neil_b

I think even a severly retarded person who has no capability of understanding the concept of a resurrection can be called a Christian on the basis of their being a member of a Christian family and/or being baptized into the faith by a Christian church.

Personally, I doubt a person with understanding can totally reject the resurrection without also rejecting the Gospel as a whole. However, there are people who don't believe in a literal physical resurrection but still leave room for a spiritual one. This makes the question more complicated.

Well, this reminds me of the campaign hats. You can still get them on-line but not in my local scout shop. They are also prohibitively expensive. Otherwise I think more people might buy them.

Personally, I think it is unfair for wood badge staff to be required to buy such an expensive item whether it is being discontinued or not.

The red jackets went well with the old red hats, socks and eplets, but green would seem to go better with the new uniforms. Plus I know few guys who would wear a red wool jacket outside of scouts, but I see lots of guys wearing green fleece jackets. As more people opt for the cheaper and more stylish green ones the demand for the red will naturally go down and I won't be surprised if they are forced to phase out the red ones.

I am also curious how the new jackets fit with the uniforming standards. Can we put a big OA patch on the back like with the red ones? Will people be putting a Philmont bull on theirs?

I agree cub leaders get burnt out. In the old days cub leaders were moms and webelos on up was done by the men. Now more often it is the same people doing both.

I think program changes are also responsible. There was another thread where it was mentioned how much harder it used to be to become a first class scout because of the signaling requirement. If you go even further back the backpacking requirements used to be very stiff. Some troops may do a lot of backpacking and hiking while others do the minimum.

Boring merit badge clinics also make it easier for boys to advance while contributing to the couch potato side of today's Scouting.

But year-round kid sports is the biggest competition for Scouting I think. Sports are challenging, fun, and viewed as cool. Scouting is seen by a lot of boys and parents as geeky.

Great stuff. Very interesting. Thanks for all the info.

I like the games book and the idea of using games that aren't just fun but also teach and/or test scout skills. I've seen a little of that in our troop, but it seems that often fun and advancement don't go hand-in-hand.

Boy Scout Games by Charles Smith (1952) also seems very good - fewer games, but more explanation of the use of games in Scouting with details on working with the PLC, etc.

Unfortunately, what I remember most from Scoutmaster training just a few years ago did not include much about the use of games. I have to admit I had trouble staying awake during the Powerpoint presentations, so maybe I slept through it.

Also, unfortunately, the merit badge work does often turn into something that more resembles school work. I wish all the merit badges could be re-written to include games related to the subject of study.

Trouble is when I started they said the reason uniform prices were so high was they were made un USA, but when they switched I don't think the prices went down.

However, before starting petition would have been better to get feedback here first. Your petition is worded to be specific to you, which does not make sense for something you want other people to sign.

I found an interesting story about morse code still being taught by the US Army and used by the USAF as of 5/3/2011:

http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123254246

Says Maj. Scott Morrison, 17th Training Group, Det. 1 Commander, FT. HUACHUCA, Arizona, "... just because Morse code is not high-tech does not mean it's useless. Many times, older forms of communication are more reliable than newer ones. Morse code might seem archaic, but it works and does not require much investment in expensive technologies. Also, many adversaries will revert to methods that are tried and true when modern communications are denied."

Thanks, uceagle72. Evidently, ham radio operators aren't required to know Morse code anymore, but it's still being used.

Also, Morse is an optional part of the Radio merit badge.

So, technologies come and go, but Morse isn't dead yet.

BTW, the games from B-P's Scouting Games (or at least some of them) got added into later editions of Scouting for Boys, and the 1948 edition of How to Run a Troop refers to games by which Yarn number they were inserted after. (If you're not familiar with Scouting for Boys, it is divided into Yarns instead of Chapters.)

Also, we played Kim's Game at Wood Badge, although like everything at WB they were using it to make a point, not trying to teach tracking skills (or even teach us how to teach tracking skills).

"BUT.... As humans, scouters and as ( if you believe) God's children, we are still bound to give gays equal respect."

I respect all people until they lose my respect through their actions. Respectable people are people who behave in a way that earns them respect.

You say you are Episcopalian (at least nominally if not practicing). Okay, so what about the Episcopal priest who left his wife and family to go live with another guy after deciding he was gay. Do respectable people behave in that way? I don't think so. He then went on to become a bishop. Do I have to respect the people who voted him in as a bishop after they made their choice? They had my respect, but they lost it through their own actions.

My personal opinion is unimportant. If you believe in God, which presumably all the Scouters here do, then what God thinks is the issue. And most of us rely largely on some religious text to understand God's will. For me that is the Bible.

If the Bible said nothing on the subject it would be easier to say it's up to the individual concience. However, it's not silent on the topic at all. I have heard many arguments to explain away the Biblical prohibitions of this type of activity, but none of those arguments have made much sense to me. I have read extensively on the topic, so I don't think that anybody is going to come up with anything new that will change my mind.

