Outdoors

SOLO

http://www.soloschools.com/index.cfm?event=courses.show&ctid=1

Extremely easy to find a course. Very useful. Took one last spring, 2 year certification.

There is another one that does WFA courses in New England, I forget their name but a 25 second google search should tell ya.

"Without the scout promise then what is it that they're practicing? It isn't scouting."

I find that highly offensive.

So what you are saying is Atheists can not be trustworthy. Atheists can not be kind, loyal, helpfull or brave? Atheists can not go camping, hiking, or teach kids orienteering or first aid skills. Atheists posses no leadership qualities and are on par with what, pedophiles?

Well yes, that is exactly what BSA says. Which yes, I do find highly offensive. BSA does not have a monopoly on "scouting". BSA does not define "scouting". BSA has a legal trademark on the name and can legally prevent any other organization in the USA of using the word "scout" in their organization's title.

But no, BSA does not "own" scouting and neither do you.

There are millions of people involved in scouting through the world as well as in this country that are not part of BSA and do not agree with the BSA and they have every right to do so and they are in every way a part of the scouting movement as started by Baden Powell. Just as BSA has every right to set whatever membership requirements they wish and if they want to force people to be religious if they wish to be a BSA scout then so be it, they can and people can or can not join.

Yes, BSA is scouting. So is everyone else that does not subscribe to BSA's policies whether they are religious or not that is part of the world wide scouting movement. What makes a person a good person comes from within themselves and has nothing to do with whether or not they consider themselves religious. There are plenty of evil people who are or were religious. All those horrible Catholic priests that molested kids? Bin Laden believed in a God. Even Hitler in his own words stated: "I am fighting for the work of the Lord". Yet, BSA would rather have him be a leader than a very kind and wonderful person who just happens to not believe in a higher power.

My point is simple: BSA scouting is just one scouting group. There are many more valid scouting groups out there with vastly different views than what BSA has. Even Baden Powell himself, while critical of Atheists in his own writings recognized that not everyone believes in a higher power yet those children should still have the opportunity be a Scout. And one version of his original Scout Promise allowed just for that. The original outlanders promise did not have God in it. And the original law did not have 'reverent'. You don't like it? Tough, argue the point of what scouting is with the person who founded it.

BSA can do whatever they want however they want, they have the right and neither my personal opinion nor yours is relevant. But don't you dare for a moment tell someone else they are not a true Scout just because they are not part of BSA.

Wait?!

You mean the Earth isn't flat?

Shucks, don't tell the Muggles.

Basementdweller, I have no idea what you are trying to get at or if you are trying to pick a fight. So to prevent that, i'm not going to say anything else on this thread after this reply.

A question was asked, I gave a response.

I also am not sure if you are implying that 12 year olds are not old enough to go backpacking? Some are, some are not. Some 30 year olds couldn't handle it, some can. You can not make a blanket statement and apply some arbitrary age to say who can and cant. The youngest person to complete the AT was only 6. That is a pretty decent backpacking trip, one I could not do right now. If you dont think kids under 14 can backpack, try reading Up: A Mother and Daughter's Peakbagging Adventure by Patricia Ellis Herr. I believe those girls were around 6-8 when they completed all of NH's 4000 footers (something I have not done) and many of those trips were backpacking trips. Some covered 18 miles in one day.

And I will repeat myself. If a troop does a 50 mile trip, they should do lots and lots of smaller trips. Anyone interested in the 50 miler, should go on all the shorter ones to both test themselves as well as demonstrate to the trip leaders that they can handle it. Condition by doing, load up a pack, go for a few miles at first and build from there. Educate yourself in safe hiking, bring the essentials, and understand that knowledge is more important than gear - but don't skimp on the gear, know how to use it. Rely on yourself.

Children can accomplish great things, just believe in them.

edit: oh, and no my son is not a wolf - what does that have to do with anything

(This message has been edited by Outdoors)

Limiting backpacking trips by age is ludicrous. A child of any age can do ANYTHING, all they need is an adult to believe in them. However, if an 11 year old scout has never been on a 2 mile hike in his life, I would never permit him to go on a 50 mile backpacking trip.

It is more mental than physical. I know of some 8 year olds that could carry a greater % of their body weight and hike longer and for more days in a row than many 38 year olds.

I strongly believe that if a troop has a quality outdoors program they will have opportunities for many hiking trips through the entire year, at least once a month. They may be short day trips ranging up to that long 50 mile 3-5 day annual trip. It will be very evident which scouts have the interest and ability to complete that 50 miler by simply observing how they do on all the other trips.

