issues and politics section would have been more appropriate, along with posting a warning about using the program section for non-Scouting discussions.

In any case I think the mods do a decent enough job.

On an unrelated note, does anyone else think the real discussion of program has slowed down a bit lately along with the off topic stuff. It seems like somehow those off topic things eventually wound up generating more real program related discussion. Maybe that debate/argument/conflict kept things fresh and interesting. I don't really know. It could just be the time of year, I don't know.

If the unit policy is to include Boy's Life for everyone that raises funds, I would say you really shouldn't be changing the policy after the fundraiser is done. Thats sort of like saying go out and do this and I will give you this thing over here, and then not giving the person that thing after they go and do what you ask them to.

It just isn't a very good way of doing business.

Also, I would be willing to bet more of the kids read the thing than the leaders know.

Finally, what else are they going to use that $700 for? Is it really needed for something else? Or do they just want to give the pinewood derby winner a 3 foot trophy this year instead of the 18" one like they used last year?

Lets see, for the lodge (not really a unit), I just this past weekend had a retreat and a good amount of time was dedicated to that topic. (or topics like that)

As to my troop, well, lets see... it would be easier to list what should stay the same.

We have a good supporting CO, even thought they don't really get involved in operations. (closer relationship would be good, but not vital at this point)

Parents are supportive and involved. (They just need some direction, training, brainwashing, etc)

Financial situation is solid. (though it could always be better)

We have good equipment. (though some needs to be replaced soon)

We have some really great traditions and a very solid nearly 30 year history. (Unfortunately people mistake the troops past program with its current one, and then use the past success to justify the current straying from the program.)

Things that need to be seriously worked on:

Unlearning bad habits.

Training the current leaders.

Selecting quality leaders.

Recruiting quality leaders.

Training those recruited to be leaders.

Getting people to read the books instead of always asking someone or making up an answer.

Creating an annual program plan through the proper process.

Holding PLCs.

Reviving the patrols and using patrol method.

Recruiting new boys.

Have activities planned for new Scouts not just the experienced ones.

Stop using meetings as MB classes.

Start using meeting to teach Scout skills, plan activities, have fun, build patrols, and prepare for excursions.

Start having real BOR conducted by the committee members.

Define the difference between the committee and the mob of parents.

Start training youth leaders.

Let youth leaders do their jobs.

Let youth drive the car without causing a wreck. (Figuratively speaking only.)

Start making use of all 8 Methods to work towards the 3 Aims in hope of achieving the Mission and bring the Vission a step closer to reality.

I could find out when it moved since I have a final season patch from the old museum (actually a couple) in my collection. We took a trip their during lodge fall fellowship. I joined the lodge in 1999, and I would guess the museum moved in perhaps 2001.

In any case, if you do go to the LBL area, consider a stop at Camp Roy C. Manchester, which is located on Kentucky Lake.

If you really want to know consult the Guide for Officers and Advisers. Also, check your lodge's by-laws and procedures for additional details after reading the section in the guide for officers and advisers.

OK, now on to what you wanted to know.

Well, to be quite technical, only a lodge may nominate someone for the Vigil Honor.

You see, the National Committee actually has authority to approve all Vigil Honor nominations. Each lodge must form a committee of youth members (often Vigil members, but can include anyone not eligible at the time) who are appointed by the Lodge Chief in consultation with the Lodge Adviser. The Lodge Adviser appoints a Vigil Honor nomination committee adviser in consultation with the Chief. The SE approves all members of the nomination committee.

Now, in some lodges, there are nomination or recommendation forms available to the members of the lodge. If they know of someone that fits the selection criteria, they can fill out the form and write something to support this argument. The nomination committee then reviews these forms and other information as part of the selection process.

Each lodge is given a set maximum number of Vigil Honor nominations based on the membership reported at the most recent lodge recharter. The committee may select up to that number, but it could decide that a smaller number, or even none, are worthy. Also, at least half of those selected must be youth. All of those selected could be youth.

After selecting the nominees the committee (sometimes aided by another group who have particular expertise) then uses a reputable Native American language reference to create the names. Often the word list from the OA Handbook is used, but there are many other references in lenape and other languages that are sometimes used.

In the end the Vigil Honor Petition is filled out, signed by the Lodge Chief, Lodge Adviser, and Staff Adviser (or SE), and sent to the National Committee for final review and approval.

Really, if you want to know how this works, consult the Guide for Officers and Advisers and the policies and procedures of your lodge.

