MomScouter

We can take girls camping in GS as long as we have the correct ratio as outlined in Safety-Wise (similar to Guide to Safe Scouting) but I won't do it unless I have more parents than is required, especially with 1st-3rd graders! But by the time they are 3rd-4th grade they understand the rules, know they will have 'kapers' (jobs to do from collecting kindling to cleaning the latrine) so it gets a lot easier.

Although I don't believe people hear about it as much, GS has a 'Gold Award' that is every bit as demanding as Eagle. There is also a Silver for Cadettes, and now a Bronze for Juniors. So there is the option to advance in that sense. There's badges for everything from Car Care to Orienteering to Babysitting to Aerospace. There is also a program for adults called 'Daisys Cachet' that is a lot like Wood badge.

I don't know how a troop could prevent a Dad from going camping UNLESS the issue was lack of available facilities at a council camp. Men have to be separate from females on campouts but can certainly be leaders and go on outings. Some of the rules may seem bizarre until you research the reasoning behind them, and I do think every council is different.

I suspect that the GS troops that do not do much in the way of outdoor activities are that way due to lack of leader training. The GS outdoor training I took was very much like the Webelos outdoor training. Our girls love camping, hiking, nature study, etc. (probably because I do too!)

evmori: This is from A Scout's Duty to God and Country 1998 by Michael F. Bowman and James Bryant

'We are concerned that we do not place a single Scout in the position of doubting the values of his own faith or feeling singled out and isolated because of his own faith. We should never create a climate were a Scout feels compelled to choose between Scouting and his religious beliefs.

Frequently, it is best if the prayers acknowledge a common maker, such as the Maker of All Things, God, the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts, or the Great Spirit, because each Scout can relate the words to his own faith. A grace, prayer or song that singles out for adoration Jesus Christ, the Prophet Elias, the Prophet Mohammed, the teacher Sidhartha (Lord Buddha) or any other name sends conflicting messages to a Scout with a different faith. He may think that he is in the wrong place or he may get the idea he is not wanted. This can be prevented by reviewing all prayers, graces and songs in advance to make sure that they do not indicate a preference for a particular faith or set of beliefs.

The key thing is that while we as Scout leaders should try to encourage a Scout to understand and exercise his "Duty to God", we must at the same time be very careful that our actions are not misinterpreted by any Scout to mean that his faith is unacceptable or that he should be in a different faith. Remember that Scouting does not define what a religion is and does not require membership in any particular religious group.'

I attend 2-3 a year. The ones I have been to are well run and informative. My biggest reason for not attending more is that not only are they about 45 minutes away, but they are in the next state and a different time zone, so when I attend I do not get home until after 10:30 (much too late for this early riser!)

Our RT's are well run so I do not see a whole lot to improve there, but I would love to see all the information presented (including all handouts)placed on the council website. Yes I know, this would be more work for someone but I can dream can't I?

Eman, thanks for your reply. I think it is different everywhere; in our area we have to go out and recruit boys for packs and troops, but with the girls we have more girls wanting to join than we have leaders for. I am involved as a Brownie leader and a BSA troop committee person, and was a Cub leader. Several of my Brownie co-leaders are also Cub leaders. We make sure our girls have a lot of outdoor experiences as well as a wide range of other activities. We tend to borrow ideas from each other as well as resources.

It is interesting how the council rules differ. In my area, I would rather deal with the GS council because they seem much more organized and responsive. GS councils hold troops accountable for reporting their finances via annual financial reports whereas BS councils have no interest in troop finances; this is Ok if you have a solid committee to oversee things but if not, no one monitors how the money is spent (I know of no chartered orgs around here that review troop bank accounts, or for that matter are even aware that they own the accounts). On the other hand, GS have a lot of weird rules that drive us nuts! But I suppose they evolved for a reason.