If your troop doesn't do lots of hikes and just the 50 miler and kids are not going hiking with their families, then you have a recipe for a trip that none of them will want to do again.

Regardless of any other hikes during the year, I would have a shakedown overnight trip. Just a few miles in to a camp, spend the night, and a few miles back out. For any kids that have not backpacked before it is a good opportunity to figure out what gear works for them and how much they can handle w/o getting stuck on a long trip.

For me personally, I try to hike and backpack as often as I can. But if I go a few weeks w/o (or months as it is now) then there is no way I could do a 50 miler - it doesn't take long for me to get out of shape. Teen age boys, probably not as big a deal. But I know my body, they need to know theirs. One of the trip leaders main responsibilities is to know the ability of everyone on the trip, and the best way to determine that is to go on lots of smaller hikes and trips before and observe.

Best way to condition, is to do. Carry a large pack with all overnight gear, and go on a short day hike. Do that every weekend.

While I could not possibly disagree with BSA policy more than I do I do support their right to do whatever they want. Nobody is forced to join. dont like it? Don't join. You will NEVER get BSA National to change, they are stubborn and set in their ways. So quit and join another organization that provides everything BSA does but without the stuff you don't like. We're not welcome here anyway, so why waist the time. You can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person. Unfortunately people often cant agree to disagree when it comes to religion. Just think, if instead of spending all that time arguing on this forum about an issue that you will NEVER agree on, you instead spent it on improving the local program for your kids, how much better would the kids be?

B-PSA, Navigators, Spiral Scouts, Campfire, etc. Lots of options, with B-PSA being the most like BSA in my opinion. More than likely some of those are going to be better fits, some not, but I bet at least one is. And for those in the UK, BPSA is over there as well, WFIS has hundreds of thousands of members. No need to join and keep supporting organizations you don't believe in.

See, this is why I think it is too bad that religion has any part of BSA. Once you bring that many people together (actually it only takes 2 or 3) you are going to get people of all kinds of beliefs who lack the capacity to be civil when discussing religion or politics.

That's why I don't allow any religion in my den. We have several atheists and several religious folks. I told them all that I do not believe it is my place and should not be BSA's place to tell you how to teach faith to your kid, or even if you should. Leave it at home in the family. Everyone is in complete agreement. We have been extremely successful.

Are we ignoring BSA's policies? Probably. Would BSA just as soon throw us out, or at least half of us? Yup. Then there would be no program for the local boys and the membership and money folks at council get less of each. That's why they probably are happy to just ignore us. Which is good, we ignore them so it is mutual.

So BSA, you can (OGE here, the postor made a suggesiton to the BSA which is decidely not scoutlike) as I choose to instead focus on teaching kids respect, responsibility, leadership skills using the outdoors and community service as the classroom and allowing parents to decide how faith is taught. And hey, we ALL get along, of all religions and no religion everyone together having fun, learning, and accomplishing goals together. Imagine that.

I believe THAT is the lesson that should be taught to boys AND girls.

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I agree with what people said.

But remember BSA does not have a monopoly on Scouting. They are just the largest in the USA. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_Scout

Scouting for adults, Rovering, existed in BSA years ago. And it still does in the B-PSA. If an adult wants to learn the same skills and badges up to 1st class then they can. Then it focuses on other achievements and you get more badges.

If recognition of your achievements is important as an adult, check out B-PSA. But you can learn all the same things and achieve the same personal growth as a BSA Scouter you just dont get all the badges to wear on your uniform. You get what you put into it.

Personally, I don't need any recognition beyond watching the kids learn skills and grow. I find the B-PSA very interesting for other reasons which dont belong in this thread, Rovering is not one. But for other people, Rovering may be important to them and it is great there is a viable option for them.

awanatech,

Thanks for the comment.

To others, Agree with the policy or not, that's not the point I was making. Many people refuse to acknowledge that some people A) are ignorant of the issue and B) when they find out they leave over it. That is a fact that cannot be disputed yet people here have made comments that those people must be lieing about why they leave.

I do completely agree that most of the people that drop out do so because of a program that did not meet there expectations or conflict with sports. However, there are also many that either just find out about the policies or suddenly decide they can no longer support them and drop out because of that. And I may be wrong, but for every one of those there are probably several that never join in the first place over it.

But, BSA as a private organization can set "membership requirements" anyway they see fit, I actually support that. I just personally don't agree with them and I and others always have the right to go elsewhere or stay because of the great things BSA does provide. What just gets under my skin and what made me lose my cool earlier was that people seem to pretend that the BSA does not discriminate (legal or illegal) and not acknowledge that for some people that is why they leave.

