ParkMan

36 minutes ago, David CO said:

Hate is a word is being greatly overused now days. If we try to maintain moral standards, we are accused of hate. If we support upholding our laws, we are accused of hate. So it is of little surprise to me that if some of us would wish to limit the salaries of BSA employees, we will be accused of hate.

I don't need to know you in order to come to a conclusion about executive salaries. I can read the numbers. 

 

Perhaps hate is overused and we can argue whether it's the right word.  But, reading over the posts it's clear that there is a negative, dismissive, hostile tone towards district executives.

My sense is that there is a lot you all can do at the district level.  In my district I see lots of opportunities to help youth.  OA, advancement opportunities, camping opportunities, etc...

To me it's kinda like when a den leader makes the transition to being a pack leader.

31 minutes ago, gblotter said:

For LDS families, Scouting will compete with many other activities, including sports, music, drama, and school clubs. Our church youth program generally occupies one night a week. My own family always gives careful consideration to overscheduling on the other nights. It a difficult balancing act to decide between many good choices.

30 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Whatever the new program will be, I don't doubt it will be as involved and time-consuming as Scouting. The lucky Mormons are the ones that only have to attend three hours of church.

Ok- got it.  Thanks guys!

8 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

The LDS Church is not just dropping Scouts, they are replacing them.

BSA may get a slice of the pie short term as the young men try to finish Eagle.  Long term, I am afraid they will only get crumbs. 

My church has a youth group - so do many.  That doesn't prevent the kids from being interested in Scouting.

I get that in general the LDS community is more insular.  But don't LDS kids play baseball, soccer, fencing, etc...

BTW - I'm not suggesting that Scouting will get a large percentage of LDS kids - just wondering if it will be similar in number to other denominations.

A fellow scout leader once described Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts as being like baseball and soccer.  Yes, they are both sports, are player outdoors, have teams, and use a ball.  But, they are different.

I'm sure some folks from an LDS background will embrace girls in Cub Scouts.  They'll look at the program on it's merits and choose.

Actually, thinking about it, I don't see why lots of LDS wouldn't check out Cub Scouts for girls.  Now that it's becoming just another extra curricular activity why wouldn't they?  I presume LDS families participate in other co-ed activites.

Sounds like a guy who needed a bigger title for some reason - longevity, pay, whatever.  Maybe your district has some specific needs that require a more senior person. 

28 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Possible, but unlikely. Under that scenario, our troop would need to find a new Scoutmaster. I will be ready to exit BSA on 12/31/19. I'm quite disillusioned over BSA's girl decision. This new Family Scouting is not for me.

Then help them find a new Scoutmaster before you step down.  I'm stepping down as Committee Chair, but I'm helping through the search.

As I see it, you've got a Troop with boys who want to be Scouts.  In my book that's the most important requirement for a troop.  The rest is all mechanics.  Volunteers can be recruited, a CO can be lined up, camping equipment can be found.

We had a troop in our district lose their CO a few years ago.  They went down the street and regrouped.  Did they lose some boys who were members of the original CO - you bet. But it all worked out.

In my book these National decisions are important, but still not nearly as important as the simple wish of boys to be Scouts.  

3 minutes ago, gblotter said:

What's the difference between a District Director and a District Executive? Our council has a mix of both positions.

Is a District Director an unpaid District Executive?

A District Director manages District Executives.  It's a first line management position.

4 hours ago, gblotter said:

That idea was actually proposed by some of our Scouts - just continue the troop but with a different chartering organization. While that sounds fine, I doubt we could find enough adult support without the push of the church behind it.

For my own personal situation as Scoutmaster, I will exit BSA on 12/31/19 over disillusionment with the girl decision. The needs of boys now bow before the god of inclusiveness, and that feels like a betrayal. It's time for me to make way for a new kind of Scout and a new kind of Scouter and a new kind of Scouting.

I'll admit a bit of a smile here.  Welcome to the world of non-LDS Scouting.  There are never enough volunteers.  The church is just about never behind what we're doing.  No one is instructed to be a volunteer.  The volunteers are out there.  It just takes a little vision and persistence.  

We'd love to have you join the club

So I come from the thread on how professionals are no good to the thread about how Scouters who take Wood Badge are no good.

I think this is a bit unfair for us to generalize.  We're making statements about who DEs are and what their motivation are.  We all have different experiences.  I know mine well and he was a guy who was a dedicated scout and later volunteer.  He decided he wanted to make a living out of it.  Yes, he worries about money and membership because he has to.  But he's also first to be concerned about program too.

1 hour ago, Gwaihir said:

That's crazy to me.  I carry my pocket knife around with me literally every day and feel naked without it, figuratively speaking. I carry it to work, to church, around the house, in the yard, to the super market, everywhere.  It's a multi tool and I've used at least of it's implements at least once a day, if not multiple times a day and have come to the aid of people all the time because I had my pocket knife on me.  I've also gotten comments thereafter about how "well, you are a boy scout"  To modify the old proverb about prophylactics... A knife is like an umbrella, it's better to have one when you don't need it, than to not have one when you do. 

