momma_bee

Actually, no, my son is at camp and can't help plan.

The PL who would do what he is asked is the child of the mother that doesn't care for me*. If I said to that young man, here is a blank piece of paper, create a shopping list and we will meet you at the store to write the check to pay the bill - he'd be there and have the cooler ready (because mom nagged him to take it)

He and my boy have been together since diapers - I know what he can do and what he WILL do. (two different things)

I knew the troop was in trouble when then 14yo SPL told me at camp he didn't need to tell the 11yo scouts what to do at camp because no one told him - and his parents backed it up. And, I two campers who knew more than the SPL (mine and the PL above)

Because I am the wife of the then ASM I shut my mouth and held it shut for 4 years. The other SM (who switched places with hubby when personal issues became a problem) said to let the boys do what they want.

I believed that letting them see it done RIGHT for once would encourage them to do it again.

It is probably too late.

The problem was I kept my mouth shut for too long and opened it up to the wrong group of people.

I commented to someone the other day that he heard me preach that sermon many times. Preaching it here doesn't help the troop, it just hurts my message.

*let me tell you why. He child did something stupid. Another one saw it and told his mom, his mom told me and I went over to the parents and said 'this may have occurred, make sure he knows better'. No names. Then I got the call about my son (who wasn't involved at all) and how he and I both lie about her son. This was many moons ago and I think that my response in the years that have passed earned their respect. But I endeavor to keep her away from any place she could hold my son back - in case I'm wrong. I'm sure that is a mistake too.

Actually, you're side note explains my frustration as well as everyone elses.

There was very little in the packet. I'd have to find my copy for specifics, but the 'rules' looked like what you would tell a camper (follow procedures, you can't do this-n-that, follow scout law, follow 2DL, don't drink, don't smoke) In fact I had to sign a paper that said he was or was not allowed to smoke in a smoking area. Um, under 18? not allowed. Over 18, doesn't need his parents permission.

The contract does state 11am Sunday to 11am Saturday. Orally, once he got to camp he found out there are two rotations, one can leave Friday night after campfire this week - the other stays until Saturday. The next week it switches. When this was discussed at the training session, he told us he only got to go home every other week. He misunderstood and it wasn't in writing. We looked. It took until he could LEAVE to make it make sense to him becuase the other scouts were explaining it.

There was no procedure for 'might be late' My boss has one. I'm supposed to be there at 7 and if I can't this is what I do. And I will walk in (when I go back after lay off) and tell him I will be late on the 31st and will work late to make it up. That is our procedure.

My son had none.

Meanwhile, y'all seem to think I am a whiny, needy Momma who needs to cut the apron strings and just suck it up and give up what plans I have made because I allowed my 15yo to get a job, now I need to follow HIS employers rules over all. That isn't true - it isn't family. My son needed to work it out. He did.

The response at camp was still flippant. I was surprised, maybe a little dismayed. I'd like it if EVERY religious choice was accomodated. And you are right about volunteers needing to be handled differently.

He should have been told 'if you are late, this will happen' not 'it's your choice'

And he shouldn't need to wait two months to read a letter to learn if his choice was better or worse than the ones who left food garbage in a can for a week, refused to clean latrines. Left camp without telling the director... They will be back - they are good with the boys, good with their program, good for the camp. You won't agree but I know the director will do just that.

But you know, maybe the total of one half-hour and two requests to be late for church/family may keep him out of a job next year. That will be fine. Unfair, but ok with me.

I was surprised that in a council that reschedules roundtable if it is on Maundy Thursday there wasn't some latitude to attend church on a specific day.

I am not trying to change anyones mind.

I was surprised.

It is really that tough to say that you are glad to hear that it went ok? After all, I said he received permission. I posted the update for those that are interested.

I give up...I need that falling over in a faint smilie I use elsewhere.

I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel. I'm trying to put the wheel on the cart.

There are five boys in the troop. Total. If we do not camp the weekend of the 15th, we cannot camp until the second weekend in October. And, there is already an activity for the 3rd and 4th weekend for two of the boys.

The SPL has never led a PLC. He has never camped with us (he is a transfer and doesn't 'need' camping anymore. He is unlikely to come.

The PL will do whatever I ask, and is iffy to good on attending camp.

The Troop Guide never led a PLC, never oversaw a campout and hasn't camped with the troop in two years. His mom planned all the camp outs he went to, except summer camp.

This leave two boys as scouts. One is at work and cannot be anywhere until after lunch time on the 15th (hence, have a campout where he is to eliminate travel time)

The other has never camped with us and has been taught by an ASM that is no longer involved in the troop that you can sleep on the living room floor and it is camping, as long as you pitched a tent in the garage. He will come to a meeting if dragged. He is unlikely to camp but if it is fun and doesn't effect track and he has a ride, he may do it.