GS promotes a program where the girls (to varying degrees depending upon their age) make decisions about what to do with their meetings and outings. BSA does not seem to do this until the boys are in Boy Scouts. As a Cub leader we planned everything for the boys, then let Webelos decide a few things, then all of a sudden in Boy Scouts everything is boy led. GS do this from the beginning in a gradual way so that by the time they are Juniors (4th grade) they are pretty competent in making decisions and planning things.

We have had joint service projects that turned out well. We also have a lot of events where girls attend BSA events as sisters of Cub/Boy scouts, and vise versa (family campouts, Blue and Gold, fun days, Iron Horse hikes, Tasting Teas, etc).

It does seem that GS troops have a tendency to 'close' to new members whereas BS packs/troops are constantly seeking more members. Some GS troop leaders will decide they want to limit membership to a certain grade level, or a certain number of girls. This is usually due to a leader not getting much in the way of help from other parents. We accept any and all girls in our troop provided there are some adults willing to co-lead or help out, and take over the troop when those of us with older girls move up. In both kinds of units, though, there is a big shortage of adult help!

I believe that Baden Powell created Boy Scouts with the concept of being all inclusive, for all boys.

The values inherent in Scouting are in sync with Christianity and Judaism, they are also in sync with many other religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, as well as many pagan religions.

OGE, good idea.

Khepera, BSA is not a Christian organization. It is open to boys of ALL religions.

Sctmom and Bob Russell, thanks for your observations. Native American traditions are used extensively in BSA and are in fact pagan.

Rooster7,

BSA can legally promote the values it so chooses

Would you still contend this if you did not agree with the values they were promoting?

Homosexuality, in my opinion, fits in with the rest of them. It's flat out wrong.

This is your opinion. It may also be the opinion of a majority of members of BSA (or maybe not), but it is an opinion.

From the studies I have read, over half the homosexual population has had sex with a minor. They prey on our youth.

These people are pedophiles and as such have no business working with youth anywhere. But being a homosexual does not make a person a pedophile.

This is not about my willingness (or your willingness) to love others. It's about accepting God's word and condemning sin when we see it. then listen - but not to your heart, but God.

By my God I meant my interpretation of God. My religion may have an entirely different idea as to what constitutes sin than yours. In my spiritual path, God is in my heart and the heart of everyone else, he/she just needs to be found.

I wouldn't trust an avowed homosexual man with my son for one minute. Well, lets be reasonableI wouldn't trust an avowed homosexual woman with my daughter either

Rooster, maybe you home-school your children. But if not your children may very well have homosexual teachers because the law prevents sexual orientation from being criteria for hiring a teacher.

Rooster, I respect your beliefs. I think a lot of the BSA program. I am not interested in promoting any alternative agenda or changing the program that Baden-Powell envisioned. I just sincerely hope it can be made available to all boys.

Sctmom,

I expected to get slammed by a few of the posters here but I think debate is a good thing. I know my views are not popular with a lot of BSA members and I do put most of my energy into trying to make my son's program better, not getting on a soapbox! But I am not afraid to say what I believe.

In our council we have a lot of respected women leaders, in fact, our council president is a woman. We also have units where adult male leaders refuse to go on campouts if women are present.

Have a good Scouting for Food weekend! We do ours next month, we're getting ready for Klondike Derby now.

DD,

The promotion of ANY sexual agenda is outside the boundaries of the scouting program. A persons individual sexual orientation is their own business, not that of BSA.

And yes, DD, the quote I posted was from scoutingforall.com, as I stated. It was not my statement (although I do agree with a lot of it) , maybe you should go there and direct your condescending remarks to them.

I thought you said they were born that way? Did I?

I have no desire to argue with you the point of whether homosexuality is moral or immoral. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Methinks this topic is going to be around for a loooong while in BSA. It will be interesting how my grandchildren will see the outcome.

Rooster7,

When you refer to BSA and they who do you mean? I am in BSA as well as all the executives who make policy. If they do not spell out policy changes made more or less restrictive anytime they choose then how can they expect us grass roots people to follow them? There is a danger of policy being made at the whim of whoever is in the upper ranks, with no kind of open process whatsoever.

most in BSA would subscribe to the idea that homosexuality is immoral. Its BSA's free right to agree and to deny membership to homosexuals. This does not have to be printed in black and white as you contend.