This however is why comparing the US to the UK is a futile effort, something as simple as carrying a knife around has so markedly a different perspective.  Comparing our Scouting programs is completely out of scope. We're different cultures from soup to nuts. 

Only to play devil's advocate...

I've been given two or three pocket knives over the years and have never bothered to carry them.  I have to cut something once a week or so.  When I do, I grab a pair of scissors or a utility knife from the garage.  To me they're just a tool. I don't carry a screwdriver around, why would I carry a knife?

I'm glad we have the freedom to do it, but it's not a big deal to me at all.

11 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Well, stepped aside and now through the grapevine, I hear the new SM is spreading rumors about me.  I am trying to ignore it but I am infuriated that someone would attack my character.  Especially when it is done behind my back while being nice to me in person......

I'd let it go.  Your work as Scoutmaster will speak volumes.  I'd you get dragged into it, then it just gets worse.  I'd be happy with your service, take the high road, wish him the best, and just move on.

7 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Just curious - in your troop, would adult leaders proactively address incidents of pornography and swearing, or only if a Scout is courageous enough to step forward and voice a complaint (or not even then)?

Yes - of course.  We occasionally have a boy swear and a leader talks with him.  We've never had an incident of pornography.

6 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

How can a few people chatting online "establish" what was ultimately behind the BSA's decision? Alas, we can hypothesize all we want, but we don't really know what went behind the move. 

All I know is that I am against it, and will leave the program with the Church next year. 

Do I believe in Scouting? Yes, with all my heart yes.

Do I believe that the Boy Scouts of America still delivers the quality of Scouting and the purity of the program that it once did? 

No. I don't believe it does anymore. And I can't invest my time in an organization that has lost the vision of its original programming. It breaks my heart, but I have principles that the BSA is moving away from, and my principles come before my passions. 

Fair enough.  Just struck me that the LDS decision was likely in the works for some time now.  A decision last year to admit girls  didn't seem to match up sequence wise with the LDS decision.  But, perhaps I'm wrong.

I do understand where you're coming from and think it's unfortunate for the Scouts that we loose good people because of this.  Who the BSA admits is less important to me than the core mission of bringing Scouting to the youth in the program.  Do I agree with the recent decisions - sure.  But, had they not happened, I'd still be a volunteer.  I understand that for you these decisions overshadow the core program.  Though we see it differently, I won't try to persuade you.  I tried that last week with some others to no avail.  I'll just simply leave it at that it's sad we'll lost you.

30 minutes ago, David CO said:

Not a chance. I never contribute to FoS.

I'm sure that DE's work very hard, and put in long hours, trying to raise money to pay the bloated salaries of the higher level scout execs. That's your job. You don't do anything for us. 

 

When I was a Cubmaster I'd have said much the same.  My pack never camped at Council camps, never participated in District or Council activities, never took advantage of any support from a DE on membership or anything else.  We were the big, successful pack that did it all our self.  For our part, the only relationship we had with the BSA was:
- purchase badges and other items from the store
- turn in recharter packets & applications
- the occasional training

So, in a real way, we'd have said much the same.

When I joined the troop, I saw that things were different - but only because we wanted it to be so.  We go to camporees, council events, council camps, make better use of training, etc.  We're better off for it, but I do still remember those days in Cub Scouts when we operated completely independently.

14 minutes ago, gblotter said:

LDS Scouting died in July 2015 when BSA announced its decision to admit gay adult leaders. The funeral was simply delayed due to the time required to formulate a replacement LDS youth program. After BSA's July 2015 vote, the strongly worded LDS response was shockingly candid in airing dirty laundry.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is deeply troubled by today’s vote by the Boy Scouts of America National Executive Board. In spite of a request to delay the vote, it was scheduled at a time in July when members of the Church’s governing councils are out of their offices and do not meet. When the leadership of the Church resumes its regular schedule of meetings in August, the century-long association with Scouting will need to be examined. The Church has always welcomed all boys to its Scouting units regardless of sexual orientation. However, the admission of openly gay leaders is inconsistent with the doctrines of the Church and what have traditionally been the values of the Boy Scouts of America."

That's essentially what I thought too.  Thanks.

Reading it over though, it's interesting how the BSA leadership maneuvered here.  Makes me wonder if the relationship was already strained.

2 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

I am afraid this is not an accurate understanding of our relationship with the BSA. We did not adopt Scouting as a matter of convenience; in fact, implementing it took a great deal of effort, and meant cancelling a youth program we already had in place. 

The need for a unified global program is only one part of the reason for our exit. The other very much is the fact that the BSA is making a broad statement with its recent policy changes - the statement that boys and girls learn in the same way, and that one program can adequately meet the needs of both with no need to differentiate between the sexes. This fundamental ideology, that boys and girls should just share the same program, is a complete turn-around from the roots of Scouting, which was a program specifically tailored to the needs of boys. It also goes against what we believe in the Church - that men and women are fundamentally different, that both serve complimentary but distinct roles in the family and in society, and that our gender is an eternal part of our divine identity. The new BSA ideology no longer matches those beliefs, and so it would be inappropriate for the Church to be associated with a program that now has a distinctly different worldview.