So, the likely planner will be the PL, maybe with Scout 2 to help. The likely campers will be PL, Scout 1, and MAY BE Scout 2, if I drive him up.

The likely adults are the SM, (who is my hubby) and me.

If the SPL is there, he needs to do his job. If he isn't, the PL can step up. If neither of them show, then Scout 2 may plan or may bail. At which point, there is NO planning for any boys who can go, but can't be there to plan. But Scout 2 may just step up to the plate and surprise us if given the chance. Is there a non-POR title for doing that job? That is the only question I asked.

Oh, why bother?

I should just turn in my patch, tell my hubby he is done too and take the son to the next town over. The troop will fold but hey, at least I let it go on its own boy led way rather than trying to help.

It may be worth the work, it isn't worth the hassle.

I know it was 4am when I started typing. So sorry it was unclear.

And I'm tired now, and I know I sound short.

I just don't get it. I described the same round wheel y'all use. I am willing to jack up the cart and put it on - I just thought I may be missing a cool name for that hubcap.

This list I was going to give would look like this...

Friday - Setup, Opening, Anything else? Saturday. Breakfast? Who what how? Morning activity? Lunch. Who what how. Afternoon

Oh you get the idea. I can give my troop of 6th grade girls a blank sheet of paper and they can plan a weekend - how much help would a 10 grade boy need?

His troop - his SM was at the church service, otherwise, they wouldn't know he was there, instead of being driven to his job that is unrelated to his troop.

His employer? We (he and I) are still up in the air about how there is a double standard for being late, being off, 'working' verses showing up and people who pull pranks and lie about money.

A scout is reverent, he is also trustworthy, loyal, courteous, (it seems to me there is a list) I see lots of boys on staff at that camp who have fallen short, haven't we all.

If they make or break staff on being on time, and keep kids who break scout law in favor of kids who follow it - then I'll be glad to have my unemployed son at home next year.

If they realize they have hired KIDS who are at the mercy of their parents schedules and often make impulsive decisions and keep around those who lead and follow with a heart for scouting then I won't need to teach him to drive next year until August.

I posted an update because I, as a mom, have a happy son who, as a staff member, recieved latitude where it was needed.

The only negative impact I expect to see is that he didn't lead as much as follow so they may not ask him to lead as many activities. At his age, that is ok - he is still learning anyhow. In other words, next week, will his director say 'you didn't do this-or-that during cub week' and necessitate him saying that "I cleaned the showers, emptied garbage cans, watched the water hazard (to prevent cubbies from playing in the torrential stream) and provided support at nature and sci tech. None of that was specifially assigned accept watching the stream one day, so she may be unaware. But she would have a list of who led and who was assistant at each area.

And, I am still surprised that, at our camp, worship isn't given more focus.

since the computer ate my first attempt at this post and I am out of time.

The troop needs to learn how to lead. We have been doing things wrong and that has to change.

Due to school, work and family schedules, there is one weekend that looks ok for the Scoutmaster to camp. My plan (as nagging wife of SM, not CC) is to book a site that is easy for us, plan for the adults and INSIST the boys plan for themselves.

The problem is the SPL and PL have never stepped up to 'lead' anything. (lets not digress onto that topic). We plan by as a group. The group cannot all be in the same place at the same time.

I envision 2 boys coming to plan, a 3rd being late and 4-5 being at camp. Most likely 4. Now, they could bring friends, but since they don't lead well as it is, it is unlikely they would be prepared or have much fun.

So, if there are two or three boys there, I'd like to see someone step up and take charge as to the menu, the shopping, the equipment, etc. You know, lists, notes, requests.

I do not want to see them hand a list to mom so that she can buy everything and add what they have missed.

I do not want to see them waiting for us to tell them what they will be doing.

I am not opposed to handing them a checklist of things to consider with what may sound like obivious options to you. {I'm think a blank page that says Breakfast, menu, cook - Activity (call ranger about service project? take a hike on the new trails? fishing? Scout skills? Which ones - who???)) but if it is left blank - empty it shall be.

But, what do I call this Scout? We can't do new elections and call him a PL. (and it could be the existing PL) I don't want to even say PL for the campout because the parents don't grasp the idea that a POR includes some Responsiblity - they seem to think that we will tell them what to do every week, every camp out and as long as they do it, they are fine. But, I want to have a person who is the go-to Scout for this trip. Can I just say that 'Scout Fred is in charge' or is there a temporary title I have missed??