"BSA doesn't discriminate, they have membership requirements."

OMG are you serious? If that makes you sleep at night I guess. Have you looked up the word discrimination in a dictionary you moron?

So when African Americans had to sit in the back of the bus it is because the front of bus had membership requirements for white skinned people only. That wasn't discrimination either I guess as far as you are concerned.

I am completely dumbfounded at that comment.

(You can ask if the poster is serious without being vulgar in describing "How serious and OMG is plenty)

OGE

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I have found that quite a few families actually have no idea about the extent of BSA's discriminatory policies. And all of them that I talked to strongly feel those values are wrong to teach to their kids. They also feel that the positives outweigh the negatives because the local unit puts on a good program and there is no other alternative.

I am aware of quite a few people have or are planning to leave BSA because of their policies. B-PSA is an option for them.

Yes you guys are right, wasn't in a good mood I think when I posted that and I sound a bit crazy now that I read it. Sorry. We can all call ourselves crazy once and a while can't we?

NJ, that list is in fact all merit badges. I grabbed the list and just read down it and typed in the names of the outdoorsy ones. And you are correct, by participating a boy will not gain 100% of the requirements for the badge. But they will get 100% of the knowledge and skills. The rest is paperwork and perhaps a "formal" test/demonstration.

But still, it is the knowledge learned that is important and that is what you gain from an outdoor program. The rest is just a badge you can sew on your sash for recognition.

I find it truly amazing that every time I make a post on these forums that implies that a Boy Scouts should get outdoors to camp, hike, canoe, fish and just simply be outdoors people here immediately jump all over me.

These should be part of a monthly program (not all of these every month, but every month should including an outing that includes one or several of these activities) (first aid skills should be practiced on a regular basis):

backpacking, camping, canoeing and/or kayaking, cooking, first aid (actually every outing should have at least one WFA certified person), fishing and/or fly fishing, hiking, orienteering

And these probably a little less often but part of a yearly program

climbing, cycling, geocaching, pioneering, rowing, swimming, whitewater, wilderness survival

I could find several more if I looked at the list more closely.

That is just my opinion of course. Flame away as everyone here always does. I apologize for sharing some of the ideals of Baden Powell and Green Bar Bill in my desire to get kids outdoors which is no longer part of the modern core program. Which is why, if you really do want to be part of a program that teaches kids leadership, responsibility, respect, and many other values using the outdoors as a classroom then BSA is not the place. BSA could be and there are many troops that do an awesome job at it, but personally for me finding like minded people that share my opinion has been a lost cause.

Being involved with scouting has reduced both the quality and quantity of the camping and other outdoor activities I enjoy with my family and I am not so sure that is what Scouting's founding fathers intended.

If a unit has a proper yearly program in place consisting of a true outdoor program then many MBs will be EARNED by the boys just by participating in the troop's events.

Some MBs will require the classroom lecture format unfortunately. But in my opinion, scouts should be all about kids DOING things not sitting there in class, they get to do that already in school.

And lastly, to touch upon my 1st point again, I prefer to focus on the program (activities during meetings & outings) and the skills and lessons learned on the journey and not on ranks, badges, and rewards as those will come naturally for any scout who fully embraces the program.

Today I just bought my 8 year old son a small fixed blade knife. I will always keep it and if he wants to use it he has to come and ask and get it from me and use it safely under my constant supervision. But just imagine if he accidentally brought it to school (which would also require me to forget to take it back from him), they would have the school locked down, SWAT brought in, and CNN news crews there and he would be expelled and I'd be thrown in jail for child endangerment and have both kids taken away. Heck, he can't even bring it to scout camp so we'll have to get a folder for scouts and then use this other one for other outings. (I dont want to start a fixed vs. folder debate - both have their strengths and weaknesses and like everything you need the right tool for the job)

Heck, when I was in high school ('88-91) I do not remember what the policy was on knives. But I do know what the policy was on guns. If it was deer season you could bring your rifle to school as long as it was unloaded and you immediately checked it in with the Principal. And then you picked it up when school entered just before leaving. Students did that that wanted to hunt right after school in the woods behind the school w/o having to go home first. So it was not unheard of to see kids walking down the hall just before school started carrying a gun on their way to the office to check it in. Sounds crazy today, but we are only talking just over 20 years ago.

Guess how many kids were shot? None.

