Prairie_Scouter

Just an FYI.

Terry commented in the other "performance" thread yesterday that there has been a problem with one of the servers that this site runs on, and that he's hoping to get to it this week. Hang in there.

I asked about "help" and newer software, but haven't heard back yet. When I hear something, I'll try to respond back in these threads, if Terry doesn't have a chance to.

Ok, I have to say this.

Some folks have really gotten pretty disrespectful of Merlyn here. You don't agree with him? Fine. Does he get carried away sometimes? Sure. Who doesn't here? If I had a Scout in a troop meeting saying to another Scout "Spare us your blah blah blah" (which I think is actually from another recent thread, but I feel the sentiment here as well), I'd be sitting down to have a serious talk with him.

If you don't like what he's saying, disagree, disprove, but don't belittle. Maybe what he's saying has struck a nerve someplace, and that's what's ticking people off.

Of course, I'd expect the same level of respect from Merlyn towards everyone else.

So, Torveaux, comments about Saturnia are "BS" why? Yes, there's an underlying celebration that predates it. So?

It's pretty well known historically that many of the stories in the Bible are based on traditions that pre-date Christianity. The creation story is just one. Is talking about the Bible "BS" as well, then?

Anyway, back on topic....

Bruce, as I said earlier, using "holiday" is just fine. Enjoy it, as should we all .

For kids the age of yours, I'd steer away from the Xbox, not for any technical reasons, but because you've got more age appropriate games available with the other systems. Xbox is very cool, and Xbox 360 promises to be even better if they can actually manufacture some that don't crash a lot (reportedly a BIG problem right now). But, PS2, and for that matter, GameCube, have more games for younger kids. From that perspective, I'd probably go PS2. The price is right, and of course, you'll just spend the money you save on additional games, anyway

"Never been a big fan of restricted membership policies."

And therein, Dan, lies the problem. Many of the religions, especially the more conservative ones, tend to believe that unless you believe what they believe, you can't get into the pearly gates. There's a certain "oneupsmanship" in place in some cases, ie, "my religion is better than your religion". The thing is, nobody really knows which, if any, religion, is the "right" one. It's all a matter of belief; no science involved here. And that is fine in my book, as long as people don't come along berating my belief system because their's is somehow "better". Unfortunately, there's an awful lot of that going on these days as our country becomes more and more divided along religious lines, as well as political lines.

As far as what Jesus "said", people need to be really careful there. There are some very strongly held beliefs that hinge on the exact meaning of a word here and a word there in the Scriptures. Translations of ancient languages is not always an exact science; there's the meaning of the word, and it's meaning in the context of the text, and in the context of the time. The Bible itself is a selection of ancient writings, not a thorough record. Pick one phrase, and you've got the need for men to love and respect each other, pick another and you've got slavery.

I agree with ronvo. It's just a job. If the opportunity presents itself, go for it. It has nothing to do with Scouting.

Sounds like a fairly responsible way of managing the resources.

Bruce,

I agree with everyone that said you should just let it go. Enjoy the season and don't let one putz take the fun out of it for you.

Just say, "it wasn't our intent to offend anyone, just to use a term that would be more inclusive". If a dad is so, well, unbalanced that he would pull his sons out because of that, you could be better off without him, although the boys could certainly use a more open view of things.

As far as taking the "Christ" our of Christmas, didn't we already cover this? If anything, the early Christians took the "Saturn" out of Saturnia, which is what this time of year was celebrating before the Christians "borrowed" it. So, let's review a couple of quick bits of history. Christ was most likely born around 3 BC, in the spring, if I remember my history of the times. The celebration of Christmas began as the celebration of Saturnia, venerating Saturn, the Roman god of the harvest. So, why are some people getting all caught up about something that was fairly arbitrary to begin with? Maybe the Christians should give Saturn his festival back and pick one of their own, huh? (the previous paragraph spoken "tongue deeply in cheek....)

"Happy Holidays" isn't some new PC phrase; It's been used for decades; remember the old Crosby movies? Let's all sing together...."Happy Holidays........."

I think a lot could be done to lower expenses just by taking advantage of the technology available today. I've seen parts of the BSA software, and it's pretty archaic looking, even tho it's only a few years old. Badly designed interface, poor response time, not a good example of technology. Now, that's only based on a couple of observations, but I'm told that that was pretty indicative. I've gone so far as to suggest to people at our council that BSA could start up an "open source" initiative to build a new system. You gotta figure that BSA has its share of geeks that could do that sort of thing . Anyway, no response, really, but the point is, technology can do a lot to help manage scarce resources better.

That includes our camping facilities. If a facility is falling into disuse, I'd have to ask "why?". Maybe answering that question would go a long way towards figuring out the solution.