(OK, here is the situation, this Momma/Wifey is mad and knows what needs to be done. Between a wedding, a birthday, Girl Scouts, OA, football, band and cross-country the only way they will camp before mid-October is if we set up at the scout camp as it closes and move my son out to home at the same time - or as far as the troops campsite. So, I have to be there, we will need one car for troop stuff, one car for son's stuff. If I'm not needed I could leave, but that would leave me to unpack the boy - not the best idea. If I stay, I can keep the girl out of the way - or help keeping the helicoptor parents out of the way - which ever. And yes, the girl would need to go. Sorry - it isn't perfect, but if there aren't any other adults to go, it is the way it needs to be. She is self sufficent and if it is only me and dad, she can work on Girl Scout stuff)

I have no problem hiking with my sweetie. Playing cards with the SM. Taking DeeDee and going home since there is two-deep leadership? Leading adult skills review.

But I don't want to do for these boys.

My thoughts on parents at BOR's are similar. My objects would be based on experience and I have at least 3 or 4 sets of parents that would answer for their son if given the chance.

Which made me chuckle at the typo. Insight is vision and what I knew you meant, but INCITE, to cause to rise up, seems like what would happen in our troop. Parents at the BOR would INCITE me to rise up and squash their need to speak for their perfectly capable sons.

However, an adult equivent of a BOR would be interesting. "Your son has earned his First Class Rank - what activity did he talk about the most? How has he dealt with any problems with the patrol, homesickness, etc. What would he want to see us do in the future?"

That works

It also would mean that Girl Scout's renamed Leave No Trace for their own use, but hey...

I want my DE to either be a source of information or able to direct me to the answers.

If he wants to add 'planning' to 'knowing, or knowing what he doesn't know' then he needs to remember that he is planning for the Boys (and by extension, parents)

If the DE in question changed dates because the SE told him too, he should share that info.

If he is in over his head, he should know who to go to for help treading water and getting to shore.

For example, I am good at the newsletters, forms, and recordkeeping. I offered to condense files before they went out. I had a DE who sent a very large MS Publisher file to folks on dial up and wondered why they didn't receive it and was upset they didn't forward it to the parents in their units... UMMM...

He should not spend every night away from home unless he spends every day there - I don't believe for one minute they were hired to work 24/7.

It is fun to try and guess. If Tia doesn't beat me too it, I may call and ask.

M____ I__________ Contaminated Environment?

Guilty as charged. Anyone who can read a list of suggested questions and make insightful notes / suggestions works for me.

I have called other troops to provide adults at times.

We have 5 boys in the troop. With one exception, they each have at least one parent registered, sometimes two. But, I struggle with explaining (AGAIN) that mom, dad, stepdad, guardian, and mom's new husband are all related and cannot serve. We work hard to make sure that the SM / ASM who did the conference is NOT on the BOR and that the parents are not. I also screen those with an axe to grind. This makes it tough, and finding one for my son neigh impossible.

(let's see, I'm out, his dad is out, the ASM who did the scoutmasters conference is out, and so is that person who considers his momma to be a lying liar who lies)

If it helps the rest of us, the requirement reads "Review what M.I.C.E. stands for and how you should follow it when cooking and cleaning up."

And, I will admit reading it this summer and since I was clueless, deciding it was a requirement that we would skip. (yes, that option exists in Girl Scouts, sometimes, sort of)

I found the mouse cooking tips too. Scary.

Measure Ingredients Carefully and Efficently????

Joined the church the other day. BigBee stood up as our family was welcomed.

He talked to the program director and said wanted to do this and may be late and this time she said 'no problem' and we were about 1/2 hour late at most.

Did this effect him negatively? I don't know. This marked the transition from Boys to Cubs and he didn't have a 'job' for the first session since he wasn't there to volunteer. He became a Boy Friday as it were. I don't know if that holds for the second session as well or not.

I hope that at the end of Cubs there isn't a perception that he didn't 'do' anything but other than that, he said nothing was said to him.

As a by-the-way. I couldn't change the date. It was picked by the class adn we all said it was good. This was before 1) he said he wanted to be there and 2) the PD was a bit iffy. I just never considered that Scouts would hold it as a mark against his character.

Never mind - I was thinking sporting beltloops because I was thinking Derby and Cubs.

We have had sports days for our troop where they invite up Cubs, perhaps your son could plan something along those lines.(This message has been edited by momma_bee)

I want to say THANK YOU for posting the scoutlander link.

We tried a google group last year, no one read it. Tried a google page but locked it, folks 'couldn't' log in because they never got the email and couldn't get it to work (look at me trying NOT to roll my eyes)

This site looks good. That is, it almost looks parent proof.

And thank you so much WolfMama for posting to your packs site. My DeeDee looked at it and decided she wants to run one for her troop and I think I will let the BigBee start one for his. I'm sure there is an age thing and I will need to go on record, but they can do the work.

About this 'scoutlander'

It claims its intention is for scouts to be able to take over...how is the admin / login handled? I ask this because it may be doable - but I have two troops and may want to pass them off in two different directions.

OK, I thought there may have been a change since I looked that up many moons ago.

Thanks for straightening me out.