I do have my grandfather's well used pocket knife. I would like to pass it on to my son. The way society is going it will be outlawed and confiscated from my home long before that time ever comes.

If it were up to me, ban 'em. I don't even own a cell phone, and hope I never do. So I guess I am a bit biased. And perhaps a little anti-social.

Personally it is my goal to live and recreate in places where there is no cell coverage at all. Those places are becoming fewer and fewer.

Don't want to hijack that other thread but...

You're right, and this happened in 1991 and the scout in question was me. Short story, finished everything prior to 18, sent paperwork to council as they did eagle bor, council lost paperwork, sent paperwork in 2nd time, council lost it, hand delivered paperwork ON my 18th birthday, council lost it a 3rd time and told me I was SOL since I turned 18. Told me they didn't believe me that I ever did the project. SM did not get involved. Parents drove down to council HQ and had to force a meeting with council exec who was of no help and provided no reason other than, "he's 18 now". And we believed him. So that was it.

I do know that technically I can still go for the BOR through national since it has been more than 6 months since I turned 18 (21 years actually). The only limit on 18 is to complete all requirements, BOR can happen after and there is precedence for people going for eagle BOR many many years after. I have checked into it. But now I have lost my paperwork so I can't prove that I did anything (though I could dig up the old newspaper article if i can find an old paper). Have not checked if council "found" my records and if it is in their files or not. I heard many councils as directed by national destroyed old records years ago. This was Pine Tree Council, Maine - Jan-Feb 1991.

It bothers me to this day since I consider myself an Eagle Scout, but I can not say that I am when asked. But with limited time now to devote to Scouting do I spend my time fighting with a council in a different state over a 21 year old issue or do I focus my energies on the kids in my unit and make sure something like this does not happen to those kids.

When I first got my son involved in Tigers I was explaining to him about scouting and he asked, "Daddy, do you have your Eagle"? I had to say "No". So his reply was, "That's OK, I'll get mine!". That works for me (though i'd still like mine!)

Hmmm, how about council refusing an Eagle BOR after losing the paperwork 3 times, then refusing to give any sort of reasonable explanation as to their decision, then accusing the scout of lieing and never even doing the service project (despite article in paper and scouts and SM and town mgr, and lots of other people willing to say it was done) and then dragging their feet refusing BOR requests or any written reason and basically being a$holes until the scout turns 18 and then telling the scout he is SOL and tough luck.

sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread - just an old bitter wound that this thread reminded me of..

Oh and BTW, SM should have the conference but not sign off on requirements if he feels some were not met and the committee should support him. If the dad/scout want to find another troop wish them the best of luck.

It is too bad you are getting no support from the pack. Particularly at the leaders meeting, w/o a den representative there the communication between den and pack will break down. But you can not control what the Pack leaders do. You can control what your den does and I do think the success comes mainly at the den level and not the pack level since most things are done by den and not pack. Let me share my experiences as a Tiger den leader last year (2010-2011).

First I do have a scouting background although the Tiger program did not exist when I was in. I did have a bit of an advantage to all the scoutcraft things, but you definitely do NOT need to have been a scout to have or learn those skills. And in the Tiger program that is definitely not required anyway.

As far as training, all I had is exactly what you had. Whatever I could find online and then I bought all the books from the scout shop.

Tigers is supposed to be shared leadership where a different parent takes over all the meetings each month. If you have a good set of parents, your job as a Tiger leader is to just make sure someone has each month, goto the leaders meeting, and keep track of completed achievements. And then sit back and be a tiger parent.

Our plan as a den was to have 2 den meetings a month, one go-see-it plus the pack meeting. One den meeting is the den activity achievement and the other den meeting is something fun. That worked out great as it was 5 months before Blue and Gold. I handled October and then wanted parents to fill in for each Month from November on through June. At first I asked at meetings, I emailed, I asked again, I emailed again and I think I had one parent (of 8 of us) to step up and offer to do a month. So one meeting I stood up and said, "Thank you Mr. Smith for organizing the meetings and go-see-it for November. Here is a sign-up sheet that I need EVERYONE to sign up for one month. Neither Myself nor Mr. Smith will be running any more months but I will support you in every way I possibly can. Thank you." Then I set the paper down on the table with a pen and by the end of the meeting EVERY parent signed up for one month. Most had their own ideas for meetings a few did not. For those I gave them a bunch of ideas and let them choose what to do.

And we had an AWESOME year, could not have possibly worked out better. Each parent took up their month, the first few got to pick from which tiger achievement to do and leverage from their personal background, interests, and skills and do something different. That keeps the program varied as each month the boys get a slightly different set of activities.