We use a Piantadosi track; have had it for 3 years now, with a Micro Wizard timer and starting gate. Also use Derbymaster. It's all worked very well for us.

For any track with lower friction, be it aluminum or plastic laminate or whatever, there is the issue of possibly needing additional length to separate the cars. Even our our wooden track, the fastest cars are now only separated by several thousandths of a second. I wonder, really, if we need that kind of resolution on the timers. Cars that are that close at the finish are essentially tied. Does a kid really want to watch his car battle all the way to the line, look to be exactly tied, and then find out that he lost by .002 seconds? I dunno, maybe I'm just getting too old, but at some point, it's supposed to be mostly fun. I wonder if the technology is starting to get in the way of that.

We'll occasionally complete the BOR for a Scout who hasn't completed a POR timeframe if he's only a week or so short, so that he can be recognized at the upcoming COH. The understanding with something like this, of course, is that he continue his work to complete the required task. We've never, ever had a problem with someone "cheating" on this.

Thanks, le Voyageur, for an excellent post and thought.

And, for the record, when I started this thread, I wasn't looking to anyone to "justify" why they hunt. I was just interested, like I said, in the attraction to the sport. Thanks to all those who gave it a "shot".

Jack Lewis also was a member of the Church of England and rejected the claims by the Roman Catholic Church that it is the one true church of God. So, if we believe his claims about Christ, to we have to believe his claims about the Catholic Church as well?

Unless, of course, you're talking about the Jack Lewis who played for the Red Sox in the early 1900's

I'm *not* a moderator, so take this with a grain of salt. I did talk with Terry about this awhile back, and at that time, he was having a "challenge" with the servers. Someone in the other mentioned topic noted that we might have outgrown the forum software. Or it could be Terry just needs some help. As I said in the other thread, I live in the same general area as him, so I'm going to drop him a line to see what the situation is. He does, after all, have a real business to run as well . I'll report back through the other thread.

Well, when I was the CC of the Pack, I had them. Now that I'm the SM of the Troop, I've got them. Hmmm, seems to be a trend . I THINK that this is technically the land of the CC, but I suspect it becomes more of a "who's got space" kind of thing.

He does have a real business to run as well as taking care of Scouter.com for us. Maybe he just needs some help. I agree that updating to newer software might help. Not having the "active topics" query working is really a drag. Tell you what; rather than sitting here scratching my head, I'll drop him a line separately and see what's going on (we live in the same general area). I'll report back.

Ed,

Aside from having a really cool planet, the god Saturn in old Roman beliefs was held to be the god of agriculture and the harvest. It was believed that he also introduced civilization and government in ancient times. So, not too bad a guy as gods go

Rooster,

Believing that Christ was a great teacher and philosopher, but not the son of God, is "silly"? Why is that? Because it doesn't match your belief system? Sounds pretty disrespectful of any non-Christian believer.

Torveaux,

I wonder why you think we're at the top of the food chain. Because we eat the most?

Hi Anarchist,

Well, we are all "visitors" in wilderness areas, whether we be hunters, photographers, hikers, etc.

Now, I didn't say that I "hunt" in my time as a photographer; I just said that I have learned many of the tracking skills that a hunter would use. Depending on the wildlife, I may have to occasionally get closer than some hunters would in order to get the shot that I want.

It seems from the posts here that the majority of hunters do have respect for the life that they are ending, which does go back to traditional roots. I think that that's an important thing. Maybe I've just seen too many idiots hunting in the "wilds" of Wisconsin and Illinois. Could be I've been looking at a bad sample.

Yes, if you say "modern hunters", you're right. Most species that were going to be driven to near extinction already have, and those species are being managed as best we can to try and increase their probability of survival. On the other hand, people out West are chomping at the bit to get the grizzly off of the protected list now that they have at least reached critical numbers, so that they can start killing them again.

Not trying to make anyone fit into my sense of morals. Just trying to understand why people do it, at a very basic level, and not trying to judge. I certainly don't feel morally superior because I get my food at the Jewel. I don't think it makes me somehow less moral than a subsistence hunter, either. I rock climb; most people think I'm nuts. Different strokes........