I recently bought a 1948 edition of How to Run a Troop by Ernest Young. (You can find an electronic version of the 1923 edition on-line if you google for it.) This book offers 39 weeks of pre-planned meetings for the new Scoutmaster. It is an English book, and I assume the BSA had already diverged significantly from the program in England, but it is still interesting.

The thing that really struck me about this book is that signaling (semaphores), first aid, map reading, and tracking were learned throughout the year. Tracking was learned through a number of games, especially Kim's Game. The book refers constantly to another book called Scouting Games written by B-P.

Today it seems that first aid is mostly taught at summer camp and/or at merit badge clinics, depending on the troop. Map and compass are still important, but I would think seldom receive year-round attention. Signaling and tracking are, of course, no longer required at all.

In the thread this one was spun from it was stated that at one time a lot of boys never made 1st class scout because of the signaling requirement. Maybe that is part of the reason they got rid of it, although if it were given the amount of attention it was in How to Run a Troop I can't imagine it being a problem.

In 2010 we had the historic merit badges (Carpentry, Pathfinding, Signaling, and Tracking) offered temporarily. The way these were done in our district is that boys worked on them with their troops and then got them signed off at camporee. In our troop they were taught at a couple different camp outs in just a few hours each. That didn't really seem sufficient for learning them properly.

Of these I think only signaling has lost much practical value in our modern world. Carpentry seems like something every guy should know a little about. Tracking could be used by hunters, law enforcement, and military. Pathfinder or Pathfinding was basically just about knowing your own neighborhood very well, so I can't imagine why that is not still valued.

I'd like to hear about how other troops include traditional scout skills in their programs. Do you work on skills that were phased out of the official program and no longer required? Are they worked on throughout the year, or just on an occasional basis?

"Do not pre-build your ticket. Your ticket is an agreement between you and your Troop Guide."

When I went to WB I did not feel I had enough time to think about my ticket items or enough time to discuss with my troop guide. We went from one presentation or activity to another with very little free time in the schedule.

A lot of times in life if you follow the advice of well-meaning people who say to play it conservative you will end up missing opportunities. I'm not sorry I did WB as a cub scout leader despite a lot of the boy scout leaders who would have said to wait.

Also, I would not listen to people who want to make you doubt yourself by suggesting you are doing it for the wrong reason. The only wrong reason is so you can brag to other people, but there are plenty who do it for that reason, and I'd still rather they do the right thing for the wrong reason as presumably they still got something useful out of the training.

Is there some reason you need his recommendation? I looked at application forms for several Councils on-line and none of them required approval from the unit leader.

More people these days are going to WB as cub scout leaders. So, there's certainly no reason you have to wait, which makes me wonder why he would suggest you wait. Did he give any reason?

Is it possible that you have seemed too gung-ho in the eyes of your SM? Maybe the real issue is your SM doesn't want to do high adventure? Maybe he prefers "car camping"?

B-P said the neckerchief protects the neck from sunburn. Today we have sunscreen, but I have sensitive skin and therefore still like to wear a brimmed hat. Once when I forgot my sunscreen and the only hat I had was a cap I was very glad to have a neckerchief with me.

Our former SM started out being very against this sort of thing, but at some point some leaders started bringing alcohol which they would discreetly break out late at night after the boys were asleep. He allowed them to get away with it in consideration of all they did for the troop, and probably because he didn't want to have a confrontation.

There is no doubt this was wrong. To me it is just one example of people thinking it's okay to ignore rules they disagree with. I'm sure the rationalization would be something like "no harm, no foul". But once you start rationalizing reasons to break rules it is a slippery slope.

It's not so much that people need wood badge, it's more that your unit needs its leaders to go to wood badge. Wood badge gets people to push a little out of their comfort zone, go beyond the call of duty, and so your unit will benefit greatly by its leaders participating.

Regarding what the participant gets out of it, there are aspects of Wood Badge that would benefit anybody. You learn leadership, team building, communication, etc. A lot of it is stuff you can apply to your every day life and work, not just your work in the troop. But even if you already know most the stuff they will be teaching, it is still worth it just for the experience. In the process you'll learn things about yourself that aren't on any syllabus.

After being a Scouter for almost a decade I haven't stopped learning. I'm sure there are people who've done it much longer who will say the same thing.

We use propane stoves and charcoal without lighter fluid for most cooking. We don't use lighter fluid or kerosene.

A couple adults in our troop bought the MSR WhisperLite backpacking stoves. However, WhisperLite's are a little hard to use and you do have to deal with pouring the white gas, so I would recommend to a scout or somebody who doesn't go backpacking a lot to get the isobutane canister type stove instead.

Even rubbing alcohol can be a temptation for pyros, so I've concluded it's better to avoid having a big bottle of it in your first aid kit since there are other alternatives.

So, I guess what I'm saying is you are just lucky this kid did not kill himself. And if this is happening once every couple years maybe you should be looking at the big picture of avoiding it happening in the future. The boys can't play with the coleman fuel if they don't have any.

A week delay in advancement is hardly enough time for a scout to show real improvement in reverence or scout spirit. So, is the idea to re-evaluate every week after?