How can you possibly know what most in BSA subscribe to or feel is immoral?

Does that mean BSA should allow pedophiles into the organization too?

Homosexuality is not the same as pedophilia. In fact, most pedophiles live a straight lifestyle. Of course known pedophiles should not be allowed in the organization there is Youth Protection Training to prevent this and protect the boys. Homosexuals are no more inclined to molest boys in the troop than women leaders.

it is BSA's legal right to be the arbitrator of that subjectivity and determine what they are willing to accept or not accept. Why can't you accept that?

I do accept that to a certain degree, but I am not willing to blindly accept policies made by a handful of people at the top who choose not to communicate what basis upon the policy is made, nor the specifics of the policy and how it is to be executed.

Funny, I feel the same way about folks who twist God's word. You brought the bible into this. Do you honestly believe that the God of the bible would shake his head in agreement with this sentiment?

Rooster, my God (my personal beliefs which I do not impose on anyone) tells me there are different paths to Truth. My God wants his children to love and respect one another above all else.

Okay, so you can name a few cities, and perhaps a few dozen councils. Regardless, I'm still banking that there are more of us that them. You may feel that you're defending some noble cause. I don't know your motivation. I don't condemn people who do not believe as I do. If you're a Christian, I urge you to read your bible. When you do, you "keep an open mind". God's love is great, but so is his righteousness

These few cities are large cities wouldnt you say? This is not just a handful of people. My motivation is to provide a good program to all boys who choose to be in it and not let a vague policy prevent them from participating. As for my religion, suffice it to say that it is one that advises me to listen to God within my own heart.

'Homosexuality (among other deviations) has the potential to harm my son directly (by unwanted contact) and/or indirectly (by corrupting his moral beliefs).'

Rooster, no one in Scouts should be promoting any kind of sexual agenda. A scouters or scouts sexual orientation is no ones business and should not come up anywhere in the program. A homosexual leader can no more corrupt your sons moral beliefs than a hetero leader; it is simply not a topic for discussion in the program.

Hey let's not slam 4-H! My daughter has learned an incredible amount on animal care from this organization and its volunteers. She also has a wonderful time every year showing her animals at the fair, and has learned a lot about responsibility.

I see a major distinction between the atheist issue and the homosexuality issue:

To the best of my knowledge (someone correct me if I am wrong), the Scout Oath and Law have always included references to God and being reverent. Thus as a private organization BSA is within their rights to exclude those who do not profess a belief in a higher power. However, I do believe that this is a form of religious discrimination and because of that the BSA should not expect to use public facilities or receive any kind of government funded perks.

In contrast, there is nothing in the Oath, Law, or any handbook, leader guide, or any other publication that I have ever been provided that outlines any guidelines for sexuality. I have always been told that ANY discussions pertaining to sexuality are to be deferred to the parents. I do not for one minute believe that morally straight is a reference to sexuality, but rather a directive to follow values as outlined in the Law.

If you have an open mind, please consider the following taken from www.scoutingforall.com:

In a letter sent to James Dale, the BSA said that they had expelled him because he did not adhere to "the standards of leadership established by the [bSA], which specifically forbid membership to homosexuals." But where is this anti-gay "policy"? It is found nowhere in official BSA publications. Even the Supreme Court justices remarked that "It remained, in effect, a secret Boy Scout policy" and this policy ". . . appears to be no more than a private statement of a few BSA executives . . ." In fact, the BSA states officially that "[n]either the charter nor the laws of the [bSA] permits the exclusion of any boy... " . . . our membership shall be representative of all the population in every community, district, and council."