This is not a matter of convenience. It's a matter of principle. We can still support and serve and encourage one another's growth, but we cannot share the same ties that we could when our core beliefs were the same. Had the BSA stuck to its original values, there would not have been such a need for us to take a stand like this.

But I thought this forum had established that the BSA decision to go co-ed was because the LDS church had already the BSA leadership it was leaving.

Let's say though that they hadn't.  The BSA created all kinds of special stuff in the program for the LDS church.  I would imagine that the execs would have gladly said that LDS units were exempt from the co-ed program.

It used to say that Cub Scouts were only allowed to use flat bottom boats.  The current G2SS appears to have clearly moved away from that.

Scouters of different ages help create a richness in the adventure. Yes, a younger adult can strap on a pack and lead the boys on a great hike.  Any older Scouter can help at Camp, telling stories, imparting wisdom to the boys. 

One of my most memorable conversations as a scout was with an older Scouter who helped me through a time on a trip when I got myself in a 14 year old snit.  He helped me to see the bigger picture.  Explained to about how I was technically correct, but was missing the bigger picture.  I think of him to this day.

I hope the experienced Scouters continue to keep coming back to our troop.  They add so much to the experience for the boys.

I'd be interested to get Mike's opinion on what a troop should do.  Much of what I see in his comments a unit could do today.

Increase the adventure in your troop program.  Make your troop program less coddling. Etc.  I grant that National has restricted too many things in the name of safety.  But I bet there is lot troops could do now to start the process.

9 hours ago, DuctTape said:

For me it is all about the unit level. Always has been . It matters not to me what extra membership requirements some other unit uses to allow or disallow scouts or scouters from their rolls. If some other troop somewhere is a girl troop, it doesn't affect my troop. Just because the neighboring troop doesnt use the patrol method at all, and is basically an adult run activity center, it doesnr affect my troop. Just like we tell families and scouts, find the troop that you fit with. If it is no longer your current unit, find a different one. 

This is my feeling too.  Our program is our program.  The scouts are still going to have great experiences and it will be fun and rewarding to help make that happen.

I do get the feeling of hurt.  Folks know that I think the membership changes are for the better- but I really do understand the hurt and betrayal they are causing.

Despite that, I just keep thinking about the scouts and the wonderful adventures.  None of these national changes will change that.  So, for me I don't have a big concern about the future.  I'll keep Scouting as long as interested kids show up that want to have the great Scouting adventure.

Hypothetically speaking... 

Were this the District Award of Merit.  In my book, I think a district should feel free to award this to an individual once per district.  The recipient hangs the plaque on his wall next to the other one.  But, the recipient only wears one uniform knot.  The uniform knot is a recognition that you've earned the award.  I think you just wear it once.

On the District Award of Merit nomination form, it says: It is not appropriate to nominate a Scouter who has already received this award.  So, if the nominator paid attention to that, he should not have nominated that person.  But, if the nominator ignores it and the District Award or Merit committee selects that nomination, then the recipient should gracefully accept it.

I

2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

We need parents to unplug as much as we need the youth to. I have tried for 3 years to get any type of adventure Campout on our calendar (3 day canoe trek, two night backpacking trip, etc.) and I get nothing but pushback from the adults. Kids say they re all for it. For the adults, it is either not their cup of tea (it's so much easier to just sit on your but at a fire, or "big activity" would be to go cast some lines), or they don't want to have to give up their whole weekend (they cannot fathom getting home later than noon on Sunday). So, program devolves to become family oriented. Yes, we'll do a summer trip, where families are invited, and there will be a day of kayaking (flat water, guided, where any 8 year old and his parent can go)- hardly an actual adventure. 

Mike is so right. The wussification is the number one reason more youth are not into Scouting today. As much as the "political" issues bug us adults, the youth generally could care less.

Our troops challenge is coming up with adventurous ideas.  We all most never veto an idea because of G2SS rules.

Maybe we could have some of the grey-beards share some ideas we could learn from.  I'd appreciate it.

3 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

I don't think the youth of today have that much higher expectations than we had (in my case 40 years ago when I was a scout).  I do think the current crop of Scout leaders has been trained to be less adventurous. We have the GTSS, which is pretty stringent at times. That said, based on talking to one of my sister-in-laws who is a GSA leader, BSA has almost no risk aversion.  They are more  cautious than we are. 

What I meant by changed is that my world is much broader than my fathers and even more than his fathers.  When my dad was a kid, vacation was somewhere in the state.  When I was a kid, vacation was a trip to the beach.  Today, my kids go to national parks all over the country, travel to Europe, etc.  Travel is just less expensive than it once was.

My kids have 200+ TV channels with stories about exotic places, survival experts, etc.  When i was a kid we had National Geographic, a few TV channels, and the movies.

I remember one of the troop high adventure trips a few years ago.  By coincidence my family was visiting many of the same places at National Parks on the west coast.  We'd see an email from the troop that they'd gone somewhere and I'd think - yep, we'll be there tomorrow.  When I was a kid you'd do things in Scouting you couldn't other places.  Now my kids just go on vacations with us.