We started with 7 boys, word spread at school and an 8th joined and then everyone returned for the next year as Wolves and we picked up 5 more. I think many were a bit timid at first to sign up for a month. Remember, it is new to everyone and nobody really knows what is going on unless they have an older boy who already went through the program. So everyone is kinda standing back waiting to see what happens. I have found that email requests are usually ignored, asking at meetings is to, but when I slapped that paper down on the table and pretty much said I expected everyone to sign up, they did.

If that does not work, another idea is to go up to each parent one by one, look them in the eye and say, "I have put you down for May to plan and run all the meetings. Do you need some ideas on what to do?" They would have to be a real !@#$% to not do it then.

But I think most want to, just might need a gentle push in that direction.

That is my $.02. If the Pack Leaders do not support you (I was lucky there, mine did) then there is probably nothing you can do. Just run your den as best as possible. If the Pack is not doing many activities as a pack, then just plan them yourself and invite the other dens.

The Tiger year is supposed to be enjoyable for your son, but also for you as it is a journey you and your son take together. If you are getting stressed out, getting no help, becoming frustrated and discouraged than your son may start to pick up on that and what he gets out of the program will suffer. If that happens you'll have a tough decision to make - maybe join another pack if that is an option. But if you are really enjoying it then your son will even more. I found that getting the parents involved kept the boys involved and engaged. One other thing I did was to have a denner system that was tied to the shared leadership. Whichever parent had the month, their son was the denner. And they had 2 responsibilities to do. They had to take home the den flag and make sure to keep it in a safe place, take care of it, and bring it back to the next meeting. They also led the den in the opening and closing Pledge, Law, and Promise. Plus they got to wear the yellow denner cords - that was a hit. Then every boy wants to be the denner but they can't be a denner if their parent is not a leader for the month. Parents have tougher time saying no to their son So you could just try that, announce a denner system that is tied to the shared leadership. Have the current month's boy get to show what he gets to do, think of something else fun. Maybe he also gets to pick a game to play, help run the meetings, give the denner some responsibility and say over what the den does. The other boys will want to do it to, so their parents will have their hand forced w/o you making any demands.

Good luck

Scoutfish, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about?

"WEll wouldn't that be awesome!"

Actually, it would be.

"Then you could officially say that my troop would only go "real" camping once a year as it is 448 mi, 7 hours 30 mins to those high peaks, and streams where the scouts will have to purify that water before drinking it."

Huh? There is all types of camping. Centerfield is "sleeping in a tent outside" which qualifies for the MB. It is absolutely not backcounty camping. It absolutely requires zero scout craft skills to do.

One of those council camp at a ballpark events is offered at my council this spring. Those high peaks, streams, and woods are about an hour away. And yes I went to the ballpark camping last year and yes I had fun. And yes I think units should go. No, I do not personally count it as camping. I may or may not go this year as I will let my son decide if he wants to go see a baseball game and a movie on the scoreboard or go sleep in the woods. I suspect he will want to go sleep at the ballpark because that is a once a year opportunity where sleeping int he woods is a weekly opportunity from may-sept. And we'll go and have a blast.

"Leaders having to take alot of time off from work."

Boy, I said something that upset you, take a chill pill. Actually, over a long weekend not much if any time off of work. It depends on the kind of work you have. If you are not willing to ever take a vacation day or a weekend day or a holiday to spend with your son on a scouting trip then I can not help you.

"Scouts missing alot of school as they would have to have 4 day weekends to do it."

Funny, in your area kids go to school 52 weeks a year? Where I am from there is thanksgiving break, xmass, feb, april, and this long time off in july and august called 'summer'.

"Of course, the scouts probably couldn't afford to go since so many parents are taking off so much work to be the adult leaders - their paychecks are lower."

Again, what are you talking about? MANY places as I describe are FREE. Only cost is cost of food and gas to drive the truck there. Some places cost $8 a night at remote campsites, lots of other options are free though as it depends on the location. Do you want to camp at an established busy tentsite that has a caretaker, or do you want to find a stealth site somewhere in the random woods that costs nothing (assuming you are the required 200 feet away from a trail and do not build a fire) And again, where is all this time off of work if you do it over long weekends, alternate adult leaders from trip to trip, or take paid vacation if you have it? Or here is a thought, let the boys do fundraisers to pay for the $0 to $8 a night camping site fees plus few bucks per meal that it costs.