But, I guess I'm going to have to take issue with what seems to be really negative characterization of those that you describe as "tree huggers". Depends on your definition, I guess. I think we need to recognize that we share a huge ecosystem with everything around us. We have demonstrated that we can and will destroy large tracts of land for not so savory motives. We've demonstrated that if the profit is right, we'll drive animals to near extinction. The question is whether we can shepherd what we have so that it is still here for generations to come, and not make such bad judgements that we start to endanger those generations to come. Right now, I think we're making some really bad judgements. On the other hand, I think our forests have to be managed effectively, and our wildlife as well. As much as I'd like think that we can live peacefully with nature, I don't think that that's really possible. We are a predator species (although as soon as we put our guns down, we drop down the list pretty fast ), and we also have a responsibility to manage prey species where we have eliminated that natural predators. There need to be a balance, and I hope that the majority of those who take those opportunities to kill animals in the hunt have the proper respect for those lives, that's all.

Me, um, many.

I know awhile back Scouter-Terry said that he had to take one of the servers out of service. Maybe it hasn't made it back in yet.

I can get in if I take the "long way", but a link to the past 24 hours topics doesn't seem to work. Fails on a timeout, especially if I use a bookmark I have that goes right to that page. It's been doing that for awhile.

Well, you know, Terry provides this to us at no cost to us, so we have to bear with it and hope that he has the time to take a look at it.

I think it's a mistake to get so caught up in the uniform that you lose sight of what we're trying to accomplish. What good have we done a boy if we push him away because he's not wearing some special pair of socks?

Personally I think that the spirit of the uniform is all embodied in the shirt and insignia, etc., on it There's nothing special about the rest of it; others may disagree. Nonetheless, I do wear the full uniform, and encourage our Scouts to do so as well.

I agree with all of the arguments on why we need to keep the herds healthy. I think that there's a certain irony in the fact that hunters pay to help keep the herds healthy so that they can keep killing them, but it does work. In the modern world, wildlife has to be managed as more people encroach on historical wildlife ranges. I believe that we are much too selfish as a society to say, "Stop. These other beings have a right to their living space as well". I think that that is the root problem. We as human beings think that we have some divine right to expand our populations and "range" without limit, and "plow under" anything that gets in our way, including, at times, other humans.

Someone mentioned visiting Horicon in Wisconsin. The bird refuge butts up right against the hunting area, and what I find amazing is that you can go up there during the migration and see tens of thousands of geese in the refuge, but hardly any of them will go into the airspace over the hunting area. Smart birds, those geese.

People do get distressed over the geese, and their byproducts:), in the burbs around Chicago. The wintering area for the geese here is just in Southern Illinois, so they can get there in a day if the weather turns bad, and return later when the weather clears (how they know that, I have no idea). So, folks buy these expensive houses near the drainage ponds, and then are surprised when wildlife gathers there. I may be a city kid, but I'm not THAT dopey. Here's a true story. There's a nature sanctuary near us that has a demonstration farm to give kids an idea of what farm life would be like. About 10 years ago, a small piece of adjacent land was developed and some large homes put on it. Folks thought it was pretty cool to have a nature sanctuary right next door. Scroll forward a few months. Home owners start complaining that on some days, it smells like a farm in their neighborhoodk, and wild animals keep walking through their properties. Duh.

Anyway, back on topic. Not so much wondering about the "need" for hunting to replace the predator species, but more on the mindset that can take some sort of "pleasure" in killing another living thing. I agree with all of the good things that go along with hunting, up to but not including the point where the trigger gets pulled and the animal goes down. Seems like many of the points made here talk about the comradery, the thrill of the chase, the tracking skills, but I don't see many people talking about the actual killing. Maybe it's some sort of "guilty pleasure" or something?

Ah, a conversation near and dear to my heart. Unfortunately, not a topic I have a good solution to.

First, video games didn't cause the girl's seisure. It was the strobe effect that was included in the game. Other similar lighting sources could have caused the same thing.

My boys like to play video games as well. When discussion has come up in the family over what is an appropriate amount of time to play, I try really hard to look at both sides. These are straight "A" students. They're not wallflowers; they have good social skills. So, I have to ask myself, would I be as worried about this if they wanted to play baseball all day?

High school football players practice for hours each day. Anyone really dedicated to their activity will spend a lot of time at it. I'll sit and read for hours (well, I would if I wasn't spending most of my time on that "hour a week" I spend on Scouting ). I'll work on photography for hours at a time. I'll go to a movie and have entertainment fed to me for a couple of hours at a time.

So, I don't really know the answer to all this. I don't think that video games are some sort of universal evil. Some kids are prone to problems, and these might be aggravated by too much video gaming. They might have the same problems by constantly watching the violence on the nightly news.

I don't know that we should take this one incident and conclude that these are bad parents, either.

LisaBob,

My feelings about uniform use aside, it just seems to me that you've got an adult leader who has no common sense, and, well, isn't much of a leader.

Thanks, Manyirons, for your years of service to us, the citizens.

Administrations come and go, politics change, but the men and women of the armed forces are always there to protect us and our interests.