The newest version of the requirements give us some help with scout spirit. They place some responsibility on the scout to come up with examples and/or references.

"Geta copy of the 3rd ed. SM handbook, both volumes. Is it dated, yes. Does it have THE foundation to the Patrol Method, YES! ( and that's for emphasis, not shouting)."

Totally agree. The 5th edition, the one with the Norman Rockwell Scoutmaster painting on the front, is also quite good, and is much easier to find. The 5th edition is one volume, but at 542 pages (for the later printings) it is still nearly three times the length of the current handbook.

Part I of the 5th edition is on the Patrol Method, and it takes up more than half of the book. I believe it has more on the Patrol Method than the 3rd edition, which has a lot of pages taken up on the history of the BSA, the old BSA bylaws, and many other details that are interesting but not of much practical value. You will also find less differences in terminology from the 5th edition.

I had one copy which I gave as a gift and bought another for myself.

"My only problem with da purely drop in 'recreational' troops is that they tend to be very adult-run."

Yeah, you may be right there. Generally in our troop the patrol leaders are expected to have a higher level of commitment. If there are no boys willing to make that commitment that will be a problem.

However, there may also be more opportunities for a boy who otherwise wouldn't step up to learn leadership because other boys are just too busy with other things. Trying to lead the troop, including the "drop in" scouts could be viewed as a challenge that will help him learn more.

The same thing is true for the adult leaders. The dad who is busy as a coach or who is consumed by his job won't have or take the time to be a Scout leader. So, more opportunity for the adults who are willing to make Scouting their priority.

I'm sure other community leaders have similar complaints. The pastor or sunday school teacher may get frustrated with the people who don't show up half the Sundays and don't keep up with their Bible readings. The high school football coach may get frustrated with the young men who don't show up for weight lifting sessions. School music teachers probably get frustrated with the kids who don't practice their instruments at home. Politicians get frustrated with people who don't take a more active part in the political process, but just complain about the decisions of those who do.

I could go on and on. Somehow you just have to learn to live with such things and try not to get so frustrated that it ruins it for you, because you cannot change all the people around you.

I strongly recommend you check out www.thedump.scoutscan.com which has a number of free online books. Read Aids to Scoutmastership by B-P. Then read the last chapter of The Scouters Job by J. Dudley Pank. Read anything else there that looks interesting.

Also, google for "boy scout troop program features" and "troop program planning".

"Off point perhaps, but note that Allah is the SAME deity as the Judeo Yahweh and the Christian Jehovah. Different names for the same God."

I once heard it said that Allah and the Christian God are the same "what" but a different "who".

If you ask people from those two religions, "What is God?" you might get similar answers. But if you ask a Christian "Who is God?" you will get a very different answer from a Muslim.

If I say "there is only one god and he is Moe" and you say "there is only one god and he is Larry" and a third guy says "there is only one god and he is Curly", all of us agree that there is one god, but do we all worship the same god? Obviously not.

I like where you're headed on this, Beavah.

B-P called Scouting a "game with a purpose", and every game has certain equipment requirements.

With sports teams they don't make everything optional. If you want to be on the team, you are going to buy the uniform, you are going to pay the league fee and tournament fees, and additional fees for equipment and facilities. So, you write the coach a check for whatever he tells you to, because he's not giving you the option. Then you still go out and buy your personal gear, because you need those to play.

You know what? Even Chicago inner city kids with little money somehow find the money to buy a basketball and they get teams together and somehow raise the funds to travel for tournaments. With most kids, it's not about money, it's just a matter of priorities and how much they want it.

When boys join the troop make it clear to the parents that the boy needs a backpack. Tell the parents that backpacking meets a requirement towards an Eagle-required merit badge. That's not forcing the kid to go backpacking. It's just setting an equipment standard with the parents. Once a boy owns one, he will probably want the opportunity to use it. Maybe he will bring it to all the camp outs.

I know what the motivation was for the big changes made in the 1970's. Newspapers of the time reported that the changes were "... reflecting a new awareness of the problems of urban life.... A scout living in an urban ghetto, for example, will be able to become a first class scout without necessarily mastering camping..." (http://tinyurl.com/5rl7uyv)

Regarding the newest Second Class requirements changes, I don't know. However, I never understood why you had to wait for a camp out to teach pocket knife safety.

Brent has a good point about the camping merit badge, but it has a lot of options. A boy could certainly get through that without ever backpacking. BTW, the backpacking option on the camping merit badge only requires 4 miles total which isn't that much more than the old First Class requirement.

In recent years our troop has introduced more variety, including some backpacking, and we've always gone to council summer camps, so it's not as if we were ever 100% car camping.

The comment by Eagle69 about backpacking at WB without proper gear makes me think maybe a lot of people don't understand the need for backpacking-specific gear until they go through it their first time. It would be better to learn that lesson on a shorter trip than on a long trek.

A shorter trip would also help build up confidence for the boys who might someday be interested in longer trips.