Although the BSA has clearly stated that sexual matters are "not construed to be Scouting's proper area," they have also stated that they "teach young boys who are Scouts that homosexuality is immoral." Even though some people in Scouting believe this, especially some religious groups that charter troops, many other religious groups do not adhere to this belief and, in fact, believe to the contrary that discrimination against homosexuals is wrong." The BSA bylaws state that the BSA is "absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward religious training" and in fact it " does not define what constitutes duty to God or the practice of religion." Yet,despite the BSA's denials that it addresses sexual matters or that it espouses a articular religious doctrine, the BSA has condemned homosexual identity, the specific moral doctrine of only some of its religious supporters! We are afraid that the Boy Scouts of America is being taken over by the relgious fundamentalists who use the Scout Law and Scout Oath as weapons of hatred,

discrimination, and bigotry to hurt people who are gay in the same way they use the bible, Jesus Christ and God to hurt gay youth and adults. This type if behavior is what is immoral.

The BSA bases its exclusion of gays on the Scouts Laws that a Scout is clean, and morally straight. But the Boy Scout Handbook itself says the following about cleanliness:

"Swear words, profanity, and dirty stories are weapons that ridicule other people and hurt their feelings. The same is true of racial slurs and jokes making fun of ethnic groups or people with physical or mental limitations. A Scouts knows there is no kindness or honor in such mean-spirited behavior. He avoids it in his own words and deeds. He defends those who are targets of insults."

About "morally straight," the Handbook also says, "To be a person of strong character, guide your life with honesty, purity, and justice. Respect and defend the rights of all people." Clearly, it seems to us that a gay person who is being "honest" about who he is and who strives for justice is "morally straight," and that the non-gay who defends his rights is also "morally straight." Regarding this Law, the Scoutmaster Handbook says, "A boy's courage to do what his head and his heart tell him is right," is moral fitness.

In response to Rooster7s comment Your statement infers that there may be a significantly large enough contingent to evoke these changes. I don't buy it. By the way, I'm fairly certain that most of these councils are from the San Francisco and New York area. Councils who have challenged the policy do include San Francisco and New York, but they also include Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, and Los Angeles , as well as many others and individual units. Check out the scoutingforall site for more info.

Finally, in regards to Girls Scouts: I have been involved in Girl Scouts many more years than Boy Scouts. I have no desire to know the sexual orientation of any leader or girl. It is none of my business. GSUSA agrees. I have never known of any problems because of this. GSUSA is very diligent in doing background checks to screen out child molesters but sexual orientation of leaders or girls is simply a nonissue.

Merlyn, I appreciate your comments and information. I find a lot of what you have said to be very logical. Discussion is good, dissenting opinions thought provoking. The topics you have presented need to be discussed by all scouters because they are not going to go away. There is dissension among scouters about the atheist issue as well as the homosexual issue; whole councils have petitioned the national office for change.

I am interested in comments and observations from those adult volunteers who are involved in both Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts. Does your experience with one organization impact the other? Do you prefer one org policies over the other? Have your units ever done any joint projects or outings?

If you mean color bands for the arrow, I think they are:

orange - Tiger

red - Wolf

dk. blue - Bear

gold - gold arrow point

silver - silver arrow points

lt. blue - Webelos

yellow - Arrow of Light

I separated each band with some pinstriping from a body shop. I got a kit on the internet which contained a nice plaque to mount the arrow as well as an engraved plate.

FScouter, you are absolutely right about getting help. Sometimes I forget this in my enthusiasm! Starting small is the way to get parents involved and is in fact how I got started.

Chippewa,

Thanks for the feedback. The troop is only a couple of years old, it was started by the SM so my guess is he plans on sticking around. For the most part we work OK together, at times he seems to want to impose his will on certain things but for the most part he plays by the rules. He has annoyed a number of other people though, including a couple of very good ASM's who have left for good over disagreements about how the money is handled. This is one of my problems as well; in my previous pack we used money mgmt. software and a report was produced every committee meeting, as well as made available to all parents. In this troop the Treasurer does it all by hand so we do not get reports often, I do keep asking for them and have even volunteered to help set up the software to use them. I do not try to run anything in the troop that I should not run, I believe the boys should plan their own activities, etc. I do offer a lot of suggestions for service projects, activities, etc, and ask the PLC what they need from us.