"And the scouts couldn't earn the money since they would be too busy making up all kinds of missed school work due to the 4 day weekends needed to travel 448 mi, 7 hours 30 mins to go "real" camping."

You make me laugh. And please let me know where you live so I never visit there, I would not want to live anyplace where kids go to school 52 weeks a year and never have summer vacation.

"But what if your troop CO is in the mountains?"

That would be great! I wish it was.

"Wouldn't that pretty much be just camping in your own back yard?"

Yup!

"Where's the spirit in that?"

I never said camping requires one to travel long distances. You made that up.

"I guess your troop would have to drive 448 mi, 7 hours 30 mins to the Atylantic Ocean, where you'd camp on a flat beach - next door to condos, hotels, seafood resaurants galore, tourist traps, beachwear shops, and hot dog stands."

Why would I do that if my CO is in the mountains? That would be silly. Oh, and the Atlantic Ocean, beaches, condos, hotels, seafood restaurants (yummy), tourist traps, beachwear shops, and hot dog stands are only about 60 miles away. That might make for a good trip to, break it up a bit and offer variety. It wouldn't be back-country camping though. Thanks for the suggestion, maybe not so silly.

"So...has your troop ever ordered a take out pizza?"

Yes, and it is fun! Camping is not the only thing scouts should do.

"It's a shame if you did because you missed out on using a DO and that is part of the real spirit of scouting too."

Nope not a shame, it is another activity just as valuable as camping. This thread was about camping and you seem to have gone all on a hissy fit.

"But if you just do it in a pinch or one time.....well, maybe it's not such a disturbance in The Force afterall"

Seriously though what exactly is your problem and what on earth did I say that ticked you off? I meant no offense and have no idea what I said. If something offended you I apologize. I briefly compared 2 types of activities that are available to scouts both of which are things they should do. Only one counts towards camping merit badge (the ballpark) and is something I did myself last year and was allot of fun. Fun relaxed are trips are very important. The other (back-country camping) in my opinion offers an opportunity for boys to challenge themselves, to get out of their comfort zone, to experience something they may not have before, to leverage their scoutcraft skills they have learned and put them to use in the field, to do more with less, to use their brains instead of technology, to make do and improvise solutions to problems using the limited resources that nature provides. I could go on and on. And if you do that back country camping in tents that that too counts towards the MB. If you happen to spend the night in an open adirondak style lean-to (extremely common around here) than that does not count officially for the MB, but I think the trip as a whole would require more scoutcraft skills.

A scouting program that had only one and none of the other would fail. There is a time for fun activities and a time for outdoor activities. I classify sleeping in a tent at a ballpark as a fun activity. That is my opinion. I classify back-country camping as an outdoor adventure. That is also my opinion. Apparently you do not share that opinion and your are perfectly entitled to that. I don't know why you went off the deep end here.

Nobody can deny that the outdoor program in scouting as a whole has been watered down over the years, that is a fact. It is also a fact that BSA did that on purpose in 1972 and has since tried to pull back from that mistake. They are creating and pushing the various high adventure camps which offer these types of activities. But they are most likely very far away (they are for us) and cost a ton of money (more than I will ever spend). I feel very strongly that if you have the adult leadership with the relevant skills and experience and you are lucky enough to live near a natural area that provides these resources then you should take advantage of that and put on these types of trips on a regular basis.

I have no more to say on this particular subject, I gotta go plan my next camping trip.

Just another example of how the outdoor aspect of scouting now is a complete joke. Sure, there are individual units that do things right but it is up to the volunteer leaders to get the boys outdoors. Neither the program nor council nor national seem to care - if they would, requirements would be tougher and training would include more than classroom touchy feely nonsense. (like forcing the leaders out on a multi day back country adventure - BSA training should never ever ever be indoors if you ask me - even if it is raining - but thats a topic for another whole conversation)

Strictly speaking, yes this would count unfortunately. But personally, I would rather see a 4 day 3 night backpacking trek over 40 miles up and over high peaks where it is common that a night or 2 or all may be in a lean-to or remote cabin. Since your miles from any road you are cooking with your backpacking stove with food you carried and water you purified from the nearby spring or stream. If local regulations allow perhaps you are lucky enough to build and cook over an open fire. Maybe even eat some wile edible plants (But no no, cant do that in scouting anymore) But would that night count for camping merit badge? Nope, it was in a lean-to. But the night spent at the minor league ballpack with a movie playing on the big screen, and buying pizza and hot dogs at the concession stands counts.

Now I ask which scenario is really more in the spirit of outdoor camping?