Or ask a lodge officer.

Or ask a Lodge Adviser (oh, hold it, I just gave you an answer from a Lodge Adviser, though not your Lodge Adviser).

At a recent OA Section COC meeting...

The youth representatives of one lodge, who also served as the committee chair and co-chair for one conclave committee showed up wearing the Venturing shirt and blue jeans, no sashes.

That cost them some points when they walked into the room.

When they were introduced for their presentation, and everyone realized what their jobs were, the expectations became lower still.

Then, when their presentation turned out to be less than fully prepared, and they proposed a controversial new expenditure, it was greeted with outright hostility.

After all, who are these guys showing up in a half you know what uniform of a different part of the program with some crazy idea and then expecting everyone to understand them when they can't really explain it?

In the end they had to be asked to make a second presentation later in the meeting after everyone had cooled off some and they had a chance to more carefully consider their arguments.

It all worked out OK, but the point is, if you don't dress the part you start out with points against you.

If your Crew makes its own uniform, create the entire thing, don't just coble it together from what BSA suggests and what you choose. Let us use the example of a Crew that focuses on history, lets say the Civil War. It chooses to use a CSA style uniform for its Crew uniform. So, which will look better when they send someone to a meeting outside the unit, someone in half Venturing/half civilian clothing, or someone decked out with a complete and sharp CSA style Crew uniform? If your crew doesn't use the Venturing uniform, when you send people to meetings outside your crew, have them wear a shirt and tie or something like that. It least that would look decent.

(I should note that as far as I know the Scouts at the COC meeting had no connection to Civil War related Crew, that was just an example I made up.)

I should note the nearest Scout Camp to there is Camp Wildcat Hollow in Russelville, KY. There isn't much at Wildcat (or the rest of the Badgett Scout Reservation) that couldn't be found at some other camp, but I thought I should mention it.

Bob White was, and I hope still is, a valuable member of this forum.

I did sometimes lose patience with answers, but in hind site he was right more often than not. I can really only think of a few times that after digesting the argument I thought he was in some way wrong.

He is certainly the best one man BSA reference library I know. In a way, he is somewhat inspiring.

Because of him, and others like him, I am turning into one of the local book thumping, policy quoting, so annoyingly right types. The reason for this is I am seeing more and more the value of following the program. I could even list some policy changes that has helped bring about. It isn't so much Bob White, as it was his showing that there really is a correct way to do most things, and that it really is OK to follow the book instead of figuring it out on your own. Around here it seems to be a badge of honor to be untrained, inexperienced, and totally clueless about where to turn for answers, and yet still deliver a decent program.

Bob, if you read this, know that I appreciate your contributions to Scouting, and I hope you at least pop in from time to time because there are some questions that will stump the rest of us, but you will know where to look for answers.

Actually, that isn't true.

There will be a NOAC in 2006.

However, there will be no NOAC in 2008. Instead, they are planning some new nationwide service project focused on several national parks. The current thinking is to have Arrowmen get together at several parks at the same time and carry out one of the largest single service projects in history.

Then the plan is to wait until after the 2010 Jambo which will celebrate the 100th birthday of BSA.

After that, they will have the next NOAC on an odd year so that in 2015 there will be a NOAC for the 100th birthday of OA.

Or at least that is the plan as of the last I had heard.

So I take it then you are in favor of the BSA and GSUSA being denied access to facilities and support by the government?

Right, so the fact that someone else recieved an award with a similar sitation proves that Kerry was right.

No, it could just be evidence the Navy made two mistakes, not just one.

Also, one must recall that there are literally dozens of veterans who joined in the fight against Kerry.

Now, it is possible that the larger group of people who opposed Kerry were in fact engaged in nothing but a consipiracy to defraud the public. However, it is also possible Kerry and his supporters were either incorrect, confused, or were deliberately misleading.

If you look at the numbers of veterans supporting each version of what happened in Vietnam and after, more supported the Swift Boat Veterans version than supported the Kerry version. It seems to me implausible that there were that many veterans with either personal grudges against Kerry or political vendettas to make that sort of difference.

In any case, the entire Vietnam/Vietnam protest issue from the campaign was a total dissaster for everyone concerned. It would have been best if everyone had simply left the issue alone. However, that isn't what happened. So, instead the old animosity over anything even remotely related to Vietnam was dragged up and made fresh again. I guess it was too much to hope that the country would finally put all that behind it.