I understand what you say about building trust with the parents. I went through this with the pack, it took a while and eventually they came around and now there are a lot of ready and willing adult committee members there. What I see in this troop (my son and I have been in it about 6 months) is that a lot of trust was lost before we joined - money issues, lack of communication, planning one thing and doing another, personality conflicts between adults. I am trying to smooth things as much as possible.

Our older boys are actually great, the younger ones really look up to them when they are around. It would be cool if when they turn 18 they will become ASM's.

My hope is to help build things to the point that the Webelos will want to join this troop. I know if they do, a lot of good adults will come along and build the committee. Quite honestly, I worked so hard with the pack that I was hoping Boy Scouts would provide a breather...I thought, 'boy run! no more planning derbies and regattas and menus and den meetings...'. I'm not burnt out but sure wish things were smoother! As long as my son enjoys it we will stay with the troop and perservere!

Thanks for all your comments. Our troop does have a plan to go on a campout every month of the year cannot always follow through due to lack of boys willing to go! (Example - last campout, 2 boys working, 1 not allowed to go on 'cold' weather campouts because he got sick last year, 1 didn't go because it was his birthday, 2 others MIA). This happens every month! Scoutmaster strongly endorses outdoor program, not a problem there. Main problem seems to be lack of parental support for program. (At the annual 'parents meeting' last month NONE showed up! Probably because in the newsletter I said we would be electing committee positions!) On a positive note, last nights meeting went well, my son and a few others almost at First Class and rarin' to go on merit badges, all seem excited about Klondike Derby.

Do other troops have parent problems? How do you get parents involved and get them to see what a positive thing Scouts is for their sons? We can't even get them all to the Courts of Honor.

Rooster,

I agree with everything you wrote. But what about my son who wants to go elsewhere now? He is getting frustrated and bored. The last campout was cut short because the SM got sick and there were no other adults there except 1 ASM, so (all 4 of the boys there) had to pack up and come home. They had talked about this campout for some time, the weather was great, yet we could not get other boys or parents to attend. I fear that it will be the same with the upcoming Klondike Derby. I have told my son to wait until he is with the troop a year and then make a decision, but I hate to see him get so discouraged.

I have a felt red vest and it is hot and itchy in warm weather! I made my son a red vest out of cotton and he used that in Cub Scouts for all his patches. I am going to make him another one for Boy Scouts, very large so he can grow in to it. Our Scoutmaster wears a tan vest with his patches. Is there a rule that the vest must be red, or for that matter does it have to be a vest or can patches be dispayed on a jacket?

My son is 11 and has been with his troop about 6 months. He is enthusiastic about Scouting, looks forward to campouts and events, participates in fundraisers and everything else. There is another boy (also 11) who also participates in everything. The problem is, the rest of the troop of about 9 (they come and go)does not seem very enthusiastic about anything. The 3 older boys are always busy with work and social activities. The younger ones show up for campouts and other things sporadically. I am committee chair (no one else wanted the job), and cannot get a committee to all show up for a meeting or get new members to join. Parents seem apathetic. The scoutmaster just got a new job and is not able to be at all the meetings. He says the troop is boy run, but I see plenty evidence of his imposing his will an what the boys do. In short, my son and the other 11 year old, as well as me and the other boys parents, feel like we are banging out heads against the wall trying to get things going! Any other troops in our rural area are quite a distance away; not too far to go to, but out of school district. Our choices seem to be to stick it out with this troop and try to get everyone motivated, or to move to another troop away from our area. (Our Cub Scout pack went through the same kind of stuff about 3 years ago, I became Committee Chair of the pack and worked like a nut to get things going and it worked - now there are a lot of parents involved and the pack is in great shape. These same parents will be looking for a troop in a few years and I would sincerely like to be part of a good one that their sons would like to join! ) Any advice?? My son wants to move to a more active, better organized troop.