(We had a den do just that once, and I found out it was wrong about 8 months after the fact. As an aside, they were Bears, earning money to purchase their scrapbook supplies from Creative Memories to meet that requirement. They were only $100 short of what they needed and the DL was bragging how well they did on that sale. I still roll my eyes when I see her - not very scouty of me but is is more kind and courteous than I'd like to be)

mmm, Gertrude Hawk - can you send me a dark chocolate, please???

I didn't think a den could do its own fundraiser. Could someone clarify?

We have done well with a local supplier of stromboli's. The band does pies that are delivered the week before Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter. This seems to appeal to the 'last minute buffet' needs we all have.

We did it for the 'on-time' scouts as well. The prizes were usually donated by parents. I had a mom that would donate her kids 'unused' toys. Grandma treated them too well and she would clean and find stuff still in the package or would put up things and then they'd lose interest and she cleaned stuff out. Win-win.

We had tried a totem and beads for the other stuff (uniform, opening) and it became a hassle.

When we did them, an adult cut a slit in the box after the parts were removed. Then the boat was built and the medal rudder (is that the right part) is set in the slit to hold the boat up. The box can be taped to a table if needed and the box holds it for painting purposes.

There wasn't anything like that mentioned on the list BigBee had.

I wonder if it has to do with keeping your legs well covered to protect from bugs and such.

Regarding the patches: Our DE took this over for a while. Same set up, let a Scout design it, then order the exact amount we need (no expensive leftovers for sale for a quarter) Keep in mind the design needs to be cleaned up, because I doubt it was clear and camera ready. So, you have a design bouncing back and forth between the artist, someone at council itself, and the company. Then the order is processed. Suddenly it is Program Launch in June and then no roundtables. Yep - it is lousy to wait until fall, but that part sounds realistic to me. Especially if there was any hold up in the process.

I've seen events cancelled the night before due to lack of interest. It stinks.

I can't imagine being a newlywed and needing to share my hubby with meetings almost every evening, office hours during the day, and a few weekends a month as well. Throw in a week at training here and there and, well, hubby better pick me over fun times at work.

I forgot I had a fun story - rather than a 'they got away with it' story.

We were at Cub Resident Camp and I had a tent to myself. I woke up at just-before-dawn to hear 'rustle, rattle' that became a 'rustle, rattle, crunch, crunch' coming from under my tent. It was early enough I figured I could wait it out. Soon a lot of rustling was going on and some growling added it. And the distinct smell of eau'du'skunk. That was when I saw the flashlight. Back and forth until it shone under my tent.

"Go back to your tent boys."

- Mrs Bee, there is something under your tent

"Go back to your tent boys."

- But Mrs Bee, we can see it under there.

"I know boys, go back to your tent NOW"

- But Mrs Bee, it looks like a skunk.

At which point, they decided to go back to their tent and watch.

It seems that one critter got ahold of a bag of bugles and drug it under the tent platform and another one decided to share. A skunk and a raccoon came out from under and I have forgotten who won that battle.

Come to think of it, one of those fellows just made Eagle, I could have used that story.

I have no ideas, but I'll tell a few stories...

We talked about 'no food in the tents' at summer camp and my 1st year scouts bear-proofed their food, until it was gone the next day. Meanwhile, my SPL was spending lots of time in his tent with the flaps down. On Wednesday, family night, his folks came up and asked him if he needed more bread, peanut butter or jelly. Seems he had the fixin's under his bed and was making food when he was hungry. I repeated that there wasn't supposed to be food in the tents and Mom informed me it was fine, after all, nothing had got into it all week and cited the brand of plasticware that always has worked for her. I told her to take the stuff home and she agreed. On Saturday, he pulled the container out from under his bed...I told the SM (not my PBee) and as far as I know, nothing was done.

Two years later, we went again and I announced I was not bear proofing food. No way, no how, and I wasn't taking any food up, or supplies to do so. I had a mom all over me six ways to Sunday about how I had to do it because she didn't want her son drug out of his tent. I explained that either he should not bring food, or he should come prepared to bear proof it himself. To the best of my knowledge, nothing came up, but on Wednesday...Mom brought food up to cook and then just left it on the table when she went home. I put it in my van and locked the door. I sent it home on Saturday and explained that was the only thing I had to bear proof it and said that boys couldn't get into my van. Which was true, I had it locked...

Different Mom's each time but the PB&J boy was there, without his PB&J.

The in-between year? BigBee and I went by ourselves and the site next to us was skunked. He told everyone and it was a food related issue.

I just remembered another thing we did - we gave parents the option of having a 'family' account if they had 2 or more boys in the pack. I think at that point, if one bridged and another was still in the Pack, we would have given them the decision as to how much money was passed forward.

This allowed grandma to help both of her grandsons with one tin of popcorn. Very important when that was all she could afford.