I certainly don't know which version, if either, was correct. I wasn't there, and those who were can't seem to agree on what happened. The official record is somewhat unclear on several points. So, I don't really think we will ever know. Some will choose to believe one version or the other, others will just be left more confused than they were before. However, one thing we should all agree on is that all who answered the call to service by their country in that act did an honorable thing. As to the question of weather their entire records are honorable, or their post-war activities were honorable, that I don't feel competent to judge.

Local option in no way fixes this. Instead, it will only make things worse.

Most of the cases have focused on the atheists not the homosexuals, so taking the homosexual issue out of the mix only helps marginally, assuming it helps at all.

Then there is the issue of what happens any time a group surrenders its ground. It is seen by its enemies and opponents as a sign of weakness and a sign that they can force more changes. If BSA retreats it will simply encourage those wishing to either change or destroy the BSA. If you think there are too many legal actions involving BSA now, and too many media based attacks, and too much politics in the issue, just wait and see what happens if BSA retreats.

Another problem would be that pressure would then be brought to bear on local units, local councils, volunteer Scout leaders, and quite possibly even the youth. Creating local option creates an incentive for the people attacking BSA to start attacking the individual units and individual leaders.

Also, allowing local option won't give BSA greater access, because the fact that it still allows for, and some units choose to use, discriminatory policies would almost certainly result in anti-discrimination policies continuing to be applied to units even if they chose to allow homosexuals in. That is, unless BSA want to run a public campaign to create and publicize a new system of unit designations to note which units do and don't discriminate against homosexuals.

So, as we see, creating local option would neither stop the ACLU, nor most of the other legal challengers. It would not stop those in the media opposed to BSA. It would not stop the politicians who seek to force change on the BSA. All it would do is show to everyone that BSA will negotiate on issues it considers to be related to its core values. The public will see it that way and some will even lose respect for BSA. After all, it isn't so hard respect someone that takes a principled position even when you disagree with it. However, it is very difficult to respect someone that is willing to put their values up for sale, even if you agree with their position.

So, the positive affect of units allowing homosexuals would be limited to the benefit of the individual homosexuals that would then become members.

The downside would extend to the entire BSA on the issue of atheism.

There would likely be a decline in support from certain corners, without any appreciable increase in support from others. (After all, I don't think it is likely that the various homosexual groups are going to come running to support BSA even if it changes its policies.)

There would be an entire new category of attacks on local leaders and units based on pressuring individual units to change policies. This would pass the burden of fighting this battle from the relatively well prepared national and council levels (with lawyers, public relations experts, etc) to the relatively ill prepared local leaders who do not have training or experience in dealing with these things, nor do they have support from lawyers and PR firms.

So, why exactly would local option be a good idea (other than the possible benefit to the homosexuals directly affected) ?

To "fix" the problem BSA would have to open its arms wide to welcome every homosexual or athiest that had an interest in joining. Of coarse, it would also have to find a way to replace the many leaders, supporters, and chartered organizations that would drop the BSA. That would, I should note, include replacing me. I could probably live with homosexuals (though I doubt I would ever be willing to put my signature on anything other than an adult application after that). However, if BSA ever gives in on duty to God, then the BSA I know will be dead, and I will find some other place to invest my time and tallents.

Many traditional summer camps are set up for Boy Scout Troops. Therefore they could easily provide facilities (program being a seperate issue) for an all male Crew. However, providing facilities for female youth is something many camps are not prepared for.

My council's camp is set up for the Boy Scout program. However, Venturing Crews and Sea Scout Ships are welcome. That includes co-ed units. Last year we hosted one co-ed troop from the Czech Republic. We also hosted at least one co-ed Venturing crew, plus some all male Venturing Crews.

If your crew wants to try a bit of sailing, but doesn't think it is ready for seabase yet, you may find one of our programs interesting. We offer a 5 day sailing program on Kentucky Lake. The program is based out of Camp Roy C. Manchester, the summer camp for the Shawnee Trails Council.

I don't know exactly how many of them were involved with that coarse, but it was a safe bet that there was at least one. I don't think it is possible for a council level activity to take place around here without at least one.

I can't say that my troop has ever been featured, but the international Scouting programs of my council and its camp were featured not long ago. I even had a chance to have 4 scouts (3 females, 1 male) from the Czech Republic in my Archery MB classes this past summer as part of the same program written about in Scouting. (The Czech side of the program has been featured in some publications over there as well.)

Unfortunately we were in a poor position (due to problems with council and loss of leadership) to take advantage of it, so it never really became a big deal, though it could and should have.